What a great idea!
I'll tune in at 8ET!
QOP

hmmm.....3 Scorpios, a Leo, 2 Geminis and a Libra. I vote for the Libra.

PS...the 3 most common of the presidentials in terms of signs are Libra, Scorpio and Aquarius I think....although it is only from my memory of going thru an encyclopedia and writing them all down.

First glance; Kucinich has scorpio moon 15o!
And isn't his 16o cancer mars, 4 H conjunct the US sun?
15o17 Libra sun in the 6th H CONJUNCT chiron10o15 Libra. He's a healer! all about serving
QOP

Hi QOP, I'm running with tonights transits against their natal charts. I probably can't juggle Secondary Progressions and Solar Arc, too many charts to flip between!

I expect this to be a pretty good night for Richardson, Sun and Mercury returns or close enough with Mercury 1 degree passed his natal.

IF nothing else we can bemoan their answers together!

Back later.

What a great idea, Morgana and Sally!

I'm here ! Whoop whoop!!

Ah yes Chris Dodd has a new haircut, up styled.. punky

Wow Richarson is a big guy!

Dennis looks to have some good aspects with t. Merc. sandwiched between his n. Jup and Mars.

Hey Hillary is as height challenged as Dennis!
QOP

Ouch hitting Hillary early Mars Rx. S trine her Chiron, wounded or wounder?

Obama puts me to sleep. What did he say ?

UUUh me too I didn't hear him......

Hhaha Wolfie lost control of the children.

Edwards has Merc. inconj his moon and jup, hmm.. Bang Hill and Edwards. All that Gemeni there, Edwards may speak to the heart of the people, interesting.

I love Biden!

Good on Richardson, Merc is his friend.

Go Johnny go........ ( He DID attend the Bilderberg a few years ago!)
And the one I would like to have a beer with is Bidden scorpio taurus moon , no suprise.......but he doesn't get my vote!
QOP

Slippery buggers. I'd love to join you for that beer. My vote is all over the map, leaning hard toward Kucinich on principle.

They're all smarter than WOlf!
Q

Wow Richardson, Kucinich, hot diggiy. Go Dennis! Bang

Spirited debate.

Bang Kucinich on Edwards.

What happened to China and tainted toys? Edwards slid sideways.

Corporate Democrat. ouch

I'll take any one of them they sure are heads above any Rpug
Q

Hill still seems to be stumbling.

Good debate. They're off on a short break. Hope some of the lurkers will chime in their thoughts and opinions!

Uranus is inconj Hll's Mars, Pluto conj in Leo, 11th house.

Just got this from DFA

This evening, the Senate Democrats finally stood up to President Bush. And it was all because of DFA members like you.

Senate Democrats are now refusing to let Bush get away with his latest egregious abuse of power. They voted unanimously for a bill WITHOUT retroactive immunity to the major telecom companies who broke the law.

Everyone expected Dianne Feinstein to vote with the Republicans, but because of your work Senator Feinstein did the right thing and voted for the bill without retroactive immunity.

Hooray!
Where is everyboy? I'm to astrologically challenged to contribute as I wouldlike.
Q

Hah, astrology is energy. What do you feel or sense is happening. I now a lot of folks who just read energy lines and freak out with the numbers and symbology.

May be just you and me... Sally will be on in a bit, still working.

Restoring Civil Liberties, I sure wish they'd ask the Repugs the same meaty questions.

My husband says they're drawing blood, two for impeachment.

Biden, t mars trine n mars. Their ya go, bang bang bang.

I think Biden and Richardson and Kucinich are having a good night, Richardson has sounded like a Kucinich a couple times.

I FEEL that tonight is a break through! Best most energetic, honest debate I've witnessed in many a year! Like a boil has broken.including the audience!
Same energy I'm noticing around home here!
MArs retro? will elaborate late...... QOP

Kucinich has t mars in a waning square to his sun. Wonder what is making him stand his ground tonight.

Dodd still doesn't stand out, not enough agression ? T Mars is trine his Merc., oh there ya go, T Saturn is square his Sun, squshed.

Good Obama has noticed the theft, has Hillary?

Yeah! Meaty. Blood in the water. Drama. We're getting to really see them. Not as scripted as they'd like to be.

Hil BLEW IT!

These guys are smoking crack. That cap will slaughter me. I'm bailing my damn'd mortgage out!

SHe's real dodgy!

Just got in from work. WOW O WOW!! this is exciting on many levels. I feel like i know each one of you tonight-I mean who else do you hang out and discuss politics with except your friends and family??
Lets keep it up-the letter writing, the blogging, the demonstrating. The Dems are much livelier tonight and I think that is because they are afraid of what we might do if they keep up the bs program they were trying to sell us.

Could you explain? the cap.

To finance the Social Security bail out Obama wants to raise the cap on those making over $97,500.00 which equates to a mongo tax increase. Most two family incomes make that and they're saying only 6% of the country reaches that level. Where I live it's too low to buy a house in the whole freakin state, (California), it would be financially painful for the middle class.

Thanks...foreign territory totally me ( 8,999.00)
OK we have to go after the corporations!

On my level if I earn extra and have payroll taxes taken out, even tho I am on SS, it is also financially painful, (guess I'm lucky because I got myself into a paid for house before the prices increased so dramatically. But it means paying the utility bills on a rolling blackout principle.
Q

But won't people be taxed individually? And if there are no caps won't we also see those in that top 1% where the heavy money is? And yes can we make it clear that corporations are not people and the owners need to pay the fair share.
Morgana, are you thinking that middle income earners would rebel against a hike in the social security tax?

I live in a way small house in the redwoods, woodstove and propane tank. Very fixer upper, really pathetic actually..sigh and we're not so spry but I work for a company in San Francisco that allows me to telcommute. Prices are ridiculously high here, but I love the redwoods and Santa Cruz mountains. My husband is retired for health reasons so I carry the household. My son came home to help me out, which is not always the case. He's getting married next month, big changes on the way.

Talking heads are panning Hillary.

Biden was great tonight, Richardson and Kucinich stood out more then usual.

Edwards cocky.

I didn't watch the debate but now I wish I did. I love the commentary here. Whatever did Hillary say or not say to "blow it"? How did Edwards do overall? I like Kucinich too. Hell, I prefer them all over any republican.

Yup, when the very fat cats aren't paying their fair share. The Corporations are making bank off shore on some island and not paying a lead nickel.

The weight should not be shifted to the people. Course if they kept their fingers out of the Social Security Lock Box that Al Gore talked about we wouldn't be in such bad shape.

More importantly because of the huge unemployment and under payment of wages, the SS base isn't getting any increase. More jobs for the people and the problem would take care of itself.

Hi Teresa you can probably get the live stream off cnn.com or the replay of it.

Really a very interesting debate. Hillary just has some much area to aim at, her PAC ties with big Pharma and also she sits on the board of Wal-Mart, makes ya wonder how the lead tainted toys, and hundreds of thousands of pets shipped from China to their stores lets her sleep at night. Then there's NAFTA that has cost every man his job, that bit her. Her voting to give Bush the keys to Iran..

Morgana, What prompted your comment "corporate democrat" above? My daughter called & I missed a bit.
So Hillary can't go there because her contributers are the big players.....she kept trying to turn taxes into Med. insurance issue.
But Corporate tax input has dropped from 33% of the total, to 13%. Power is unregulated, medical field is out of control. If there was regulation, Kensyan model rather than Hyack,/ Freidman, people would have more income to put in to housing/recreation!
When we have that beer with Joe I want it to be at your house, it sounds wonderful!
Q

Morgana, about the corps going off-shore and having mailboxes for addresses Thom Hartman is forever talking about the need for tariffs- we could say Okay!1 we agree that you do not live here and we sill tax you accoringly.
All of this is revolutionary now and I imagine that we are going to see some very mean, lowdown, dirty actions from the people running the corporations and therefore the government, the military. Under Bush there has been huge inroads into making the US a private business.
QOP, the idea of people paying taxes on SS is outrageous and these are the types of laws that must be addressed. I see so much of this in my work-I call it balancing from the bottom-an old Republican trick.

I just can't help thinking that, in spite of it all, Hillary, with her greater name recognition & with Bill behind her, is probably the most electable (sorry!). It's unfortunate because she is far from my favorite, but if she becomes the candidate, I'm behind her.

Anyway, thanks for all the commentary. I'd have to say that Kuccinich is my favorite but he's not electable...all the same, I'm thrilled he's running yet again as the world needs to hear what he has to say; Biden is my 2nd favorite - his decisive honesty & boldness are SO refreshing - of course, he & K. are like night & day - one's an progressive idealist - the other, a seasoned political realist; Edwards is my 3rd favorite - I like his platform & I feel he is fighting like crazy to define himself and stand out - which is why he may come across as cocky, but there is something about him that bothers me - not sure what. All the same, if he were to be the candidate, he's my man. I don't think Obama is ready. Was Gravel there tonight? No one has mentioned him - he's this year's Al Sharpton & I love him.

Edwards called or commented about Corporate Democrat that could only apply to Clinton or Obama.

My house, ya'll would run screaming. My living room is currently my office, no couch, no coffee table, fish tanks, five dogs, two parrots, a wood stove and my computer in an armoire fake particle wood made to look real.

Look how far the nation has fallen if they dump me in the top 6%! We're hootin' at that one.

Nope no Gravel tonight.

Not so sure about Hillary being the most electable, the Repug's would like us to think that. I think a lot of middle of the road folks might eat up a Biden or Dodd.

Edwards & Obama, both have mutible mars, gemini & virgo, so did Kerry ( sag?) look how that turned out..... (George has that mars in virgo too.look how THAT is turning out!)
The others,Bill, Chris, & Hil. have mars in leo, Joe scorpio, FIXED.
Dennis, cancer cardinal, tenacious!
My choice! My Mother has that.....she's also a libra. She almost alway got her way!
Q

Biden had some good aspects tonight. He stood out.

Well here's KOS poll, theory is the early numbers actually indicate a trend, before it gets freep'd by dedicated fans.

So, who won?
Joe Biden
11% 269 votes
Hillary Clinton
25% 606 votes
Chris Dodd
3% 76 votes
John Edwards
18% 449 votes
Dennis Kucinich
10% 236 votes
Barack Obama
29% 713 votes
Bill Richardson
4% 91 votes

Oh no It sounds like my kind of place!
We used to have a parrot & a 55 gal fish tank in our basement kitchen in Phila.
Currently my dining room is my most used studio.
Move on keeps asking me to have house parties, can't, it would take me a week to pull my art supplies together again!
Bottom line..........the debate didn't change my thinking. I'd be happy with ANY of the 2nd tier candidates. Don't want the top 2, waffling on Edwards.
Q

CNN is replaying the debate in a couple of minutes for those who may have missed it, I suspect you can probably get the replay feed off CNN. It really was entertaining. I'm going to give it a listen and see what I missed.

I'm hoping to see Sally shortly.

My husband is set on Edwards, I'll support whoever we end up with, A Guiliani is scarier then Bush. Me, I agree I'm not thrilled with the top three. So I'm really undecided and I'm still in that spot.

