Sally,
I also love both Jimmy Carter and Al Gore. They've had to face the worst kind of humiliating defeat and both somehow kept working tirelessly towards the fulfillment of their respective visions. It's interesting that their vision was for a better world for everyone and not for personal wealth. I can't think of any two people who are more symbolic of the Phoenix rising from the ashes or the rebirth that Pluto energy embodies. They are an excellent example of what a true hero is. They make me proud too.

Storing up his treasure in heaven and working towards a prosperous future for all. That million will be well spent.

Sally I love the analogy of Batman and the Joker! Now if only the Dem's could draw such a simple analogy.

I saw a poll on MSNBC I am hopeing the drumbeat propels Al to run.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21264312/

Meanwhile, Condi and Gates are chatting with Putin and he's none too happy with us.

The media is already poopoo'ing a run by Al, it would upend the proverbial apple cart. I hope he tips the cart over!

Sally thanks for taking a look at our Batman and the nefarious Joker!

Thanks guys, I am so proud of our two presidents who have won the Nobel, I saw a post at MSNBC where some guy say this was a travesty, they should give Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld the Nobel Peace Prize and I wondered what part of "peace" do people not get. Then I realized the amount of people who actually bought the "war is peace" bull this group put out there.

Gore has a press conference at 1:30 pm, that might be when he gives a "sherman statement" or it might just be a "thanks and I'm honored to have won" speech. Tim Russert said this morning "what if we pick a candidate and something happens to them or we have buyers remorse for the candidate, Gore would have the money and the backing to pick up in March, April or May (last chance call)I cannot figure out why Gore keeps leaving that slightly open door, I am waiting to see if he closes it today, I hope not. We need something to hope for in this country even if it doesn't come through. His win does seem to make our present leaders small by comparison.

Sally, isn't that just the truth, he makes our current leaders look small, and in my eyes very ineffective.

What a day! What a lovely tribute, Cap'n Sally. And just think--today Merc goes retro. I kept waiting for some snafu. Maybe that didn't happen because it's a reward for past contributions. Hip, hip, hooray for Al Gore!
.

Michael, per your post listed below, I'm not name-calling, just calling you out in your misguided comments, which also happen to mostly be not true. Sorry. I did try to give you the benefit of the doubt and point out "with arguments", not "name-calling", what I perceive to be your constant "apologia" for the powers that be. I don't really care if you are republican/democrat/independent or whatever. The only reason I've bothered to post (after lurking for quite some time) is that you remind me of Fox News, Fair and Balanced, and full of misconceptions (I'm being polite). As Sally stated, this is not a forum for debate, it's to discuss issues. You're debating. Not discussing. I have yet to hear you acknowledge any poster's trying to set the record straight or provide facts about the issues you write about. You're just playing ping-pong.

cheers,
Marta
+++++++++

Hi Marta, "daffy"? LOL! Nah, not daffy, just trying to be fairminded in classic Libran fashion is all.

But I do have to say with all due respect, that the constant namecalling-troll, ghoul, lowlife, etc-doesnt help the arguments made. They only show the people making the remarks out to have weak positions.

I'm not a Republican or Democrat, I'm a centrist, and either side can get my vote, as I said before. If we all stop with the ad hominem assaults, and keep an openmind, maybe we can get to the truth of things. And enjoy some good astrology too.

Pointless ping pong! Like reasoning with a pre-programmed robot. Resistance is futile...

Please don't feed the troll. It was so refreshing to come over here.

I have been alert to planetary hits to 4 Virgo (the degree of August 28th's eclipse), chiefly this Saturday's Venus-Saturn conjunction on that eclipse degree. I'm gratified to see that Al Gore's progressed Mars is on this eclipse degree. T-Saturn to his P-Mars is the patience of the elder statesman who shows great discipline. T-Venus joining the mix in the mix reveals Gore's diplomacy and graciousness.

Although Al Gore's P-Jupiter is retrograde, it is conjoined to Galacic Center -- where T-Pluto is now. Both are in a tight opposition to his Promethean P-Uranus, granting him a window of time to enhance and use great, great persuasive, political power. I agree with Sally that Gore's time is NOW.

His progressed Jupiter in tighter opposition to P-Uranus both t-square into his progressed JUNO at 25 Scorpio. Sun and when Mercury goes direct again, will cross 25 Scorpio setting off that powerful political opposition. T-Pluto reaches 0 Cap Jan 20, 2008, which is only two degrees shy of Gore's natal MOON in governmental, administrative Capricorn. Pluto makes the conjunction Oct 12, 1009. Pluto-Moon is highly transformative. It's in Gore's 5th house of "gambles," so what would he challenge Congress (his natal 11th) to do about our world's problems? Gore's progressed Moon is conjunct the USA's progressed Sun. That's a "New Moon" moment if there ever was one.

There's tons more lining up in Mr. Gore's chart. I.E., his progressed Sun is conjunct the USA"s Uranus. His "will" is aligned with the need for renovation, challenge, and an upset of the status quo.

Our political system is broken. Driven over a cliff by radical Neocons using the GOP as a "front" organization and enabled by a cowed Democratic Party, special interest groups and a rather ill minority that have highjacked and busily work at dismantling our country.

My estimate is that it will take til 2022, the USA's Pluto Return to get back in line with the Constitution. I don't think that the USA will be the same country by that point. It will be in name only, but we'll have to take the good with the bad. The globalization ship has sailed. We're on our way to becoming "The United Federation of Planets." That's very Star Trek, but it's also an apt metaphor for the so-called Age of Aquarius. As a witty and bright poster said here: Resistance is Futile.

Claudia

Rob Edwards of Woodbridge, Connecticut

Sadly many are still in a state of disinformation and hatred!