I really wanted Al Gore, but he has other plans, I love his Current.com

Anon, up there at 3:31, does Edwards bother you because: His sun, mars, POF, are in Gemini in the 12th H,moon jupiter gemini 11 H, Thats a lot of lite weight energy, and I ( having a 12th house sun, : like W, find that it messes with your timing.)
Theresa, I think they are going to rerun the entire debate on CNN , turn it on!
Q

Hillary really is ready to step into the White House with feet on the ground. Having Bill could be an asset.

democrats.com

Wolf Blitzer Loses Democratic Debate
Submitted by davidswanson on November 15, 2007 - 10:29pm.
2008 President
By David Swanson
That does it. It's time for the Democratic Party to stage its own debate, ask its own questions, and offer the video to networks as a completed package. Allowing CNN to not just air a debate but to ask the questions proved on Thursday night (even more dramatically than in the past) to be a soul sickening disaster.
A serious debate would begin by asking each candidate (including Mike Gravel, who was locked out of the room) what he or she would do if elected president. Thursday's debate in the opening 30 minutes had me longing for even the level of honesty and substance of the MSNBC debate hosted by Keith Olbermann in Soldier Field some months back, at which Olbermann managed the superhuman feat of asking things like "Would you cancel NAFTA?"

Obama got pretty animated discussing the Healthcare issue between him and Hillary.

Wow missed the Mud throwing comment from Hillary at Edwards and Obama. Wow.

Heya JudiG! What did you think?

I don't have CNN, I only have basic cable, I didn't therefore watch it. Just reading the political sites.

I vote for Clinton....Bill clinton..lol

Living in NZ means can't watch it therefore have to rely on honest reporting.
Huff Post highlights how Ms Clinton decided to come on strong.
And Ob was in a state of shock after being attacked.

Wonder if HC's agressiveness has anything to do with the comment in my post - previous thread - Sid Blumenthal has got on board the HC caravan.

sorry guys just got home from work and didn't see the debate, thank heavens for Morgana. I would think the Scorpio's (except Biden) wouldn't do so well with Mars going retrograde today (the co ruler of Scorp) except Mars went stationary retrograde in a trine to Joe Biden's Mars so I would think he would be pretty quick on his feet. Hillary would be a bit sluggish. Neptune has turned direct and is at 19 degrees Aquarius just a couple of degrees away from a square to her Mercury. Look for more foot in mouth from her in the next couple of months. I know, I had that aspect last year. Talk about mush mouth and confused mumbo jumbo in conversation, that aspect brings it on. I wasn't running for office thank god. By the time Neptune moves on she will be lucky to remember her name. Biden will have the same problem except his Mercury doesn't square Saturn like hers does.

Sally, that is what I thought about Hillary also...Neptune.

some former republican friends just wrote me:

After the Dem. debates, we're for . . . . .SEN. JOE BIDEN!

Yeh, well, I remember watching him at the dem debates in the Iowa caucus run ups last month....and he is for the war to continue in iraq...

Awful lot of Geminis and Scorpios in this. Weird, as I am a gemini with scorpio rising. That Neptune's been on my south node. I've got t. saturn squaring my natal uranus and t. uranus squaring my sun saturn. so that goes for those gemini candidates also ....they are all pretty close to my June 7, although their natal uranus positions would be later.

Saw only part of the debate, the energy was much more open and dynamic all around!
Keep lookin' at Biden, my god I keep thinking of him stroking my hair.. jeez what a sexy man! Smart men do that to me, I'm afraid.

Obama is using the corporate bathroom half the time, and do not, repeat do not like the way he votes. Hillary can still be shot down by Feb.,the thought of her and BC in the WH turn me durn near physically ill. Thoroughly to the bone tired of this incestuous, 3 decade long shellgame of Bushes and Clintons.
have we run out of talent? Like Kucinich, Biden, and all the other REFRESHING people up there.
This whole idea of Clinton on top and Kucinch unelectable are CONCEPTS completely fed to us in the form of this purple odorless gas seeping through every crack. A collective mind***k courtesy of the republican party.

ARGGHHHHH!!!!!!

Here is a cogent complete review from David Swanson http://www.democrats.com/node/14906

That was me back there that called Kuccinich unelectable and Hillary practically inevitable, although I hope you're right patb, as I have liked Biden very much from the getgo. I know it's not necessarily true, but Edwards seems like there is something unauthentic about him because he can be so glib. I know it's the Gemini that comes across that way because they are such good talkers, and I shouldn't judge, because you can't judge a book by its cover. Also, with all the 11th & 12th house placements, it's no small wonder he's a humanitarian and wants to fight for the underdog. (By the way, I have 4 dogs, my entire house is practically an office, and is a work in progress).

And How is Myron doing? Well I hope!
QOP

I think it's interesting that Obama did so poorly because the Moon was conjunct his natal Jupiter and opposed his Mercury and yet the consensus seems to be from this blog that he didn't do so well. Like I said, I didn't see it, but I don't hear any rah rah for Obama.

I like Biden too Judi, always have, he does stick his foot in his mouth however and that's because he has a Scorpio Mercury, he goes through so many convoluted conversations in his mind in order to say something in a politically correct manner that when he does blurt it out the foot is often in the mouth. But he's honest, all that 12th house Scorpio would have taught him in some painful ways the karmic payment for not being honest. I would like to see him as president, but I just don't know how he is going to make that. He has the experience that's for sure.

Sorry way off topic

Sally, since you're a "well-heeled" astrologer fond of and familiar with both modern and traditional
I've sent you this link to a recent Deborah Houlding article at Skyscript which just tonight I discovered

I found it fascinating and thought you may like to read it ( if you haven't already) one day you're not quite so busy.
"Charts and Symbols in early astrology"
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/greek_horoscope.html

Has anyone noticed how Edwards seems to always smile at Dennis. I am beginning to think that an Edwards/Kucinich ticket could do it for the Dems. Edwards, especially if Rudy is Repug candidate, could carry the South with Dennis mobilising the Dem base.

I can't see Rovian tactics working this time, much like John Howard's old tricks are no longer working in Oz.

Agreed JAse!
QOP

From Op-Ed News

Thoughts on the Las Vegas Dem Debate.
The beginning walk to positions? What is t his, a fashion show? What a stupid, stupid idea-- an insult that demeaned the candidates. Oh. Wait, There's one candidate who might fit on a fashion show runway... but she was wearing asbestos.

Hillary got off easy, from Blitzer. But Edwards and Obama went after her.It was interesting that Edwards caught the flak, getting hit pretty hard by Blitzer and company. They're afraid of him.

Blitzer asked some questions that surely, Republicans would find the answers useful.

Obama did not come across as dynamic, special or a leader, just another candidate. I think he lost the most this time.

Edwards, Richardson and Biden came off very solid, with strong ideas. I think the three of them did best in this debate.

I like what Edwards says about taking care of the people, of workers, rather than big business. That resonates with me. But I'm not your average listener. Does his message get through to the tiny fraction of v iewers who watch debates? That's his challenge.

Biden was engaging, funny and showed his diplomatic expertise, and Richardson came back showing it too. Edwards chimed in, also showing more than expected in that area.

Kucinich had some good lines, but, on at least two ocassions, seemed grouchy and angry. His reply on whether he would support democrats was probably not clear to most Americans. I'm not sure I understood it. I did like his line, "Just imagine what it would be like to have a president who's right the first time."

Dodd keeps coming across as a wonk. He has experience, has done the right thing in recent senate votes where Hillary and Obama have refused to take a stand, but that's not enough.
He needs to break out with some stories that change him from reporting information to tying in with something that produces an emotional response.
There was a strong debate over healthcare. That's a good thing, but it only lasted a few minutes. I'd love to see a whole debate devoted to just that issue.

Richardson is looking more presidential. Being a governor really IS a lot different than being a member of congress. His answers were smart, principled and decidedly different than the Republicans. That shows guts and character.

I don't watch the debates...what with the recent
hosts Wolf Blitzer and Tim Russert, neither of whom I can stomach. They show how low the media
have fallen.

I am for Kucinich, first, last and always!

The voters got themselves into this mess, and
it seems to me that it will several elections down
the line before they get themselves out. We get
what we deserve. Rudy, Jeb, Jeb P...why would any
thinking person want that job?
In '72 U I got a call from the White House asking me "Can the President (Nixon) count on your
support?"

I replied that I would vote for Hitler before I
would vote for that SOB.

Same holds true for today. Other than Dennis there is really NO ONE for whom I could vote. The
last time I had any enthusiasm for a candidate was in 1960.

The Clintons are Republican Lite, I don't like
either one of them.

wv, Too bad, your pithy comments were missed last night!
QOP

Not sure if it's up on CNN, but CSPANjunkie posted the entire debate up on youtube for those of us who don't normally watch or pay for the MSM:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqnof0hGAcc

This country needs a candidate who isn't bought and paid for already by the ultra-rich elite:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.asp?id=N00003572&cycle=2008

Compare the above with pretty much every other candidate.

Also, remember that you're not actually voting for the President, you're just expressing a political opinion. Some people started to realize that back in 2000, but it's about your electors and your political party. If you really want to make a difference, become involved in local politics and your local political party. Find out who your delegates to your party's convention are and/or try to become one. You do vote directly for your local and state representatives, and the latter are what provide the check and balance to the indirectly elected executive and judicial branches, which, don't kid yourself, you really don't have any say over. It's designed that way for a purpose so we don't have mob rule (pure democracy) and the rights of the minority are protected. Not saying that any of you don't realize this, but I've run across so many people lately that just don't understand our country's political process. The president is not king and he or she is just a leg in our great government. Now, Cheney and his crew have been fighting for literally decades to get you to think that the executive branch should have more power - don't let them fool you into that!

Go Dennis!

QOP I had a great time last night. Sally and I will try to get more lead time next time to let folks know when there will be live blogging. Folks don't have to actually watch the debate but can participate with comments or like WV and JudiG posting info from other sites regarding the debate in progress or otherwise. Folks on AW have a lot of information from numerous sources.

Really you guys are the best!

hello Morgana, Sally and everyone, so sorry to post so little, but I am a busy bee... I still read at least once a week articles and comments and love it all.

I am posting today because I received this, this morning, and thought some of you might be interested t join in signing....

so here it is below, blessings to all !!

"Hi,

I just joined several Democratic Organisations in calling for the California Democratic Party (CDP) to censure Senator Dianne Feinstein. They are working with Democratic Party activists to advance a censure resolution at the CDP's Executive Board meeting this weekend. Will you join us in building a wave of grassroots support? Click here to "Censure the Senator". "

http://www.couragecampaign.org/censurethesenator

WV...you wrote (or quoted):
Kucinich had some good lines, but, on at least two ocassions, seemed grouchy and angry. His reply on whether he would support democrats was probably not clear to most Americans. I'm not sure I understood it. I did like his line, "Just imagine what it would be like to have a president who's right the first time."

I think the reason is that Wolfie didn't ask him a question for the first 26 minutes, and cut him out of much of the debate....everyone should read the David Swanson link I posted to see how it fell out in terms of 'time' line....
http://www.democrats.com/node/14906

I think the way the media controls the debate is far more important than how the candidates 'came off''.

Sally, I liked Biden in the Iowa caucus debates, too, until he went into his 'supporting' the war stance. He does have the experience.

I think the dems (in the top planning of the elections) are thinking Rude-y will be the repub, and that Hillary is the one to beat him.

Blumenthal joining Hillary's campaign may bring much needed energy to her campaign. I was glad to see it.

Did anyone see/hear Democracy Now today? Amy interviews Craig Unger on his new book, Fall of the House of Bush.
It touches down AGAIN on points touched in The House of Bush, The Christian Mafia, and The Unauthorized Biography of GHW Bush. As well, he tells of many more new things, I wasn't familiar with. These are known knowns, and known well, but by too few people, it's as if these facts spin in a self contained circle, rather than being in a spiral,which would reach out to educate more......
I look forward to more live blogging as we did last night, that was fun, especially since I've been in a self imposed long work stint here.
QOP

This could be interesting:

This Saturday, November 17, presidential candidates will gather in Los Angeles for the first ever Presidential Forum on Global Warming and America's Energy Future. The event will be a critical opportunity to hear from the candidates on their positions and to spotlight the climate crisis as one of the most important leadership challenges facing the next president.

Thanks to you and thousands of other activists, energy and global warming are taking center stage in the 2008 campaign. This forum is an opportunity for you to hear from the candidates directly about where they stand on these issues you care so much about.

More than a thousand people will fill the theater to watch the event, and due to overwhelming interest, we are giving everyone the chance to tune in!

You can watch the live webcast at www.grist.org/webcast.

The event, which is sponsored by Grist and Living on Earth, will start this Saturday at 5:10 EST (2:10 PST) with remarks from Laurie David and a welcome address from Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa. Each of the candidates will then get 30 minutes on stage to talk about their vision for solving our energy problems and answer questions on their policies.

Here's the schedule on Saturday, November 17:

5:30 EST-Congressman Dennis Kucinich
6:00 EST-Senator Hillary Clinton
6:30 EST-Senator John Edwards

LCV Education Fund has been a key partner in helping pull this important event together and we wanted to make sure that all of you had the opportunity to tune in!

Be sure to visit www.grist.org/webcast this Saturday to watch the presidential forum on energy and global warming, and please forward this to your friends and family so they can see where the candidates stand on the most critical challenges facing our nation and the world today.

I wasn't able to do any internet last night Morgana. Sorry to have missed this one.

I was just reading the Constitution. Article 2, Section 2 of the Constitution states that recess appointments are to be made only when openings occur during a recess. Now Bush waits till there is a recess to appoint the person of his choice even though the opening became available prior to the recess. Why has this been allowed to go on and continue?

Was all set to watch debate last night and maybe make a (hopefully cogent) comment, but something came up. So enjoyed reading this thread today! Hope you will do this again.

Pat C, what a good point! I haven't heard anyone bring that up. I think that the writers of the Constitution assumed that taking the oath to "protect and defend the Constitution" would preclude any "gentleman" violating it. In their day they believed that only men of a certain caste would be president and that these men would take their oath of office seriously.

Morgana, don't jump on me--(and thanks for your great commentary on the debate)--I know these guys were flawed and ethnocentric--but they did have some standards among themselves. It's hard to believe that Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Paine--any of them--could possibly have imagined a George W. Bush.

PS--For some time now I've been carrying a copy of the Constitution in my purse. (So in case I get arrested at a protest, I can quote my rights.)

One additional thought--those founding fathers were realists enough to lay out a procedure for ridding ourselves of a president who violates his oath of office.

I'm now wearing my "Impeach Bush & Cheney" tee-shirt everywhere.

Good Tshirt, I should get one!

Why would I jump on you ? Nope. I keep hoping our Founding Father's have reincarnated here and will kick some butt again soon.

Now for a total non-sequiter here's a link to go see some fractal art!

http://fractalarts.com/SFDA/fractal_art2.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=228x35936

Go be amazed.

Go be amazed:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=228x35936

Shylurker, I'm at a loss for words!

lunaoscura, that poster comes through with amazing photos every Friday over at DU. Kinda puts the candidates' debate in perspective, huh?

All that awesome beauty in the universe, and the forces that create and destroy which we are lucky enough to just be learning to understand yet we are in real trouble here. I truly hope it isn't too late to take a step into the reality of the universe. How sad it would be to be prepared to venture into the cosmos only to destroy our planet instead.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174863

Tomgram: As the World Burns

Resource Wars in the Homeland

"Resource wars" are things that happen elsewhere. We don't usually think of our country as water poor or imagine that "resource wars" might be applied as a description to various state and local governments in the southwest, southeast, or upper Midwest now fighting tooth and nail for previously shared water. And yet, "war" may not be a bad metaphor for what's on the horizon. According to the National Climate Data Center, federal officials have declared 43% of the contiguous U.S. to be in "moderate to extreme drought." Already, Sonny Perdue of Georgia is embroiled in an ever more bitter conflict -- a "water war," as the headlines say -- with the governors of Florida and Alabama, as well as the Army Corps of Engineers, over the flow of water into and out of the Atlanta area.

He's hardly alone. After all, the Southwest is in the grips of what, according to Davis, some climatologists are terming a "'mega-drought,' even the 'worst in 500 years.'" More shockingly, he writes, such conditions may actually represent the region's new "normal weather." The upper Midwest is also in rainfall-shortage mode, with water levels at all the Great Lakes dropping unnervingly. The water level of Lake Superior, for instance, has fallen to the "lowest point on record for this time of year." (Notice, by the way, how many "records" are being set nationally and globally in these drought years; how many places are already beginning to push beyond history, which means beyond any reference point we have.)

And then there's the southeast, 26% of which, according to the National Weather Service, is in a state of "exceptional" drought, its most extreme category, and 78% of which is "drought-affected." We're talking here about a region normally considered rich in water resources setting a bevy of records for dryness. It has been the driest year on record for North Carolina and Tennessee, for instance, while 18 months of blue skies have led Georgia to break every historical record, whether measured by "the percentage of moisture in the soil, the flow rate of rivers, [or] inches of rain."

Atlanta is hardly the only city or town in the region with a dwindling water supply. According to David Bracken of Raleigh's News & Observer, "17 North Carolina water systems, including Raleigh and Durham, have 100 or fewer days of water supply remaining before they reach the dregs." Rock Spring, South Carolina, "has been without water for a month. Farmers are hauling water by pickup truck to keep their cattle alive." The same is true for the tiny town of Orme, Tennessee, where the mayor turns on the water for only three hours a day.

And then, there's Atlanta, its metropolitan area "watered" mainly by a 1950s man-made reservoir, Lake Lanier, which, in dramatic photos, is turning into baked mud. Already with a population of five million and known for its uncontrolled growth (as well as lack of water planning), the city is expected to house another two million inhabitants by 2030. And yet, depending on which article you read, Atlanta will essentially run out of water by New Year's eve, in 80 days, in 120 days, or, according to the Army Corps of Engineers -- which seems to find this reassuring -- in 375 days, if the drought continues (as it may well do).

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Guess I'm late to the party. Morgana, you're a regular riot! Great reporting on the debate, but I like the description on your house better. Hahahahaha! And QOP's not far behind. QOP, I also like listening to Democracy Now. I usually listen on my car radio. There are so many interesting guests on that program, and when you listen to what they have to say, there are so many people(myself included)who are in the dark about all that's really going on in the world. Very enlightening.
Haven't listened to it lately, as life is getting in the way these days.

Luna....watched PBS show on the problems in Nevada with water....same thing. This is why the big plaers want to privatize everything...anything in short supply is valuable.

Morgana was in rare form on debate night with her blow by blow account. They were just discussing the debate on the Mc Laughlin show tonight. I don't know how many more debates I can stand. I'm already tired of all the shenanigans.

Creepo! Germans pay 1 euro 40c for a litre of petrol That's about 6- 7. per gallon. NOT going there!
Iguess it's about the same in Canada! Are we spoiled?
QOP

One of the fun things about last night was the candidates didn't stay on script. You could see real emotion. Watching their body language the second time through made it even more interesting.

" "Maria Luisa, the UNLV student who asked Hillary Clinton whether she preferred "diamonds or pearls" at last night's debate wrote on her MySpace page this morning that CNN forced her to ask the frilly question instead of a pre-approved query about the Yucca Mountain nuclear waste repository.

"Every single question asked during the debate by the audience had to be approved by CNN," Luisa writes. "I was asked to submit questions including "lighthearted/fun" questions. I submitted more than five questions on issues important to me. I did a policy memo on Yucca Mountain a year ago and was the finalist for the Truman Scholarship. For sure, I thought I would get to ask the Yucca question that was APPROVED by CNN days in advance." "

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/11/diamond_v_pearl_student_blasts_1.php

Yes QOP, you are spoiled! Fuel costs @£1/litre here in the UK - $2 US/litre. Around 80/90% of the cost is tax. That's partly what this war is all about = pushing the price up for the oil barons, as is the global warming scam of 'the carbon footprint'. It's another opportunity for yet another stealth tax.

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Given the choice between a black corporatist democrat, female corporatist democrat and a white male workers/union democrat, I know who would get my vote. It's Dennis all the way!

Hillary is the candidate who would give Rudy a genuine shot at the presidency - they're both polarizing candidates but Hillary would be able to motivate a lot of Republicans to vote who would otherwise stay at home if Edwards or Dennis was the Dem candidate.

No to HRC or BO - they offer the same kind of leadership Pelosi et al offer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBypp2hqxaQ

Hillary Cllinton would expand NAFTA

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jay-mandle/what-is-wrong-with-presid_b_72872.html

Privatized candidates

Wikileaks

a place for journalists, truth tellers and everybody else; global defense of sources and press freedoms, circa now.

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Wikileaks

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20071117/climate-change-conference/

UN Panel: Climate Change Accelerating

[snip]
The U.N. says a new global plan must be in place by 2009 to ensure a smooth transition after the expiration of the Kyoto terms, which require 36 industrial countries to radically reduce their carbon emissions by 2012.

"There are real and affordable ways to deal with climate change," Ban said. He said a new agreement should provide funding to help poor countries adopt clean energy and to adapt to changing climates.

The report says emissions of carbon, which comes primarily from fossil fuels, must stabilize by 2015 and go down after that. Otherwise the consequences could be "disastrous," said IPCC chairman Rajendra Pachauri.

In the best-case scenario, temperatures will continue to rise from carbon already in the atmosphere, the report said. Even if factories were shut down today and cars taken off the roads, the average sea level will reach as high as 4 1/2 feet higher than the preindustrial period, or about 1850.

"We have already committed the world to sea level rise," said Pachauri. If the Greenland ice sheet melts, the scientists couldn't even predict by how many meters the seas will rise, drowning coastal cities.

more...

While the UN says global warming is the defining challenge of our Age, Bush's government refuses to acknowledge the IPCC findings.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071117/sc_afp/unclimatewarmingipccban

UN chief demands climate 'breakthrough' after key report

by Marlowe Hood Sat Nov 17, 8:18 AM ET

VALENCIA, Spain (AFP) - UN chief Ban Ki-moon demanded that politicians next month smash the deadlock on tackling global warming, saying a report issued on Saturday by a Nobel-winning climate panel "has set the stage for a real breakthrough."

[snip]
During five days of negotiations, the United States repeatedly challenged passages emphasizing the level of threat posed by climate change, objecting that the wording was imprecise.

The "scientific definition" of the dangers of climate change "is lacking, and so we are operating within the construct of, again, strong agreement among world leaders that urgent action is warranted," said Jim Connaughton, chairman of White House's Council on Environmental Quality.

The United States is the only major developed economy that has refused to ratify the Kyoto Protocol, which requires industrialised countries to make targeted commitments on curbing their greenhouse gases.