It is a sad world in which we live when bad science (and even a lack of any data at all on many points) leads to so much hype or accolades, especially the award of the Nobel Peace Prize. The IPCC is a farce. View the CBC documentary from 2005, which is backed up by clear and reproducible science, to understand how wrong the IPCC and Al Gore actually are
QOP

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/12/gore.nobel.reader.feedback/index.html

That 30% sure is a loud bunch aren't they.

I read somewhere that about 19% of people in the US suffer from one form or another of mental illness. That means that more than half the people who support Bush are certifiably nuts.

OK, just to set the record straight on Bush supporters here's a link to the National Insitute of Mental Health. It turns out I was wrong, but only in thinking Bush supporters were half and half crazy/sane. Evidently all his supporters fit.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america.shtml

Mental Disorders in America

Mental disorders are common in the United States and internationally. An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.1 When applied to the 2004 U.S. Census residential population estimate for ages 18 and older, this figure translates to 57.7 million people.2Even though mental disorders are widespread in the population, the main burden of illness is concentrated in a much smaller proportion — about 6 percent, or 1 in 17 — who suffer from a serious mental illness.1 In addition, mental disorders are the leading cause of disability in the U.S. and Canada for ages 15-44.3 Many people suffer from more than one mental disorder at a given time. Nearly half (45 percent) of those with any mental disorder meet criteria for 2 or more disorders, with severity strongly related to comorbidity.1

In the U.S., mental disorders are diagnosed based on the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth edition (DSM-IV).4

BTW, Sally his birth time is 12:53 pm-Sun in the Ninth House. With Pluto to conjunct his Moon/Jupiter conjunction very shortly?

I don't get a laugh out of many things regarding the Bush administration, but this one is an exception. It really made me laugh because I know they have no power to do this, and I loved the visual. Hope it gives you a giggle as well. This has been a great day of Mercury Retrograde corrective action.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/10/12/11451/905

BREAKING: SCOTUS Declares Bush the Nobel Peace Prize Winner

Oslo: A review of the ballots in the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize has shown that George W. Bush is the winner of the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize. James Baker III has been sent by the Bush Administration to coordinate efforts on the ground. The United States Supreme Court in a surprise vote of 5 to 4 have declared George W. Bush the winner of the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize.

More...

LOL!!

Ha Carol, thanks for the catch on the Gore time. Now this was a perfect retrograde moment, being conscious of the Merc retrograde, I looked at the date and time three times to make sure I got the time right and still put up AM, just great. Thank you so much

Sally, Morgana or anyone else reading this, I have a question or two. In your experience, what does the chart of an environmentalist look like? Astrologically, how do we explain the current focus and attention on climate change? Morgana, I did email you last night but I guess Mercury retrograde is up to its old tricks LOL. I'll email again soon. Thanks.

LOL Pat C, that's some excellent snark. I stayed up all night so that I could see Gore win. There was another related diary on Kos around 5 am that went the other proper direction called 'Bush Wins Nuremberg War Award'.

Surfing TV at 5 am showed both CNN and the dreaded Fixed News bashing away on Gore. Let them eat their cold black hearts out.

Congrats Mr. Real President Al Gore. You deserve it and I'm so proud.

Here you go Shez SpiritEye. Great read!

'Bush Wins Nuremberg War Award'

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/10/12/35935/119

Shylurker, you seem to be a reasonable person, but when you go to talking about "feeding trolls" you sound more like the mentally challenged people Lunaoscura talked about than any Bush supporter. And again for the record I'm not in the man's camp, I was merely setting the record straight about charges made against him that simply are not true. I would and have done the same thing in the case of Bill Clinton.

If there is one small criticism I have of the forum its that there seems to be little astrological investigation and discussion beyond the initial post. After that a flood of nonastrological links and articles and blog posts are pasted in, with an astrology tidbit thrown in here or there. And the main ones who do this are the first ones to call someone names, instead of presenting astrology as testimony for their positions.

Please don't get me wrong because in order to do political astrology well you need to have access to (a much more balanced) information, news, history and so on. Its just that I wished astrology were combined more with the content. Among other things it keeps the forum from coming off as a rally and more like a learning space.

The post above discussing the astrology of Al Gore in relation to his winning the Nobel prize is a great example, and I for one would like to see more of that, instead of merely cutting and pasting links and articles that preach to the choir, and shrieks of "troll" when someone dares to have the gall to disagree. Many of you here are old enough to be mothers, and moms shouldn't act like that.

I take exception to that slur because I am not here to disrupt anything, like I said I'm here to learn and interact with people. Much of the info here I find to be very interesting, even if I disagree with it. The point, for me at least, is to gather information, not "convert" somebody, or "damn" them if they don't.
I'm honest enough to admit to myself when I don't know something astrologically or otherwise. There are many things posted here that would really be great if some astrology were put behind it.

Hi Marta. Alright lets consider your points. First of all, exactly where am I wrong? Please point this out to me, and not with generalities, be specific. I said that Bill Clinton was a moderate and provided proof. I said that Geo W Bush was not a racist, nor did he appoint unqualified people in that regard, and again I provided proof. I said that MoveOn could have been more pointed and on-point in their ad instead of being the subject themselves, and provided a path that even some on your side of the aisle had to admit made sense.

Moreover, I never said that you called me names, I mentioned the parties by name I believe. And while you say we're not here to debate, we most certainly aren't having a discussion either, because that would entail and exchange of ideas in a calm way. What you and some others want to do is have an echo chamber where what you say, read and think is reinforced back to you. Nothing is questioned or challenged. Its anti-intellectual. Sound familiar? Its the same many on your side would and have said about Bush.

You see what you have to get about me Marta is I couldn't care less about someone's precious ideology. I care about helping people and I care about growing as a person, which means that in order for me to do both I have to be willing to go outside my comfort zone. When others cry out "troll" and so on, what they're really saying is that they don't want to come out of their comfort zone. That's fine, but then don't try to convince anyone that you're seeking the truth. What you're seeking is sycophants. I'm not one of them, sorry.