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I wish I would have known AW was live blogging the best debate we've had yet, (pathetic TV moderators aside) I would have loved to be here to offer some balance and fact checking. I have files full of it because I do my homework, not to mention being retired I have all the time in the world to be all over the blogosphere to my heart's content.

Reading the comments all I can say is "Wow". Make no mistake it's not a good Wow. I'm really disappointed at the level of IOKIYBH (It's OK If You're Bashing Hillary) level of discourse that seems to have crept into my fave blog. Let me guess, most but not all are men. I don't need to name names of who are the worst offenders. It's extremely insulting to her supporters which I'm a strong one and I'm certainly voting for her.

I wrote out a long thoughtful response/rebuttal last night but then erased it, why waste my typing breath. I have a feeling you wouldn't believe the true facts of her 90-100% progressive Liberal voting record even if Progressive Punch and Vote Smart stared you in the face.

lunaoscura, your deep love for this natural world shines through everything you research and post, and I know I speak for everyone in thanking you for imposing your love on us.

When it comes to the inevitable destruction of the bush cabal and the plans of those like him,
nature has the final authority to interrupt them.
Destruction is the name of the game and it is necessary. Like you, my heart is gripped with sadness and cry with every creature that suffers such misery because of us. The destruction of the modern world is the best news yet for the recovery of everything that lives on this beautiful intelligent world of ours.

If we look ahead we have to realize getting the monstrous bad guys out of the WH 'for now' isn't good enough. They may go temporarily underground and make a comeback in the not-too-distant future that can finish off our society, the global economy (thank god) and ecosystems to crashing worldwide. I take a perverse delight when the market falls, hoping it will crash so we can finally get real. I have no illusions for my safety or security. Sure, I will fight the good fight for all things decent and kind, but I will not in my heart support a system that MUST DIE.
Why have tension over the good news of a failing system that is suffocating the world.

Shez,
We'll try to get the word out sooner. I would love to have had your input!
I don't have a favorite, I don't trust any of them.
DKOS has gotten pretty divisive as well between the various camps.
The main thing is we do not elect a Giuliani, who would be worse then Bush.

I expect if it gets down to Hillary vs GOP'er we'll all be on Hillary's band wagon, for the end goal is too important for all of us. Any Democrat is better then what the GOP'ers have to offer.

Morgana, we'll vote for Hillary alright. We'll also keep losing our jobs and a lot more. Either way, do we have Habeaus returned, or the constitution restored? We haven't paid any attention to what Hillary DOESN'T say. She hasn't said a word about restoring our constitutional rights and doubt she has it in her to RETURN power to where it belongs. Ha! That really rouses cynical laughter in me. I will vote for the shrew if it comes to it.

What HAS caught my attention is that marvelous upcoming aquarius conjunction on the u.s. moon in '09, and also a rather mild one-pass saturn return for the u.s. which quickly INCONJUNCTS that u.s. moon for 3 passes. That is both pleasurable and hopeful but at a high price. What is that price, we wonder.
The swearing-in of '09 is a decidedly fragile chart that smacks of a "temporariness" of the structure of the next president.
That is one embattled individual who may make it through by luck and spit the lst term by my assessment.
2012's election will be wrested away from the incumbent by legal lies and gymnastics and will be a sobering call to revolution by states and the citizenry as the final straw..I don't think there is a way out of this other than through. By 2016 I think our hands will find our butts as citizens and will the be 'birthpoint' of this revolution taking us into the '20s.

Hi everyone. Sorry to have missed the big event but the comments are probably just as good!Ha!
I would hate it if Hillary wound up being the candidate as I too think of it as the Bush/Clinton Shell Game. Having such a prominate female candidate has been such an opportunity for this country but I have always felt that she has been the wrong person in the right place at the right time. I still say she might wear blue suits but she's got red underwear. And not all people who dislike Hillary are men.

Raven, consider this: we 'hear' that she is disliked by the repugs first last and always.
They figure if they keep repeating her name as substantial she is the candidate won by unconscious suggestion. They figure they can beat her with any old slob in a suit.
Well, they appear to have succeeded with Part One.

T. Boone Pickens is b-u-y-i-n-g up water rights on land that rests on part of the 174,000-square-mile Ogallala Aquifer, North America’s biggest underground water reservoir and among the most pure.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aUMHM8z9IMd4&refer=home#

There must be some common law brought in through the Constitution from Roman law that protects the people and their rights to water. Water is elemental to all of life.

We will all have the candidates we like and dislike, no matter the party affliation. I don't know if we are being too hard on Hillary with her Mercury/Saturn (stubborn) square, would that be something honored in a man? Probably, either honored or overlooked as "well that's just a man."
I'm not a fan of any of the candidates and don't know what I'm looking for except honesty, fair play, commitment to the Constitution and Bill of Rights and a whole lot less big business in politics. I am for getting the Lobby's out of there (government)

Something John Edwards said at the 2nd debate, and Hillary did not refute or even try to and no one I've heard has brought it up in the media; it relates to her health care plan. Edwards said "HIllary how can you say for the people on this health care plan, you didn't even meet or talk to the people, you talked to insurance companies, big pharma, businesses,lobbyists no one representing the people were even present, so how can this be a plan for the people?" That one has always bothered me, it also bothers me that the front runner (Hillary) cannot be questioned without someone whinning that it's unfair. I don't understand that or why she doesn't answer questions with a straight answer, but then again few do that.

The only candidates I feel we know, whether we like them or not is Kucinich and Biden and perhaps Dodd. I don't think we have a government, honest election credibility or a candidate on either side who can be or is trustworthy and it's a huge concern.

The Boone Pickens thing, we can be certain is being watched closely by the likes of Halliburton, the guys who brought many of our troops hideously contaminated water and lifelong internal timebombs.
The race to the bottom which guys like Pickens will cause a possible trend creating further suffering of the worst kind: Thirst.

In the Hands of the Military

By Chris Hedges

The last, best hope for averting a war with Iran lies with the United States military. The Democratic Congress, cowed by the Israel lobby and terrified of appearing weak on defense before the presidential elections, will do nothing to halt an attack.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18722.htm

I see by the time and date on the last post that
it is now time to say

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, SALLY!

May your new year bring you health, wealth and
another set of twins. You are a mensch (?) and
we all LOVE YOU....

Well I watched the debates and I once again came away ill at ease with the leading candidates. Obama was elected to the Senate when I was still in Chicago. The Illinois Democratic machine picked him to run against Allan Keyes I believe, solely because he is a handsome African American with impeccable academic credentials. For those of you who don’t know Allan Keyes is an African American from Maryland, (where I live now ironically), who is rabidly conservative and homophobic, (his daughter came out of the closet when he was on the campaign trail or just after he lost I believe, we are still LOAO on that one). He won of course in that very democratic state, but I just don’t get his appeal. He says nothing very prettily, and it’s clear he is mouthing advisor’s positions w/o any sense of the awesome responsibilities of the presidency. I thin he would be easily manipulated by the wrong people if he was in office. To me he’s all book smarts and charm and no street smarts, at least not yet. There is no earthly reason why he should even be a contender much less a strong contender.

Hillary make me equally nervous. I feel like she is so intent on winning that she is deliberatly more hawkish to down play any accusations of a women not being able to be strong on national security bslh blah blah.

Biden and Dodd makes good sense as does Richardson, (who I think is running for VEEP). But I think Hillary will be nominated. I will vote for her, but with reservations. Someone mentioned NAFTA, under the previous Clinton watch this horrible program was put in place and has further impoverished Mexican workers and Americans alike. I too wonder what Hillary is really all about underneath it all.

And by the way Shez, I am not Hillary bashing, I just think we all need to take a long hard look at anyone we vote for and not be lulled by the media and the BS and hype. Oh, and I am a gay woman, not a straight male as you suggested any blogger here must be to be against Hillary. I am however an American, and I still believe that open, honest political discourse and not knee-jerk acceptance of any candidate is the soul of democracy.

Swamp

By the way folks re water- you may want to check into the fairly reasonably priced solar stills for collecting water from evaporation of less potable sources. Here’s one source: http://www.solaqua.com/index.html. You can also do some Google searching and find plans for making one from scratch. We can collect water in rain barrels, storm run off etc and use this free energy way of turning it into to safe drinking water. I am looking into building or buying one a I don’t like what I see coming down the road. There is also ways to make still to collect water from atmospheric condensation w/o a water source, check into various camping/ survival info sources

Well I just came from a conference on elevating the creative people in the state ( Maine/Pisces) titled Juice! Not groups, non-profits; but INDIVIDUAL artists, of all descriptions! The Gov. & state legislators consider it to be one of our most important natural resources, as much as our scenery! Hallelooya! We are to get a boost up to the same level as the kyackers & hikers, working to attract art buyers and participants as well.
We just voted in a referendum to improve the infrastructure of the colleges, and they included money to pump the creative venues as well.
They also have some wonderful visionary ideas about how to alter the structure of education in the state, making it more holistic, and to stimulate critical thinking!
It's as if NCLB, and the military/ industrial complex, belong to some other place!
When Baldacci was a COngressman he stayed at that boarding house in DC run by the Arlington Christian Fellowship. So he's got the inside dope with out having been sucked into it! then he came home and got elected Governor. If he can keep it...........the conservatives aren't crazy about his forward thinking ideas.
I'm juiced!
QOP

Wow Sally! Cheerful wonderful year to you with your new beautiful babies and toddler warming the glow of your home and life from inside. Who could ask for more, I ask you.
May this birthday year be tender with you, and the world just Let Be, unhurried, to let in your feel for the magic of fireflies in summery fields and freshly bathed little ones sleeping and snug
beneath the moon.

Swamp, knowing how to build one of those things is demandatory...how fantastic an item it is if you're living in a vulnerable place on the map.
I live in Boulder, Co and even though the NCDC says we're well hydrated here, we have been embraced by the moveable drought system and had to conserve water by not washing dishes daily and taking Navy showers just 5 years ago.

As for Hillary, no. I don't think we're too hard on her because she just will not come clean with what concerns us, I don't trust anyone who is not straightforward and in a politician it means they know we won't like their answer.
Her womanhood is utterly, completely irrelevant and I'd feel the same were she a man, a black woman, or a roach.

Happy Birthday Sally!!!!!!!!!

I'm a little late getting around to seeing new movies since we wait for them ot come out in DVD. So just a few nights ago I rented "Sicko" by Michael Moore. Even if you've already seen it the special features are worth the rental fee. There is an interview with one of the most influential women around (per MM and Time). Her comments about Hillary's Health Care campaign are a must see. And in the movie Hillary's Health Care program was discussed as well as the male suits' reaction to her. Michael Moore goes on to say that after the Big Stink she accepted big campaign contribution from "Health Insurance" Companies! Plus she's for going to war with Iran!
Sorry...a big snotty NO to any politician who is for war. Period. if thats not caving to Bushcomania I don't know what is.
I agree with Sally....I don't really know who I want as Pres.....but someone with vision, committment,action, and impeccable standards.
OK, I'm done.
Blessings to you Sally and all.

Is it Sally's birthday? If so, happy birthday Sally! Seems like we have a lot of Scorpios on this site(your humble servant included).

I am one of those people who would have difficulty voting for Hillary,if she were to win the nomination. I used to like her, mostly because I think she's gutsy, and I believe she would make a very capable president, and yes, the fact that she will be the first female American president if elected, but I saw her ruthless side when she ran for her Senate seat in NYC, so I am not sure that she is capable of serving anyone but Hillary. You can see it when she campaigns - she is all about power and winning at any cost. I think she would sell her soul to the devil if she could be guaranteed the presidency. Anyway, this is what turned me off about her. I guess everyone knows that you can't win any election in NYC without carrying the Jewish vote. Well, earlier on, she had made a fact-finding trip to Israel and Palestine. On her visit to Palestine, she had embraced Arafat's wife, and kissed her on both cheeks, as is the Palestinian custom. Apparently this did not sit well with the Jewish populace in NY, so they launched a demonstration during her Senate campaign to protest this event, and demanded that she apologize for her actions, as it was perceived to be insulting to the Jews. I was watching to see what her reaction would be, and to my consternation, she did apologize, and said that she regretted her actions. I have always referred to this development in the campaign as the "unkissing" of Arafat's wife. Prior to this happening, I had always thought of Hillary as a person who had the courage of her convictions, but that day my faith in her was shattered; but hey, she was doing what she had to do to win her Senate seat. So, I thought, well, there goes American foreign policy in the Middle East. Of paramount importance to me in a Presidential candidate, is the ability to execute on a good domestic policy (healthcare to be available and affordable to all, good educational programs that benefit all children,regardless of whether the school is located in a poor, or wealthy neighborhood,a decent living wage for the working poor and middle class so that they can enjoy a higher standard of living. Reinstatement of our democratic rights, of which we have been so deprived by this current administration). In other words, something like what Bobby Kennedy had in mind before he was assassinated.

But following right behind in importance, is a fair and just foreign policy plan, carried out towards the peoples of the Middle East; and the only President I have seen deliver on this was Carter. I don't know if Hillary is capable of executing in the foreign policy dept. And I think this will be necessary for the safety and welfare of all present, and future American citizens. So now, I don't know if she is sincere about anything she says, or whether she's saying it, just to be elected. But this may be the name of the game, and perhaps all the candidates are playing it, amd that is why we are allowed to vote them out of office every four years if they don't live up to our expectations. So, I haven't quite made up my mind yet. I am still sitting on the fence.

All I know is that having Giuliani (sp?) as president would be a fate worse than death, because if I think foreign policy is lacking now in the ME, it would cease to exist under him, and we can look forward to more belligerence, and more wars.

Oh, by the way. Sorry, but I don't like Biden. Too slick for me - every move calculated. He could also use some warmth. He's kind of like cold potatoes.

Happy Birthday Sally!!!
May all your days be little gifts, As you have given us all so much here on this site!
QOP

Sally, May G-d Bless you & your family on your birthday & all the year through. Thank you for creating this cyberhome for us - you are much appreciated and loved by all of us, and I venture to say, many more people on this planet & in the other dimensions, too (((((Yay Sally!))))

Reminds me of the time I was in Wales, UK, telling a Brit about my best friend. I said to him "everyone should meet her," and his dry response was "I should think it would be very tiring for Bonnie to line up and shake hands with everyone in Red China." Well, Sally, everyone should meet you.

patb, what a beautiful bit of poetry you just came up with in your BD wishes to Sally, and, wv, I've been here a few years now & you always remember Sally on her birthday - kudos to you - (and I think "mensch" can be spelled a few different ways but the way you spelled it might be the most common way - I use that version).

It's funny, Crytal, but I find Biden spontaneous & warm (however, I haven't seen too many of the debates).

Happy birthday, Cap'n Sally! Thank you so much for keeping us together through all these choppy waters. You're the best.

3:06 was Sharon -

Happy Birthday Sally!

Happy Birthday!!

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/us/politics/17web-redburn.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1195394885-24BnV+sq+Q0EBlms+7EbCg

Trying to Fix What's Not Broken

Social Security isn’t broke. So why are Democrats fighting so hard right now over how to fix it?

The program has enough in projected revenues and guaranteed Treasury i.o.u.’s, according to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, to pay its promised benefits fully through 2046.

.............

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chase-martyn/new-report-edwards-on-to_b_73119.html

New Report: Edwards On Top In Iowa?

Happy birthday to you! Happy birthday to you! Happy birthday dear Sally! Happy birthday to you!

......and many more!

http://www.gaiafield.net/

patb, the reason I post so much about global warming has changed over time. I used to do it as a warning call about what might happen, but now I do it to inform of the changes already happening. A lot of people have accepted the truth that the changes are already happening and that in that sense it's too late. But as to how drastic the changes will be may be dependent on our actions globally. Yet each of us will be affected, and it's possible that we might be able to make some personal decisions on how we will deal with what's coming. We can only do that if we are informed, thus the main reason for my posts. And it works. For example, Swamp told us about the water stills in a post on this thread. She gave us incredibly practical help since the water situation seems to be headed towards massive global death. Perhaps the new normal will become to function as self contained communities again. Water stills will be part of that new normal. Thanks Swamp!

http://www.solaqua.com/index.html

Thank you one and all for your beautiful birthday greetings. I have officially reached the age where I shall now begin to lie about my age. No one on this site must tell.

To one and all Scorpio's in the waning days of our birthday month Happy Birthday and will Jupiter moving into Capricorn, followed by Pluto and Saturn in Virgo we should all be looking for opportunities over the next couple of years. Even retrograde Mars is cooperating with us by going retro in Cancer. So Happy Birthday's one and all and let's plan on "rocking" this year. Saturn has finally moved out of a square to our Scorpio, we can breath again.

Sally, happy solar return and may you have many more!

Found another "find your candidate match" quiz while browsing through voting records and statements on issues of the 2008 presidential candidates on ontheissues.org :

http://www.speakout.com/VoteMatch/Senate2006.asp#sec0

I got the usual suspects Kucinich, Gravel and Paul again, in that order and close.

I don't recall seeing a question about "Is the gender of a President relevant?" or similar. If there was, I would have selected strongly Oppose and I'd probably still get the same 3 candidates. 'Nuff said.

Re: Presidential Sun Sign distribution, I found this:

http://www.neptunecafe.com/USPresidents.html

I think just considering the Sun Sign is oversimplified, as many of you would agree. I like one of the conclusions about planets contacting the US Moon in Aquarius (I think Stan referred to this recently with Ron Paul's Pallas). I don't agree that the US Ascendant is Scorpio, though.

November 18, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist

Shake, Rattle and Roll
By MAUREEN DOWD
WASHINGTON

The debate dominatrix knows how to rattle Obambi.

Mistress Hillary started disciplining her fellow senator last winter, after he began exploring a presidential bid. When he winked at her, took her elbow and tried to say hello on the Senate floor, she did not melt, as many women do. She brushed him off, a move meant to remind him that he was an upstart who should not get in the way of her turn in the Oval Office.

He was so shook up, he called a friend to say: You would not believe what just happened with Hillary.

She has continued to flick the whip in debates. She usually ignores Obama and John Edwards backstage, preferring to chat with the so-called second-tier candidates. And she often looks so unapproachable while they’re setting up on stage that Obama seems hesitant to be the first to say hi.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/opinion/18dowd.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

Gilgamesh, same here: Kucinich, Gravel then Paul (although many important points with him 5 are off). What would be somewhat interesting is a composite of all the presidents, but that would be somewhat obsessive wouldn't it..he he he.
More to the point would be how many of those fixed square people changed u.s. society and how.
bush has so many cardinal and mutables, and what is rarely mentioned is his saturn in cancer conjuncts u.s. jupiter in 8th house and his drain on our resources both financial and psychological.
Have we EVER seen a president take up this much of our energy so obsessively and be so maddeningly tough to get rid of while having such a wildly obvious need to be yanked from office since day one? I know so many people who cried and were deeply depressed for many weeks (6 here)
the day he so improbably stole his first election and the spectacle of everything that didn't make sense (bullies banging on the ballot counter's door, then no recount). Then he did it AGAIN 4 years later. Saturn in the 8th (death death death, the death president) deeply discouraging our mind and emotions and creating such a split there (cancerjup/aquarius moon).
Guess there's a time for everyone and every country to face their shadow and integrate it, else deepening of that country's being doesn't happen. Let's face it, the u.s. is one childish country.

Sally, on a different note, I have jupiter on your sun and chiron in scorpio too, and merc mars. ceres spread across pisces, and a catholic servile sun in the 6th in aries (lame lamb, huh). Did a lot of travel by water on my father's boat sailing for weeks on end every summer. Jung's genius/buddhism hold the route to world peace, religiousness is out, reverence is in. Every blessing followed by a kick in the pants and a popped illusion.

I got Kucinich, Dodd, Gravel, followed by Hillary, Obama, Edwards.

Every one of these quiz's have had Kucinich at the top for me.

Thanks Gilgamesh for reposting the Neptune Cafe, we put it up from time to time but not too many download it and it's always good to repost, and will be through the elections.

I used the Scorpio Ascendant for a few years and it did work for some things, but after 9/11 the Pluto Saturn opposition across the Sag. ascendant was just too accurate to be discounted. I will say that Adams thought July 3rd would be the date we celebrated, the day the Declaration was passed by the Continental Congress, but it turned out to be the 4th, the day it was read. The Declaration of Independence was actually a declaration of war, a declaration of intent. It wasn't until March 4, 1789 and the Inauguration of George Washington that we were fully a country (even though there were "presidents" before Washington, the Constitution became law on that date.

Well Sally with another Happy Birthday for all my beloved Scorpios i can't help pointing out that naggy saturn in Virgo is now square all my Gemini!! One woman's support is another woman's nag,nag.nag. I will clean up all my broad stroke actions regards resources says saturn in Virgo.he he he the trick here is to be grateful. Ehhh?!
PatB I loved that entry of 5:13. Never thought of the importance of fixed/crdinal/mutable in how a President would effect the country.

Hi Sally, I stunned a couple of Gen-Xr's last night with that piece of Presidential trivia. Always enjoy pointing that out since it is such a graphic reminder of how distorted the history we learned as children was.

Again Happy Birthday to all my lovely Scorpio's! My husband is a Scorpio.

Lots of astrologers in 2000 said if Bush gets in, there goes our money. Because of his Saturn. Jupiter in the US Chart is in the early degrees of Cancer, it's the 24 degree Mercury in Cancer that Bush's Saturn conj. in the US 8th house and opposes the US Pluto in the 2nd, that's the money piece. Progressed Jupiter in Cancer now conjunct his Saturn, it will get worse before it's better, because p-jupiter will also oppose the US Natal Pluto.

Clymela, mainly notice the fixed crosses are SO into being at the helm of having power over society's structure.
Maybe this will help cure any hidden romantic notions:
http://www.all4humor.com/images/files/Scary%20Hillary%20Clinton.jpg

You bet, Sally. A bit a of spell of national depression. Haven't looked at those particular details in years...because it was too depressing!
To quote Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either this wallpaper goes or I do."

By the way. Many electeds have more wholesome release points for those fixed cross patterns, ie., Biden's jupiter in cancer. It is rare not to have perspective-enhancing, wisdom provoking points of relief. HC has only her awkward pisces moon. And sorry, her chart is full of pain, unreconciled pain which in turn is not so good for this country's functioning and recovery after such a wounding by bush.
I admit my bad for the Hillary link. But it's how I feel.