Now, perhaps you can help me w/loking at a chart and seeing "environmentalist" in it? If so I would love to hear what you have to say. Thanks.

Today I thought that Al Gore is too good to be President. He is too good to have to deal with television networks that would rather talk about the lowest in our natures and our lives than talk about the highest we could create together.
I can not take seriously anyone who considers the current administration as legitimate. This administration is made up of wealthy thugs who want literally to kill anyone in their way. I would laugh at them if they weren't so hideously murderous.

Michael, you're debating again. I made a couple of observations to your comments. Go back and read them. I don't think it's necessary to repeat myself.

As far as working on a chart, I'm not an expert, so I can't help you there (or anywhere else it appears). My only observation at this point is you live in your own echo chamber, that's why you think others are in theirs. Fair and balanced, right? Ideology aside, of course.

Are you a litigator perchance?

Oh, and PS there are 3 reasons I visit AW every day, 1) political astrology, 2) the posts and commentaries and 3) the articles posted by the visitors. I suspect that most who come here come for the same reasons, or a combination thereof. If all you are looking for is astrology .... it's no wonder you seem disappointed.

But keep that open mind, it'll come in handy some day.

Here's some information to understand what might be Klinging on the mothership.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1438787

http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html

http://www.benfrank.net/disinfo/

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/index.htm

Guess who refuses to call and congratulate Al Gore:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g7HekgTpryrGQ3WAMmmO9E-O4sQgD8S7VSDG2
('Who' is pretty much at the bottom of the article and you know who is 'who' anyway, huh?)

Yes, clymela, it seems this is the Time of Thugs. Let us make every effort to reverse that and turn it around before they destroy us all. Rethuglicans. That fits, sad to say.

And Cap'n Sally, in your spare time (hahahaha), could you take a peek at Tipper's chart? They are a very married couple, and her chart might provide some more clues into whether he'll run or not. I wouldn't want to be faced with the arduous, numbing task of cleaning up all the Rethuglican messes/calamities/disasters that have occurred over the past six years. And I surely wouldn't want to do that if, instead, I had a chance to lead others in a vigorous effort to rescue our planet from destruction .

What a day!

OK, so what's up with this?
"At the center's original lodge, he proudly pointed out a stuffed bobcat, a wild turkey and a beaver that he recalled killing. The lobby of the Blackwater headquarters resembles a ski lodge with a twist: The front doors feature barrels from .50-caliber machine guns. Inside, a glass showcase displays replicas of guns used to assassinate presidents."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/12/AR2007101202487_5.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2007101202550

The miracle of Google: Tipper's Data:
Tipper Gore. August 19, 1948. 2:40 AM. Washington, DC

Thanks, Carol! Wow--even the time!

Shy, I've been following both of their charts since 2000 for clues as to whether he would run in 2004, 2008 etc. There are no names or names of jobs on an astrological chart all it shows are the energy potential around a person, town, country or situation. Both Tipper's and Gore's chart shows a power year or 18 months, Tipper's shows power for her spouse this year and next (a trine to her Saturn and Sun with Saturn ruling her 7th house)Actually her progressed Moon transits her husbands midheaven in 5 months, indicating heavy interaction with people through him. Both have a Jupiter return this year, with Tipper's coming first and Jupiter rules her midheaven. When I saw their pattern a year ago, my hope was his "wins" this year would compel him to take the step toward the Presidency. Even if he doesn't he continues to have a great 2007/2008/2009 year. His "star" is absolutely on the rise, but it's his choice how he uses that energy, as it is with all of us.

Oh, thank you ever so much, Cap'n Sally. So much to absorb and reflect upon. Have I told you lately how much I appreciate this site?

Thank you so much Shy, you know how much I appreciate those kind words. I don't know who posted those links above regarding people who go on sites with the express purpose of being divisive, but they are excellent and I want to thank who ever put them up.

The last link in that post is great. I laughed out loud. Here it is again. Thanks to the anonimous poster who brought it here.

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/index.htm

Me too lunaoscura, it's hilarious. I suddenly see the problem with the "fair and balanced" generation. Some things are not fair or balanced and there are rights and wrongs to live by in a civilized world. These poor kids are so confused and they just keep going round and round and don't really seem to know what they are talking about or what they themselves really think. We may have two generations of these folks before they pass off and something (hopefully more real) comes into view. I did read that the generation coming up will not believe anyone or any politician because they've been so lied to and marketed and recognize spin. That will be a very cynnical group

Sally I'm so sorry that you've picked up a professional "minder" here. Many of us in the blogoverse are documenting the number and names of Minders that have been widely dispensed to definitely disrupt and attempt to divide any and every progressive blog that gets a fair share of comments. This one seems to think he's too clever by half.

The constant barage of back-handed damning praise (*slap*) and personal attacks of the blog and readers mixed with Teh Insane Talking Points exuded with unctuous charm are a dead give away. He's pissing on our leg and saying it's raining, all the while double feigning: what stench you dumb wenches who can't run a blog the Right way? Any real truthseeker kindly watches their P's & Q's in a new community, not this -in the deep weeds pseudointellectual Bright Shiny Objects third degree/thousand questions but no answer will ever be good enough or correct- routine I see going on. The misinformation bait disguised as genuine-imitation curiosity is lame. Old hat that we see time and time again. It's all being carefully but transparently orchestrated.

I will add this. NO, we are not "disaffected women", regardless if that was conveniently and deliberately quoted, along with many other thinly veiled sexist remarks slipped in as much as possible. NO, it's not that we are "old enough to be mothers that should know better", it is that a great many of us here are old enough to be and ARE Grandmothers whom DO know. Much more than this minder. The difference between knowledge and wisdom is experience.