By W. Christopher Epler (Bill)

If Kucinich Launches Impeachment Hearings, Will This Make Him A Front Running Presidential Candidate?

The more impeachment becomes a reality is the more Dennis Kucinich will become a front running presidential candidate, because everyone knows it was and is 100% his baby. And if impeachment happens it will almost certainly catalyze hearings on the TRUTH of 9/11 and the Bush money cow Oil Wars for the vampire elites. In short, impeachment will rock the planet and President Kucinich will be a real possibility. Hillary who?

http://www.opednews.com:80/articles/opedne_w__chris_071116_if_kucinich_launches.htm

OpEdNews

Original Content at http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_ron_full_071118_reversing_bush_s_imp.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
November 18, 2007

Reversing Bush's Imposed Legacy in the Next Administration

By Ron Fullwood

WHEN, and if, Bush leaves office it will take an internal revolution by the next administration to reverse and undo the damage he's done to our democracy at home and to our influence and relationship with other countries around the world. Assuming that a Democrat will assume the presidency, he or she will be challenged to dig through the layers of anti-democratic initiatives and autocratic appointments which the Bushites have imposed on America without any significant interference or control on them from those legislators charged with exercising the checks and balances proscribed by the constitution they're pledged to uphold and defend.

http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/print_friendly.php?p=opedne_ron_full_071118_reversing_bush_s_imp.htm

OpEdNews

Original Content at http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_w__chris_071117_a_short_and_sweet_th.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
November 17, 2007

A short and sweet thank you to all liberal/progressive sites.

By W. Christopher Epler (Bill)

I am not going to be equal to this, my gratitude is so limitless, but these progressive/liberal sites are now (I think) the best thing going in America.

Here is the collective American consciousness and here we can chat and criticize and inspire each other. Here we have internet "town hall meetings" and its win/win for America.

Yes, sometimes you get whacked (sometimes "I" certainly get whacked), but, hey, isn't that just a symptom of being in an extended political family?

Most of all I want to thank the folks who came up with the bucks and brains to start and maintain these sites. When I'm not too busted (Bush's taxes are murder), I contribute from time to time, and to all the rest of you who contribute, you have the thanks of us all.

http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/print_friendly.php?p=opedne_w__chris_071117_a_short_and_sweet_th.htm

Woo hoo! Paging Garry and any Dick "Dick" Cheney detractors.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/5309647.html

Oh Gawd...........just what we need, neocon aliens!
QOP

Sally, your 11/17 10:27 pm post really struck a chord with me. Biden, dodd and Kucinich appear to represent what i feel is the real democratic voice. But none of them has has a snowballs proverbial chance. That said, I would still love to see a woman elected president. But it has to be a woman who is in synch with democratic principles. I really wish Hillary were. But i am sick of the "wrong" votes on the war and the obvious pandering for a vote instead of telling us what she really thinks. She stands for nothing more than what her focus group tells her citizens want to hear. I have no hope that the democrats will nominate someone i can whole heartedly vote for. But i will vote (probably holding my nose)for the nominee because the alternative will be so much worse. I cant tell you how painful this is.

Tomorrow, 11-19-07 the comet Holmes (disc.11-06-1892) has an appointment (exact conjunction) with the fixed star "Marik":

Influences of the constellation: It gives an intelligent, strong, bold and adventurous nature, but a tendency to lying. By the Kabalists it is associated with the Hebrew letter Lamed and the 12th Tarot Trump "The Hanged Man". (The Fixed Stars and Constellations in Astrology, Vivian E. Robson, 1923).

The constellation is indicative of events effecting large numbers of people, especially those events caused by major meteorological phenomena. When prominent in a natal chart it is said to denote adventurous individuals, but also those who are less than honest in their dealings with others. (Fixed Stars and Judicial Astrology, George Noonan 1990 published by AFA. ISBN 0-86690-376-3. ).

Just love this thread!

For all following the writers' guild strike, Firedog Lake has some interesting updates:

>http://www.firedoglake.com

Barbara

Fixed star name correction: It's "Mirfak" NOT
"Marik".

Dear Sally,

Unlimited Birthday Blessings to thee and wishes galore for a happy, healthy, wealthy, love-filled year....

So fortunate to be a beneficiary of your clarity inducing, wise and profound astro understandings of life -- so we can approach life without fear-- and instead choose love and evolve:-)))

Busybodies in Colorado...

Court clears way for egg rights showdown

By P. SOLOMON BANDA, Associated Press Writer
Tue Nov 13, 9:19 PM ET

The Colorado Supreme Court cleared the way Tuesday for an anti-abortion group to collect signatures for a ballot measure that would define a fertilized egg as a person.

The court approved the language of the proposal, rejecting a challenge from abortion-rights supporters who argued it was misleading and dealt with more than one subject in violation of the state constitution.

If approved by voters, the measure would give fertilized eggs the state constitutional protections of inalienable rights, justice and due process.

"Proponents of this initiative have publicly stated that the goal is to make all abortion illegal — but nothing in the language of the initiative or its title even mentions abortion," Kathryn Wittneben of NARAL Pro-Choice Colorado said in a statement. "If that's not misleading, I don't know what is."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071114/ap_on_re_us/abortion_measure_1&printer=1;_ylt=AgvO3l4O92W80hWbKEvRX7pH2ocA

Britain is a US client state and should not forget it, says the neocons' oracle

As Brown reins in critical colleagues, one American stays refreshingly candid about the nature of the special relationship

Geoffrey Wheatcroft
Monday November 19, 2007
The Guardian

The past week has not been a happy one for those who held what Robert Harris, writing in the Guardian 18 months ago, called the "peculiar - one might almost say touching - view prevalent on these pages that Brown, once he becomes prime minister, is suddenly going to provide an entirely different kind of Labour government". First came the bullying of Admiral Lord West into an about-turn and "Aye, aye, sir!", then the humiliation of David Miliband when Downing Street tipped off the Sun that the foreign secretary's Bruges speech on Europe had been blue-pencilled by the prime minister's office. A different kind of government? The end to spin that Gordon Brown himself promised last summer? Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell at their worst couldn't have displayed greater brutality or trickiness.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2213074,00.html

Fran Townsend, Bush's counter terrorism advisor has resigned. No link yet.

Too too interesting.

What next?

http://www.uclick.com/client/nyt/db/

Happy Monday with some anti-partisan commentary:

http://capitolhillblue.com/cont/node/3829/print

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5260

EXCLUSIVE: Daniel Ellsberg Says Sibel Edmonds
Case ‘Far More Explosive Than Pentagon Papers’

‘Gagged’ FBI Whistleblower, Risking Jail, Says American Media Has
Refused Her Offer to Disclose Classified Information, Including
Criminal Allegations, Information Concerning ‘Security of Americans’

Charges Several Mainstream Publications Have Been Informed of ‘Full
Story’ by Other FBI Leakers Nearly a Year Ago, Have Remained Mum…

More…

Arthur Finkelstein, a Republican consultant known for hard-edged campaigns that helped conservatives in the United States and Israel, has said in an interview published in Israel that President Bush's campaign strategy to court evangelical Christians had divided the country as never before, to the possible detriment of the Republican Party.

"From now on, anyone who belongs to the Republican Party will automatically find himself in the same group as the opponents of abortion, and anyone who supports abortion will automatically be labeled a Democrat," Mr. Finkelstein told Maariv, a daily, in an interview published on Friday. "The political center has disappeared, and the Republican Party has become the party of the Christian right more so than in any other period in modern history."

http://tinyurl.com/24dbbs - from NYT article

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1119/p01s01-wogn.html

OPEC's lost sway over oil prices

This weekend's summit focused mostly on poor nations, climate change, and the euro vs. the dollar.

From Mark Crispin Miller:

This, friends, is an EMERGENCY!

If the Senate grants the telecom giants retroactive immunity,
AT&T will wield absolute and total power over the US election system.

Thus the party will be able to remain on top without the infamous
and highly complicated apparatus of e-voting systems now in place.
Instead, AT&T will be positioned to distort the outcome centrally.

This cannot be allowed.

So please read this piece through, and pass it on--and go to
this ACLU Website, which will allow you to contact the Senate:

https://secure.aclu.org/site/Advocacy?pagename=homepage&id=765&page=UserAction&JServSessionIdr012=dbe23p7iq1.app25a

The Fate of a Free Presidential Election
in 2008 May Now Depend on the Senate

Created 11/19/2007 - 10:24am

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/contributors/1443">http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/contributors/1443>http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/contributors/1443

A BUZZFLASH GUEST CONTRIBUTION
by Elliot D. Cohen

In 1972, Nixon's burglars, all members of the Committee to Reelect
the President, had to risk breaking into Democratic National
Headquarters to try to gain an unfair election advantage for the GOP
over its Democratic opponent. Now, with Total Information Awareness
in place, the Bush White House may not even have to flip a switch to
have the Dems' private e-mails and phone conversations delivered to
its doorstep. Unfortunately, this may only be the tip of the iceberg
for the fate of free elections in America if Congress decides to
grant legal status and retroactive immunity to this massive
surveillance and data mining operation conducted by giant telecoms on
behalf of the President.

More at the link...

Happy Belated Birthday, Sally!

Love and Peace, Bhakti

What follows is a 9-part YouTube version of the film Fourth World War. If you've got the time and the inclination, (warning: a bit heady for early in the day)...from our wildman journalist Greg Palast. Note a few dates herein, NAFTA signed 1-1-94 (implications for mars/pluto into cap.).
This is about the entire world. As a side-effect one wonders if Hillary & Bill in the WH has deeper implications:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms4C0LPNPpI&feature=related

patb, WOW!

patb, NATA + CAFTA = HATA relocate to work, and poverty for people.

.........

Three Cups of Tea

http://www.threecupsoftea.com/AboutGreg.php

PatC, just shows to go you how Mortenson's (and ours and our kids on down) early upbringing turned him into a raw and rugged world-lover.
What a guy!...1000 more like him would change the world...HearHear!

I wonder if he is related o Vigo Mortonson, the impassioned actor/poet who has been so active with
ANSWER Coallition at the antiwar rallys since 2002?
QOP

If you feel like throwing a shoe at me after this I can really understand!!! Why is that the important people supporting this man are all those on the other side? I mean the publisher of Parade magazine?? Have you ever read that right wing rag that comes in the Sunday paper?? The most liberal person recomending him is tom Brokaw.
I don't know but something is wrong here.Is just that publishers are not allowed to talk to peole on our side?

Steve Judd

Jupiter/Pluto four degrees away and closing fast…….. Over 2007 Jupiter has summarised Pluto’s thirteen year journey through Sagittarius, and now the Sun is about to enter Sag and condense that summarising into a one month period, peaking in mid December. I’m still getting the imagery of worlds colliding and portals or doorways opening between worlds, or veils thinning enough to allow communication. The massive economic correction starting now will escalate substantially in a year’s time, when the options become clearer and 2010 will be only twenty months away. Don’t kid yourselves that we’ve got years to make decisions and take actions. A combination of astrological knowledge and seeing the world tells me that time is short now, and every day counts.

clymela, no worries, only my soft woolies but that would be to make you laugh.
Brokaw and his rarified towerish bretheren get to feel all globalish and awwwwww gee, kinda like Billy and HWB's feelin' like their Massive Shadows never existed! When you've a ton of cash in your mansion vaults you can afford those calm benign benevolent gods-from-the-sky helicopter visits to the hells you helped create...heck, as long as you don't have to STAY THERE.