NO, this isn't a coven nor do you seem to understand the ancient Mother Goddess, Creatrix, several Nature religions, and Native American Spirituality that have nothing and everything to do with another Nature based one called Wicca. Go look up what the difference is between white, green, and black witches (I'll give you one hint, black witches wouldn't be comfortable with our Light here) and the roots that go back centuries and aeons. I really don't recall us discussing our religions or faiths here as we deem them to be private choices to practice as we see fit. It's exactly why you were asked to take it offline.

I remember the insulting gasbag this minder seems to be channeling on purpose enforcing the memes by lengthly quoting under the guise of "trying to understand independently", or doing an alter ego sockpuppet act even though more and more of us are complaining about it by the hour. My young grandson has better manners than this current one.

Don't even bother to address me, my Native American name was given to me for a reason and I See through you. After patiently observing, the only word left out by some of our brilliant beloved ladies here before 'Troll' was Concern. All the better to insult and discredit the readers, messenger, and most of all the message itself. If you want some respect try showing some because I'm not seeing an ounce of it coming from you. Perhaps you should go study common Blog Etiquette before you tackle complex higher learning. We do have Republican friends and family that are just as horrified along with us at the criminal regime that has illegally highjacked our country and are a menace to our Constitution and society.

This all brings to mind what the creator of Zeitgeist movie said: "... find out for themselves, for truth is not told, it is realized."

OT: Congrats again for the Peace Prize Mr. Gore. Peace Love Dove
Sally rocks our beautiful holographic fractal universe. Off to read the rec'd links above that more than likely mirror what I've finally had to speak up about...

Claudia, I just read your analysis of Al Gore for the second time. Thank you for posting it. But I'm having trouble with the part about Gore's progressed Mars-why do you place so much importance on this? And what kind of progression system are you using? I haven't really gotten into those yet, still working with the transits. Thanks.

Shez Spiriteye, I have to laugh outload after reading your long post. True, I haven't been a member of this site as long as you seem to suggest you have, but in the time I've been here actively posting and longer just reading along, I've yet to see you contribute anything, especially in an astrological way. That you would go out of your way to "chastise" me is interesting.

Unlike you and it seems, many others here, I don't let my personal feelings get in the way of the subject at hand. I deal with the facts as best I understand them, no matter where they're coming from, and the fact of the matter ma'am is that the source you have so much derision for is actually very talented at what he does. No one has to like his personal POV, and actually, I take issue with quite a few of his stances. As I do with quite a stances taken by various people here.

I have been nothing but respectful to everyone here, and have taken more personal insults, not by "Rethuglicans" but by people who claim both to be progressive and spiritually enlightened. Then these same people kick dirt on other people who say they are religious. Just within the past 48 hours there have been numerous postings about Christian evangelicals, and not in a favorable light (as if all of them can be lumped together and painted with a broad brush), and yet you cry foul when someone brings up your religion for discussion. Its OK to trash other folks' religion, but no one can even discuss yours. Remember, I have said twice, that I am not educated enough about Wicca etc, to give an opinion about one way or another. But I do recall reading about the addition of the Wiccan symbol of faith to the gravestones of fallen soldiers.

I have never said that this is a coven, nor have accused anyone here of being a witch etc. All of this are figments of your own imagination, ma'am. I only brought the issue up because someone else in the forum did. If they would have never mentioned it, we wouldn't be talking about it now. The source I quoted seemed to be informative and in any event included astrological analysis with his commentary, which I cannot say is true in your or many others' cases here.

Yes, we Pluto in Libra people are pesky middle of the roaders, which explains why you see more and more independent voters. We don't lean too far to the left or right, we see the folly of such a notion. Most of us think that a woman has the right to choose, but that a minor teenage girl should have the parents weigh in before going accross statelines to exercise hers. Poor kids should get healthcare, but its not the state's job to give everyone that. Affirmative action is a good idea, but that isn't what is hurting black people in the inner city right now, its the fact that so many of their young people aren't graduating high school and dropping out. Civil unions is a good idea for gay people because they get to have the rights of marriage and the actual word stays in the religious people's camp, everyone gets something out of the deal. You see Shez, my generation came of age watching yours bickering and sniping at each other and we're sick of it. We want real solutions to real problems, not grandstanding and personal attacks and blind faith to ideologies.

That's why I keep bringing up Bill Clinton as a success story, especially as a Democratic President, because he understood all these things. But then again he has a Libra rising and a million planets thre too LOL.

One of the reasons I have been an almost daily reader of this blog for the past 3 years is, that people will post new important information with links and leave it up to the reader to make his or her own opinion.
Another fantastic aspect of this site is the historical background given to astrological constellation. This is in my opinion the only valid way to make interpretations of momentary or future astro interpretations of events or persons.
The links given to world wide political happenings are necessary to make the correct interpretations and to keep an open mind. We are all formed in our behavior by our genes, the environment and personal interchange between our peers till the age of 5-6. If we have learned by that time to be open minded, tolerant and developed a social competence than we/ our peer have done a good job.
Provoking other people constantly is not polite, it is also demeaning and in my opinion, one is not a "Mensch" -human being.
So please stop this provocation and let us have our fantastic informational interchange back. Where else can one find such a variety of information and inputs into so many subjects!!!

Marta, I read both the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times. I read Mother Jones and The Weekly Standard. I'll read something James Carville wrote and then read something on Karl Rove. Can you say that your reading list is as "fair and balanced"?

So no ma'am, I live in no one's echo chamber. I'm very wary of ideology from either side, because such a position isn't interested in the truth or in finding practical solutions. And while you have commented on what I've said, thy don't address the specifics of what I said.

Am I a litigator? You might be better at astrology than you give yourself credit for. If you would put more effort in that direction the discussions would be so much more productive. Thanks.

Good morning Charles. Your opening comments goes right to the heart of the matter here. Because if one does come to their own conclusions on that which is presented, and they are at variance with the groupthink mindset, they are called all kinds of juvenile names and the like, instead of actually dealing with the position one takes.