Pshaw..just don't look at those messy annoying people bleeding on your OWN doorstep, huh guys.

Thank you parb!! Just had to let out a little steam. Kept thinking of Jeremy Skahil that brave young man bringing us word of the private armies headed for a town near you or me or us. Never heard of him from the likes of Tom Brokaw.

On that note...

http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2006/11/overwhelming-majority-of-credible.html

And CNN keeps playing videos of building demolitions around the country, all of them falling straight down in their footsteps, all being planned, controlled demolition.QOP

Amid Pakistani disaster, Bush Homeland Security advisor resigns

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Bush_Homeland_Security_adviser_resigns_1119.html

""Does Musharraf have the capability to take out that safe haven?" Wallace asked.

"Look at all the activity on the part of the Pakistani military since the seizure of the Red Mosque," Townsend remarked. "There's been numerous offensives."

"He clearly hasn't put a dent in their operations," Wallace replied.

Townsend then shifted to implying that al Qaeda does not have to be taken out immediately because it poses no immediate threat to the US. "The NIE is a strategic look about what the intelligence community's assessment is about the threat over the next three years," she said. "They point out that al Qaeda will be the principal threat to the US Homeland over the next three years and we need to take action against it. We're doing that with our Pakistani partners."

Wallace continued doggedly, "Why don't we take them out?""

Another great video of Naomi Wolf, doing a radio and video interview Sunday about the 10 steps to fascism and her new book, "End of America..." Ugh, crushing so hard.. :) Also she is an archetypal Scorpio with Sun/Venus conj, and more than once have I heard her hair described as a mane (strong Mars in Leo). Anyway, link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9PulYpjGs

My my my Scotty McClellan's new book outs Bush on the Plame affair. His publishers released a snippet today. Bush is having a very bad day.

Ok so Chris Mathews final comment on the Scotty McClellan revelation is that "finger nails growing on this corpse". eewww. I thought Sally mentioned this would come back to haunt Bush. Bingo.

Here's something Scott McClellan said in his book...

"The most powerful leader in the world had called upon me to speak on his behalf and help restore credibility he lost amid the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. So I stood at the White house briefing room podium in front of the glare of the klieg lights for the better part of two weeks and publicly exonerated two of the senior-most aides in the White House: Karl Rove and Scooter Libby.

There was one problem. It was not true.

I had unknowingly passed along false information. And five of the highest ranking officials in the administration were involved in my doing so: Rove, Libby, the vice President, the President's chief of staff, and the president himself."

Morgana, I've got to get that book. Here comes the brightness to light up Bush's 12th house of hidden enemies and clandestine secrets! Hello! Wow, there's a lot of crud in here...

Too bad this piece of legislation was put out during Merc Rx; I totally missed it:

http://www.americanfreedomcampaign.org/storage/afagenda/documents/AFA%20Act%20text.pdf

(just 3 pithy pages)

Contacting my rep and senators to tell them to support this! Pat C I already did the ACLU email thing about telco immunity, thanks for that link. As if being at antiwar rallies wasn't enough to be on a List somewhere... Oh well! liberty > security

Got to warn you sexy AW women--stay away from Vigo! My Scorpio daughter is in love with him and you don't want to mess with her. :-)

Yet another book to add to my reading list - Three Cups of Tea. Maybe I should join a book club. This administration should tahe a page out of Mortenson's book, and try spreading democracy his way, instead of with 5000 pound bombs, and guns. Would make the world a better place for all to live in.

As long as "grown" men think it's just the greatest thing to "bag" a 47-pound albino black bear, we're in deep doo - doo.
http://www.salon.com/wires/ap/2007/11/20/D8T1LFQ80_odd_albino_bear/index.html

There is a picture, but I don't recommend you go there.

Scottie's book will not be out until April 2008, this was the publisher's idea of an early tease and I expect there will be more.

As Steve Judd said (WV post) Jupiter and Pluto collide in Sagittarius with the Sun in mid-Dec. In mid-November 1994 six planets, plus an eclipse, plus Jupiter and Pluto and full Moon lined up in Scorpio, actually on my birthday and I thought sure enough the world would come to an end. Instead we went into an era of sex, lies, corruption etc. Now here we are thirteen years later and another line up in Sag. I wonder if we will make an attempt to usher in truth over the next few years. While Pluto and Jupiter will both be in Capricorn (briefly) the span between degrees will be too great to be considered a conjunction, however Jupiter will return to a late degree of Capricorn in 2020 and conjunct Pluto once again, every 12 to 13 years Jupiter and Pluto line up and everytime the collective focus changes. Pluto and Jupiter in Sagittarius has been in a trine to the Pluto in Leo generation and this last year has been quite the whirlwind for stars, we've not been able to take our eyes off of them, now with Pluto in Capricorn, it gives the Pluto in Virgo crowd a chance to prove their mettle and what they are about reaching their culmination between 2020 and 2022. It's a cycle of energy we have in this world and the energy keeps going around and around, repeating patterns that have come before. Unlocking the key to each of those patterns is a never ending challange but one I feel sure can be unlocked so we can perhaps, as a human race, learn to make different choices as we recognize the return of the pattern

http://www.astrowisdom.com/thisfullmoon.htm

Sally, what period of history was the last Pluto in Virgo?

November 21, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist

She’s No Morgenthau

By MAUREEN DOWD
WASHINGTON

Most of the time, Barack Obama seems like he’s boxing in the wrong weight class. But Monday in Fort Dodge, Iowa, he delivered an unscripted jab that was a beaut.

At a news conference, the Illinois senator was asked about Hillary Clinton’s attack on his qualifications. Making an economic speech in Knoxville, Iowa, earlier that day, the New York senator had touted her own know-how, saying that “there is one job we can’t afford on-the-job training for — that’s the job of our next president.” Her aides confirmed that she was referring to Obama.

Pressed to respond, Obama offered a zinger feathered with amused disdain: “My understanding was that she wasn’t Treasury secretary in the Clinton administration, so I don’t know exactly what experiences she’s claiming.”

Everybody laughed, including Obama.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/21/opinion/21dowd.html?ref=opinion&pagewanted=print

Pluto was in Virgo was from 1956 to 1971. The shortest period of time for Pluto in any sign is Scorpio, and the longest period is in Taurus.

Before that, the last time Pluto transited Virgo was about 1710 to about 1725.

If you have dollars, I urge you to get out,'' Rogers said in an interview from Singapore. He is chairman of New York-based Rogers Holdings, formerly known as Beeland Interests Inc. ``That's not a currency to own.''...

He is a total fool,'' Rogers said. ``He said Americans who buy only American goods are not affected if the value of the U.S. dollar goes down. I was terrified.''

Bernanke said the only effect of a weaker dollar on a typical American with their wealth in dollars, buying consumer goods in dollars, would be their buying powers, it makes imported goods more expensive.''

Rogers said that's not right.

``If you only buy American products and the dollar goes down, the price of oil goes up, copper goes up, wheat goes up,'' he said. ``That affects you. He doesn't understand the economy as far as I can see.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aXH9wCx1oydw

Essential reading on the Scotty book, done by a master analyst (Wheeler):
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2007/11/stop-making-sco.html

In other words, there's more there than you think and it's not what you think.

Just when you want to hate the Presidential candidates they go and do something like this. My hope is that the writers' strike will spread like a vicious virus that attacks the corporatist dictatorship we're becoming.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/11/21/top-three-dems-now-refuse_n_73713.html

Top Three Dems Now Refuse To Cross Picket Line For Debate

The Democratic frontrunners for the presidential nomination have all announced that they will forgo CBS News' upcoming presidential debate unless the network can reach a resolution with its employees who have authorized a strike.

Speaking earlier in the day, Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-NY, declared that: "The workers at CBS News have been without a contract for close to two and a half years. It is my hope that both sides will reach an agreement that results in a secure contract for the workers at CBS News but let me be clear: I will honor the picket line if the workers at CBS News decide to strike."

Hours later, her chief opponent for the nomination, Sen. Barack Obama, D-IL, weighed in as well, issuing the following statement through his campaign: "If CBS News is unable to reach an agreement with its workers and they decide to strike, Barack Obama will not cross the picket line to attend the debate."

Finally, former Sen. John Edwards, D-NC, offered his support for the strikers, declaring that he and his wife Elizabeth "will also honor any picket lines at CBS News, up to and including the CBS presidential debate on December 10th... I hope that in these disputes, management and the union are able to agree on a just settlement. But until those settlements are reached, I will stand firmly with these workers in their fight for a better life."

more...

Anyone see anything on the MSM about this?
Tomorrow in NH, Kucinich adding BUSH to the Cheney Impeachment Resolution
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Monday, November 19, 2007

Press Conference with Congressman Dennis Kucinich

KUCINICH TO PRESS ON IMPEACHMENT PROCEDURE IN WASHINGTON. “AMERICANS HAVE FAITH IN THE FRAMERS OF THE CONSTITUTION AND DEMAND THE BALANCE OF POWER BE RESTORED IN THEIR GOVERNMENT.”
WEDNESDAY, November 21, 2007
Me either!
QOP

Gilgamesh, the pluto/uranus in virgo group are the ones I trust to plow through the disgusting pile of self-serving destruction left by many (certainly not all, Gore & many more) of the pluto in leo, particularly the grand fixed crossers of 1940-41 and 46-47 group can be a really scary bunch in how they use that drive for power, like there's something critical missing inside of them (humanity?).
In 2010 with the revolutionary uranus/pluto square, it's right up the alley of that high high energy group born between 9-62 & 5-69. Those are the guys I trust to have clearer heads when it's time to purge the gov't and get things done. They'll also be receiving a longterm trine from pluto in capricorn to aid them in the reconstruction to come.

Karl Rove is on Charlie Rose BLAMING THE INVASION OF IRAQ ON CONGRESS???????? Because there was an election coming up!? Bush DIDN'T want to go to war in Iraq COngress made him do it????????
Am I going mad??????????
QOP

Karl Rove is on Charlie Rose BLAMING THE INVASION OF IRAQ ON CONGRESS???????? Because there was an election coming up!? Bush DIDN'T want to go to war in Iraq COngress made him do it????????
Am I going mad??????????
QOP

Damn, QOP! A whole swarm of pigs just flew over my house.

QOP, I do believe KKKKarl pulled those pigs from the nether regions of his bod, if you know what I mean.

PatC and Gilgamesh if you remember, along with Pluto in Virgo in the late 50's and 60's Uranus joined with Pluto in 1961 and stayed fairly close by for several years. Long enough for the Hippy movement to take form and build into a cultural shift in the US, folding Civil Rights and Women's Rights along with them. With Uranus opposing Virgo and the 1960's Uranus/Pluto conjunction and Pluto soon going into Capricorn to trine, we will see the beginning of a push back into the 60's and the hippy ideals and trying to bring them forward. Those "ideals" of a perfect world from the hippy movement are firmly lodged in the collective unconscious of the Pluto in Virgo generation, with Uranus added to the mix, some will be looking for creative ways to bring those "ideals" about, they have not been forgotten.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone. I still find a great deal for which to be thankful and the AW gang is a big part of that. I wonder if we will have this free flow of internet information in our future, I hope so, but I am sure thankful for it right now.