Also, I've said that the information here is very important, and I've got quite a bit of reading to do over the weekend in this regard. That said, I maintain what I said as what I see as the information to astrology ratio being a bit unbalanced.

The only way you know that you have the truth is if it can withstand questioning from those who don't share your POV. This is why I'm neither on the left or right.

Lunaoscura, its interesting you would post up the NIMH study. The chart of the United States shows a Void of course Moon in Aquarius in the 3rd House which represents the mental state, right? And then we have Mercury retrograde in Cancer, the sign ruled by the Moon. So these positions definitely would reflect what you say I think.

But I'm not sure they apply in the way you seem to suggest. Remember, the study you quoted didn't single out Republicans, it spoke to the US population as a whole. Which means, that at least theoretically, a few Democrats or progressives can be found among the multitude as well right?

So, I think that in order for you to make a case for your position, you would have to go beyond the chart of the country and instead use the chart of the parties. Per the charts posted on this website and that are in common usage among astrologers, I think we can note the following:

Democratic party has Mercury in Taurus retrograde and combust by the Sun, and square the Moon and Pluto, with the Moon Void of course

Republican party has Mercury in Leo, the sign of the Sun, sextile Venus and Saturn in Gemini, and square Uranus. Mercury is not retrograde or combust, and Mercury itself is in the 9th House (in the case of the Democrats, Mercury is in the 10th). On the other hand, the Moon is in fall in Scorpio, though not Void, its last aspect is to Mars in the 10th House.

So, on the basis of what I noted above, which party comes off as crazy? Please3 explain? Thanks.

Michael, please read this link! and stop!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_usurper
One of the things you could have found out on this blog is- what kind of job postion had the German Chancelor Dr. Merkel under the Honegger regime.

You exactly portray this position-- payed or just for fun?

"I read somewhere that about 19% of people in the US suffer from one form or another of mental illness. That means that more than half the people who support Bush are certifiably nuts."

Lunaoscura, that is highly offensive post. I suffer from bipolar and my daughter has been diagnosed with Aspberger's. Does that make us 'nuts'? In your detirmined effort to have a go at your political opponents, you have revealed your own shadow and ignorance. Please choose your words more wisely.

My little slideshow from last month:

http://www.slideshare.net/aquariusmoonduhart/a-meditation-for-peace/</a
Am working on one for Al Gore, and I hope to be able to fileshare something with audio and video too. How the Web has so made me creative!

My Al Gore Slide:
http://www.slideshare.net/aquariusmoonduhart/pray-al-gore-into-the-race/

My birthday morning finds me in a creative and inventive mood. You will find that something is missing from the slideshows: the audio. My site does have a special slideshow utility I may use for its intended purpose, but I long to be able to share stuff with you more directly.

Stymied for the moment on two papers for school and waiting on feedback before proceeding. Would like to get ahead so I can feel more free to work on my site again.

No birthday plans besides getting some mail-I wish it were money instead.

And in yet another instance of the "pot calling the kettle black," we have Kindasleezy calling for greater human rights in Russia. Say what?

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5isR7JhLpeZPvLgYgGkQYbnS2xQ3AD8S8A9J80

I put up the disinfo links and you are welcome,
Love to research.

Hey check out what the Astrodatabankblog had to say about AW's troublemaker (or troublemaker's mentor), sound familiar?:

http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/Feedback.asp?ChartID=49972

Paula R. Gassmann, Moderator 7/27/2006
" To Mu Min M. Bey: Your comments of 7.22.06 have a disingenuous quality to them, as if they were written for another publication, and simply forwarded here for other ADB posters to see, without intention of dialogue.
You claim that ADB "falters" for pointing out that astrologers strive to read horoscopes without bias. This statement is critical of something most astrologers consider valuable, as has been evident in the discussion on these pages. You claim that ADB's statement is taken from the psychological world and that it is "morally cowardly, decidedy anti-religious, and anti-American". You seem to be saying that astrologers, in order to guide, must project some form of morality onto clients, and must also provide the context for their clients. I wonder if you have much experience in counseling. There is a difference between projecting morality, professional ethics, and legalities. "

Can't he take the hint, just GO AWAY, we do not like you here. Scooot, you cannot make a case no matter how hard or long you try to change our minds, you sound like and ass, not smart at all, just annoying, NOW GO. You are a leech on the WWW, go suck out the air somewhere else. Tell your boss to give you another assignment, you are terrible at this one.

Carol, Happy to hear about your education.bjt

I like this article unfortunately it could have a number of continents or nations instead of Europe written as the header
Europe's despot dilemma
Continent of guilt, and cynicism
...That sounds cynical enough. But most European governments do not even have the courage of their lack of convictions. Five minutes after conceding that a dictator is wicked but must be engaged anyway, diplomats will point to “promising” signals on human rights that can be linked to any EU talks. For example, most observers assume that energy and strategic interests lie behind a German-led push to suspend EU sanctions on Uzbekistan, but pro-engagement diplomats feel the need to say that they detect signs of better behaviour. This can be surreal. In one discussion about Uzbek repression of journalists, a German claimed that this was mostly just “self-censorship”. (Perhaps he was thinking of Gulbahor Turaeva, a doctor sentenced to six years for crimes including “defamation” after providing independent reports from Andijan. A mother of four, she was released in June only after she “confessed” to acting criminally, and denounced dissident colleagues and foreign journalists.)...
.
...A bit of European humility and self-knowledge may be welcome. But not if it becomes an excuse for inaction. ...

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9947094

Petroleum makes whores out of nations who don't have enough reserves of their own. And it, and other energy resources are rapidly dwindling. So with more whores than johns, there will be fights over territory and access. And the number of providers and what is being provided is shrinking.

Which is why Gore gets the Nobel Peace Prize. His advocacy of measures to save the globe from global warming my definition includes methods that will generate electricity that does not involve digging up and burning mountains of coal and peat and petroleum. Think solar, think wind, think wave power. Think conservation and growing plants to counteract both hunger and CO emissions. (Pluto in Aquarius, anyone?) Every nation has sunlight and wind. Many have waves. Plenty could go to switchgrass for liquid fuel and provide enough for gaspowered cars, at least until they are all electric-powered. With each nation able to generate their own power, fights over these resources will not occur. The Middle East can finally be free to find its own destiny without meddling powers.

I woke up this morning wanting to say that we are being inundated with too much Michael, too much "debating". I see that others are picking up on that also.
Michael- go back home and offer your services to the Republicans you admire.
In fact reading in more detail I agree that we are under attack from the same consciousness that thinks making refugees of literally million of Itaqis is somehow something to do with peace.

Thanks for the good wishes, Betsy. Online learning is the mode I probably needed, but couldn't get (Uranus in the Ninth) for a long time. I work alone but in communication with others. I can work at any time of the day or night on papers, do research, et cetera. My professor is as far away as my e-mail. Don't have to commute at night, don't have to leave town or quit my current job.

Birthday begging: Please go to my site and donate. I could use some funds for school supplies (printer ink, toner, et cetera). Books are free, but not that much else.....

Sally- I wanted to say how much I love this site. I know that this is a lot of work and expence. We have a wonderful thing going here thanks to you and the talented contributers
I do wonder why the meanies are all over us right now. Something to do with that consciousness being shown for what it is-

Begone, Michael! He brings up a memory.When I was in my real life weekly Astrology group, we had one frequent visitor who always would act just like that. He didn't believe in astrology ,but would constantly keep asking Bill things about his chart, and would get in fights over trivia. This kept up for years until Bill got ill, and I started working nights. I met him a while back, and he actually missed the group!

I wonder if stuff like this is why so many astro groups have gone online? I haven't even tried to see if there is a local meetup. Alt. astrology has been overrun with this type and is practically unusable (Plus, a lot of good folk now have sites with a lot more that can be done on them).

Carol, you are really soaring on this birthday of yours. I strongly sense you are taking off in a wonderful, creative direction and it is so grand to learn of this. Happy Birthday! Seems it's a very liberating one.

Went to one of the disinfo links and i think this fits:

3) Coincidental. They tend to surface suddenly and somewhat coincidentally with a new controversial topic with no clear prior record of participation in general discussions in the particular public arena involved. They likewise tend to vanish once the topic is no longer of general concern. They were likely directed or elected to be there for a reason, and vanish with the reason.

Real newbies like to, I've noticed, discuss general astrology first, something about themselves, or just comment on a couple of things before getting into controversies. I noticed the overload of jargon too. One trait of long-time astrologers is the ability to "translate" so to speak astro-speak into regular language like breathing. I talked about my Natal Uranus in the Ninth, and can make references to what's going on in life itself. Also, many real folks will like to talk about just what it is that led them here and to astrology (there aren't that many folks raised up to be one)

When the neocons are in trouble, the information collection, debating, and the harassment sets in. I think the lesson is to stop answering to the bullies, which we have had the social training to do. Bullies and hecklers actually come from the right and the left. What they have in common is authoritarianism.

Pat C. thank you for that insight into just why we would all of a sudden be dealing with this disruptive energy.

And at certain times it's better to confront the bully face to face. Ignoring them gives them more power to take over. Our old fashioned socializing is what is the problem here, being too polite to the bully and that includes ignoring them as they go on and on instead of standing up to them. If people had stood up earlier to the bullies in our current admin instead of using old fashioned politeness that comes off as weak to the bullies, we might not be in the pickle we are in now. I have stood up to bullies and they become less the frightening authoriatarians and show their true colors , that of the simpering coward. A bully would not come on any board without a team of backups to cheer them on. Think about my recent fracas with 3 tagteam members who attacked me without provocation. If I did not tell them to STFU and had ignored them, they would have kept up the harrassment. So I do NOT agree with ignoring the bully. Think about it, ignoring sets up for someone else to come in and be a saviour type. This is a reflection of what we have going on politically, like hoping Al Gore will be the magical prince on a white horse to save us, I say Save Yourselves first.

Michael needs to STFU and GO.

Happy Birthday Carol and how did your tests go? This is going to be a disciplined and creative year for you, very creative. You made a comment about "how the web has made you creative" not so, the web is providing you tools to create in a new way, but your creativity is at an all time high, and I do mean all time high, this whole year finds you highly creative whether you paint, write a book, graphic art, or put these fantastic slide shows together. plus you have the patience now to put it all together. Lovely period of time. So happy birthday and enjoy.

I think our seemingly very young friend with so much anger and frustration is just that, very young. He either does not understand what he's seeing or he's afraid of what he's seeing. When I started out in astrology, I started out to disprove it and became so angry when I couldn't I threw all my books away, then curiosity got the best of me and I went back to it and I have not ever been able to disprove it. I think you have to have something inside of you (to read or grasp the astrological concepts) that understands the concepts of "the whole." Something that understands energy and understands even if vaguely that there are no absolutes and energy is ever changing. I didn't grasp when I was younger that there is an implicate and explicate order to things or that there was a macro and micro (as above so below) view, I didn't understand parellel universe's or even the concept. I was furious to think that my entire world might not be in my hands, that I couldn't make things change, all I could do was choose how to respond to events, or energies, it was very frustrating.

I kind of think this is where our little friend is right now and I think it's wonderful of Bill in your astrogroup to take the time to try to explain. I have a hard time with it, because I want to ask people like this "are you familiar with the historical patterns of say "this eclipse" as an example, are you familiar with quantum physics or even just possibilities, are you familiar with just the patterns within astrology or astronomy?" I would have been a terrible 1st grade teacher.