I think the Gerald Ford books may be the first part of an important answer.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.bjt

"...some will be looking for creative ways to bring those "ideals" about, they have not been forgotten."

That inspires me Sally. Let's hope there are more of them and that they are more successful than the neocons who have been trying to move the country back to the early and mid fifties.

I caught part of a hearing on C-Span where young people were testifying about their environmental work and the effects global warming has had on their communities. It was heart breaking. The boy who seemed to be the leader though, when asked something about the corporations who are determined to continue their poor environmental practices, he said, "They're going down!". The room erupted in cheers. It was heartening.

Happy Thanksgiving all you beautiful AWers. May your day be filled with peace, gratitude and giving.

I haven't read that book yet Betsy. I'll have to get a copy!

Be well Betsy.

Oh my goodness. I've been away celebrating another birthday. . .that of my daughter. And hooboy did we boogie, dip, dive and shake that thang. I toasted to many happy returns including one to you, Sally! You had to feel the many light bright good wishes coming your way, a deep thankfulness for your gifts you share with us.

And to you, AWers -- on this day of thanksgiving -- thank YOU! There is one thing i would ask of you today. Please take a moment to make a gesture of atonement to those we cruelly and savagely displaced many of whom remain in abject poverty.

During one of Kucinich's speeches -- that i was privileged to be present at -- he stated that to heal this country we had to admit to and atone for our murky past. On a pratical level, he suggested concrete steps for making such a correction. I've never forgotten this moment, nor the energy emanating from this entity who lives his beliefs while simultaneously appealling to our higher selves.

Happy Thanksgiving to all...we still have much
to be Thankful for...

What lovely sentiments on Thanksgiving and WV is right, we still have much to be thankful for. Karen, your "dipping, diving and shaking" is such a fabulous image and was a great reminder of what we do have to be thankful for and gives much hope that we will rock into the New Year.

Pat C I posted that Cspan hearing, a ways back.
That was the Young Leadership Council. They were 5,000 strong. the largest group that has appeared before Congress in HISTORY!
Did you see Ms Lockwod, the Eskimo teen from the drowning/having to relocate, Alaskan Village?
SHe broke down in tears, telling about the loss of traditional ways and DIET. The group cheered and chanted her on, while she regained her composure.
Then of course, coarse, Limbaugh smeared & ridiculed her!
Happy Thanksgiving to all my wonderful AW family! You all enrich immeasurably, my self imposed, dedication to my career, at this time in my life!

Hey; Bloomberg is as short as Kucinich, and his girlfriend is a head taller! ANd he HAS NOT ruled out running for Pres.!
Yes I'm vegging and watching THE parade!
QOP

QOP

Let me sing out too for this wonderful gang. This is the first thing I do in the mornin- my two alone times early morning and when I return home after work. Love to all and time to reflect on all who lived and died bringing all this to us.
Pat B.-speaking as one of those 46-47 Plutos in Leo let me say that there are many healers there-souls who have burnt through the obsession with self to realize that we are never alone and that we are one-Gods body as it were

It's good to remind ourselves (or at least for me to remind myself) that Mahatma Ghandi was a small person and he brought down the British Empire in India by declaring peaceful resistance and non-violence.

Mandela was encarcerated for 27 years, believing he would die in jail yet his strength of conviction brought down Apartheid, also peacefully.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Happy Thanksgiving to all and a belated Happy birthday to you, Sally!

Remember the Constitution today and all the men and women who gave it life.

" we will see the beginning of a push back into the 60's and the hippy ideals and trying to bring them forward. Those "ideals" of a perfect world from the hippy movement are firmly lodged in the collective unconscious of the Pluto in Virgo generation"

That is and has been the model here in my Brooklyn arts community for many years. Psychedelic music and psychedelic dressing like miniskirts and go go boots, colorful clothing are the norm here. Such a pleasure. Women look feminine again and men look romantic. When I walk back home to my stuffy neighborhood everyone's wearing black and grey and looks conformist in their brand name clothing.
My teenager crush on Jim Morrison has resurfaced and listening to the Doors, Cream, etc makes my sensibilities fly and soar. The Summer of Love show at the Whitney museum was so inspirational and I discoverd the WHY of how I illustrate, the influence was right out of that time. Gorgeous, intricate collages without a computer blew me away.

Happy T day AW.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

Next month Jupiter and Pluto together will both trine my natal Pluto. Venus conjunct Saturn, just a lot of hard work and a bit of broodiness and calls from bill collectors.

I am registered for all my classes until late next year, I finally got my credits applied to my degree, and can skip a couple. The Vote By Mail paper is now finished, and the other final paper should be done tonight!

Oh, clymela, you didn't read my disclaimer! I meant the Fixed Grand CROSSES. Heck, even Kucinich has them in spades. It's people structuring society, and that can also mean a tremendous force for beautiful things to happen (or, not). Ghandi (stopped beating his wife), Castro, a gazillion in our gov't including Pelosi, Leiberman, Hillary, progressives as well as the power-mad. Sometimes an over-achieving big frog in too small a pond in the workplace.
I too am in your age group fortunately without the that power-nuts fixedness as I know you are too.
Even so, always the choice how to use it, I suppose. I never prejudge a person based on that anyway, there's always SO much more to a person's makeup.

Sacred thanksgiving to all, and to a guy like Kucinich who says we must relate to the bloodshed that underpins the acquiring of this beautiful land. who doesn't love that his vision is there for all to see, reverence for life and love amidst this wall of well, it's opposite.

patb- no disclaimer needed either. I was just skatting along with you. we are so often in harmony that I wasn't offended just wanting to point out that so often what is dangerous is what makes for the greatest beauty.

Before going back to my second final paper and getting a week off, I want to say that the Day after Thanksgiving is one of the best days of the year for me. Lots of leftovers, and there is still Christmas to look forward to. There isn't that same letdown feeling after Christmas. Maybe it's all of the hype, or the lack of disappointment in the presents.

If any of your are sleeping late, rest well! If you are shopping, hope you find what you are looking for at a price better than you hoped for. All the rest of you, good leftovers and plenty of sweet potato pie.

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/editorblog/009

Scott McClellan Didn't Out Bush for High Crimes and Misdemeanors, Cheney Did.
The BuzzFlash Editor's Blog.
BUZZFLASH EDITOR'S BLOG

Mark Karlin, Editor and Publisher, BuzzFlash.com

November 23, 2007

As we’ve noted before, BuzzFlash feels personally invested in the exposing of the White House treason surrounding the outing of Valerie Plame, which resulted in impairing our national security when it comes to tracking weapons of mass destruction. Following up on a David Corn commentary shortly after the infamous Bob "The Traitor" Novak column, BuzzFlash helped Corn raise the alarm about the dangerous and illegal significance of the identification of Plame as a CIA operative.

So it is with astonishment that we have watched the mainstream media ignore or dismiss the revelation by once White House loyalist Scott McClellan that Cheney and Bush were likely involved in the outing and knowingly sent him out to lie to the press about the role of the two key messengers: Libby and Rove.

You’ve no doubt heard by now that the McClellan admission was made in a first person excerpt from a book being printed early next year by Public Affairs Press (affiliated with the Perseus Group).

More at the link...

Carol, congratulations on all your great accomplishments! Wow! You are just awesome!

Thank you for such warm wishes for these holiday times. Right back at you!

Thanks, Pat C! I came in here earlier and noticed the lack of activity, and realized that a lot of you are like my sister: you cooked all night long two nights ago, and could use a breather. Either than, or out shopping.

It's just great knowing that my academic career looks good right now, and my schedule is set for the next two years (I am on track to graduate in late 2009). Two years will go so quickly, I know. But the real reward is right now. Going back to school has really been a great stimulus for my mind.I like having something to look forward to instead of being broody until I am called back to work.

Once I finish my second paper (taking a breather now), I will post that Vote By
Mail Paper somewhere, or find some way to share that document. You will never feel the same way about poll voting again after you read it.

Hi AWs!

Any predictions for the Australian elections on Saturday?

Jase

The twit is going to get his ass whipped. Long
overdue!

Cuomo's put out a call-to-action. Very inspiring. Hope it inspires lots:
http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/11/23/our-lady-of-the-law/

I think that this was the best Thanksgiving in years here at our house.Not as many leftovers perhaps because they got divided up so many ways but so much love and light and gratitude.Right now sitting here in the living room with my grandson and his bf as they practice burping and grossing each other out, well grossing grandma out,I am grateful for the peace and wealth that allows these guys at 11 to be as gross as little boys can be.

Teehee, Clymela! I can see them now!

http://tinyurl.com/2ns6ll

Treason is not old news.

So, I woke up Thanksgiving morning and decided to go through the charts of the founding fathers to see about Pluto and sign distribution. Decided to just go with the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the delegates to the Constitutional Convention (not all but most signed it, but counted them all anyway), which comes to 103. 8 signed both, so I just removed the dupes. All birth data from Wikipedia, so ymmv. I haphazardly cross-checked with other online sources, and even if the dates are wrong, for the most part just the year is enough. I think for two there was some question of cusp overlap.

Pluto in:

(an even spread would be roughly 20% assuming someone born in 1693 would be fired up to start a revolution, which considering the longevity of a lot of these guys considering the times is not so far-fetched)

Leo: 2 (1.94%)
Virgo: 13 (12.62%)
Libra: 32 (31.07%)
Scorpio: 36 (34.95%)
Sagittarius: 20 (19.42%)

This was a lot of fun; I have a ton of ideas but for now I will just go for Uranus aspects within 3' long/1.2' decl for these guys next after I figure out what a control would be. Come to think of it, maybe just basic Sun sign distribution lol. I need to get the astrodatabank software as this kind of work is tedious with just astrolog and some unix command line tools. Note that the sign of shortest transit by Pluto, Scorpio, is the most populated. Those guys weren't messing around! Any ideas why the Pluto in Virgo folks underrepresented? I had expected a lot more of them, which is partly why I started this anyway. Some thoughts: 1. "behind the scenes" influence 2. too busy getting real work done 3. more focus on service and humility 4. opposing the king too hard on the intestines ;-)

disclaimer: for entertainment purposes only, not real science etc etc

more later

Oh, re: Uranus/Pluto conj in Virgo from the mid-60s natives, I found this aspect a lot in prominent folks of the 90s (while Uranus and Neptune in Cap trining it), esp. Hollywood; Janeane Garofalo comes immediately to mind. Ability for affecting powerful changes if it aspects personal planets.

Gilgamesh, looks promising. Considering that the Declaration has Pluto in Capricorn, I am not surprised that there weren't many Pluto in Leo signers. The reason why we have so many Pluto in Leo people now was that Leo's sojourn in Leo was less than 20 years (1940's-1956) and the longer lifespans of people. I was watching the funeral of a person who died when he was 68-he would have been considered quite elderly back then. Now 68 is considered young. People in their 50's now have living parents-not only that-but even a living grandparent. That was unusual back then for all but the best cared for or the most sturdy.

You may want to do an Excel spreadsheet (There are sites that have a spreadsheet you can share online). I swear, they are trying to migrate office work to that great big universal computer. Work anywhere! Work anytime! For any salary!......

Happy Thanksgiving!

Carol, thankyou for the "68 is not old any more."
Gilgamesh, good work. And a good thanksgiving holiday to you both.bjt

Carol, thankyou for the "68 is not old any more."
Gilgamesh, good work. And a good thanksgiving holiday to you both.bjt