There are actually people in this world that might look at a flower and only see the flower, never see the "bed" of flowers or the stem or petals and will argue that a bed of flowers was even there, in spite of the fact that you know beyond a doubt that the flowers are there because you not only see them, you're standing in the middle of them. It's irritating. By the way if you took lessons from Bill Herbst, he is a very very fine astrologer, one of the unsung greats. How lucky for you.

This is a pretty good article regarding bullies, who are people so afraid to confront or see the unknown or unknowable they are angry, too fearful of expanding their own knowledge base. I have never found confronting anger with anger to do anything but escalate a situation.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2037250

Sorry, Sally, my Bill never got famous. He passed away in 1996. He helped start an astrology group in the late 1970's and was the person who did my first chart and presided over the meetings. I learned fast, and was able to be a teacher. Our group was open to all who came. We would even do people's charts for free if they came to the meeting (Outside, as individuals, we paid, but were flexible). We also did a radio show.

Sally, your comment reminds me that I used to do things that I hoped would work as teaching tools. I would do someone's chart and then take their transits and do a calendar (a calendar calendar) of their transits by hand. (There were no computers back then or printers). I tried doing astro cards and coming up with a do-it-yourself astrology teacher. None of them came to pass (though I did sell a few calendars). Looking back, what was missing was the computer technology that could make my dreams come to pass. Same thing when I took courses in commercial art back in 1976. The tools back then were took awkward to use(though I learned how to sketch and what a rapidograph was for).

Tests? Well, I'm in college of course, and I still have to hear from the doctor (I had to postpone my dr's appointment).

What frightens the *cos about Iran is not the ideology but the nukes. I'm not saying it's the right thing to put power to power but the nukes creates a power point to the bully that the victim is willing to fight back. Thus the US backs down to Iran who shows equal stregnth to the bully (US).
Disclaimer: Not into Iran, this is an example.

Also, it must be in the collective now. The Emperor has no clothes is a major theme going on many boards. Not just *, but spiritual leaders are being busted, even my own. I am reading both sides and drawing my own conclusions from a 360 degree perspective. A cult, is a cult is a cult.
There was a poster here a while back who sounded so self assured and became a hit on another blog. He developed many sycophants but showed his true colors many times, over and over, with his rude behavior by not answering direct questions asked politely, having a huge ignore list of those who showed dissent for his oh so lofty writing ( which turned my mind into swiss cheese), endorsing known opponents for his cause, endorsing a candinate who f'd over the voters and then acted non-chalant about endorsing him to begin with, hanging out with the nastiest of posters who were there to endorse him but never add to the dialogue.
This is psy-ops: bringing the people up to a fevered pitch of hope and idealism then dumping on them until they are devestated to the point of apathy and hopelessness. This is what happened in 2000 and 2004 and with our current Dems in congress. Once you've caught the patterns it's easier to see.

I remember last year, I think, when someone came on the Starlight News site and accused me of being a rightwing plant and then this person went over to DU and talked in detail about the sorrow and the pity that people like myself should be able to spread my rightwing garbage all over the place. I was stunned and as I remeber I spoke up softly and no one else did all were ignoring what seemed to me to be an assault. I even jokingly referred to being accustomed to labels such as leftwing, pinko,queer Berkeley person.
Bhakti-I often feel like I just got a sunburn from some of your postings and I am probably as afraid of anger even my own as anyone I do agree with you and I am coming out as unwilling to allow bullies to get a toehold anywhere in vicinity of my consciouness. But I was shaken by the attack and this has brought the memories out of my unconscious.

Jase,

My family suffer from various mental disorders too. My sister is full blown bi-polar, my father committed suicide when I was a girl, and a number of us suffer from depression which has been severe at times. One of my great grandmothers was institutionalized at various times in her life. We've learned to laugh about it and it actually helps, because there isn't a whole hell of lot that medicine can do about it, even now. Call it black humor. Everyone copes the best way they can. We always talk about being nuts. I choose not to be victimized by an inherited family illness nor do I care what others think.

Hey Clymela,

That was me who busted those creeps for you.
I had about enough of the BS after catching it from them (and I still believe it's all the same people with different tag names). Anyone interested to see how the creeps talk behind your backs by 'acting' all sweet and polite on AW needs to Google "Curse of Bhakti" on one of your pal's blogs and see what they really say about AW. These are NO ONE's real friends. My blunt qualities just brush up against the delusion that so many are under from their upbringings and pre-conditioned mindsets. The mind-set that is taking this country down the tubes. This is yoga, no one is there for you to please by being polite and the "oh my what are they thinking about me"? Who cares what people think who get a hit of light from the truth, it hurts when skin is shed, but that is the way to enlightenment. Sometimes it's harsh but I rather be in the light than wander around in the darkness of fake politeness and acting out the shadows I might suppress by not being truthful.

I found the blog. So pathetic and passive agressive. What kind of blog that spends its time talking about other blogs a lot? Only bad ones. The good ones generate their own material. And the tone of the place-so condescending and paternalistic-set my teeth on edge. It had that same unctuous and sanctimonious and judgemental tone as Michael's trolling. I couldn't get away from that place fast enough. Which is probably why the trolls come here-they can't stand their own people and place.

Don't ask me for the URL.

Michael,

You seem to come to this site thinking we haven’t heard your opinions before. We’ve had them shoved in our faces for the last seven years. We’ve been told we’re unpatriotic, traitors and that tax breaks for the rich is going to better our lives. No matter how many times you give us your opinion, you’re not going to change ours. So, it makes me wonder what your real reason for going on about how balanced and open-minded you are.

Please explain to me how you have any clue what it is like to be a minor teenager who’s been raped by her father or teacher or priest and be pregnant? Oh, that’s right, she must have been a tease and asked for it. What do you know about being a poor kid without healthcare? Oh, that’s right their parents must be lazy or on drugs. Did you go to public school or private? I'm thinking home schooled. I find it hard to believe any doors have been slammed in your face. If you want to be a selfish, uncaring jerk and call it well-balanced that's fine too. It's your lie, you can tell it anyway you want.

I think you have the right to believe whatever you want. If you want to believe Bush has been given a bad rap- so be it. That’s perfectly fine with me. It’s a free country. But knock off the poor me I’m only trying to give my innocent opinion bit. Growup and get some manners.

I couldn't find it.

...and Jesus wept!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/community/groups/index.html?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aa70e3396-6663-4a8d-ba19-e44939d3c44fForum%3a5543a34c-af92-4736-b81b-4aad0ab02e2eDiscussion%3a505d86e9-4c4a-4619-97bc-6b7e65c82a98

Here Pat C, here's making it too easy to ignore.
It's starts at 5:01 am and keep scrolling down to the bottom.

http://neithnet.blogspot.com/2006/09/drink-in-fall.html

I just happened to google my code name one day out of boredom and surprisingly learned alot. It was not hard to find. There's more but I choose not to go there as it's the same deluded blatherings that muddied the waters here on AW for awhile. One even brags about stirring up AW on purpose.

The ones who "act' polite are usually the problem.
Loved the Eddie Haskell analogy from anon the other day, that sticks in my brain alot with these folk. I will say that they finally got their own blogs going and that is good, how they use it them is a different story. Glad they no longer dilute the fine postings here with selfish garbage.
Are they paid trolls? I do not think so, there's alot of egomaniacs out there that use cyberspace for self-aggrandizement and to obtain sycophants to stroke their fragile egos, the anonimity makes it easy to do so.

Gotta get some fresh air now and having a real life off the net. Have a great day.

Well, well, seems QWest is not just claiming they had the screws put to them for not illegally spying on customers for Bushco, but that the effort to start all the spying began in February 2001, six months before the horrendous attack on the WTC. Since Bushco does not seem to have been very interested in intelligence reports, such as "Al-Q is determinted to strike inside the US", etc., how does Congess now let them hide behind 9/11-9/11-9/11-terra-terra-terra as an excuse AND grant all of them immunity for violating the Constitution determinedly and routinely by spying on everyone through the telecoms. Fascinating little read:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/055870.php

Fact free wingers are at it again. It's bad enough Fixed News is screeching Al Gore has debased the Nobel Peace Prize since their green envy slip is showing down to their ankles, and I swear in surfing by yesterday morning I heard them claim it's Rethugs that usually win the Peace Prize but they couldn't and didn't actually cite any. Now Pat Buchanan is saying it has "become nothing more than political power grab by 'Swedish Socialists'... spearheading a global domination conspiracy", even though the Peace Prize itself is selected and awarded by Norwegians, in Oslo Norway.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/10/13/1024/6273

Here's a Times-Records Poll you might want to go show some love to:

"Is Al Gore a deserving winner of the Nobel Peace Prize for his work on and climate-change?" [sic]

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071012/NEWS/710120338

Wingers seem to lack understanding of both the spirit of the law, and the truth.

WV, thanks for the links to Lessing. I really must make an effort to read some of her books.

Claudia, it's nice to have you visiting again.

Jimmy C is my favourite modern president. He was always first and foremost a man of peace, and because of this he was perceived as weak, but he was a man of good character, and refreshingly genuine,and sincere. I think he was also very perceptive, and not easily fooled. Unfortunately, he did not get the respect and admiration he deserved, largely because of the outcome of the Iran hostage taking crisis, which he was blamed for, but which was not the case as was later proven. It was a ploy by the Repubs to get Reagan elected. But fate moves in mysterious ways, and he was eventually redeemed when he won the Nobel Peace prize. The same thing has occured with Al Gore. Maybe the committee that presides over the awards in Norway, is more aware than the average American, of what is really going on in the world, or one can also say that Divine Justice has been served in both cases.

Yep Shy, Keith O was on that Qwest angle last night too. Emptywheel has been all over it, here's a couple of her latest:

Groundbreaker and the Secret Request
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2007/10/groundbreaker-a.html

What Nacchio Tells Us about the NSA
(includes one of her thorough timelines)
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2007/10/what-nacchio-te.html

Carol, fantastical cheerful birthday to you! Veerry interesting SR (don't know your time or year but aspects are both juicy and pointed).
The conjunction of venus/south node/saturn remind me of Zen, time standing still, of breath and clear perfection of a still clear pond. Nice one-pointed focus for a beginning with very excellent steady expansion far into the future. That's classy! What is the focus of your courses, Carol?

QOP, were you going to direct me to where I can see your calendars?

Noticed the tone here is interrupted and made divisive beginning with the odd Moveon/dem comparison. Wow, how pointless!...that was my first thought, best thought. Party comparisons?
Dems were once the bad guys and continued tormenting the freed slaves and land which was given to them! Repugs were the good guys at the time. Now the repugs are psychotic sexual deviant certifiables. How I miss the lovely Tip O'Neill and Jimmy Carter, when we could sleep at night, remember?
Michael, for a nice informative read, try "The Madness of George w. Bush; A Reflection of Our Collective Psychosis" by Paul Levy.
The points you make seem irrelevant to just about everyone on Cap'n Sally's site. In addition, you do take up alot of bandwidth: fluff without pith.
Rather boorish and not of interest to us here.
Instead of troll, I have coined the term, "Zombie" because of an indifference, deadness and relentlessness, that is parasitic rather than life-enhancing. Doesn't respond to direct feedback or interchange in a genuine way.
Interesting these Zombies "Invade" and care little for strenghtening themselves among those who wish to hear them and share with them. Quite an odd approach to life typical of projected neurosis. Note none of us here care a whit to mix among such malignance. Ugh.

Thanks, Shez SpiritEye, and I did motor right over to thenexthurrah.com and emptywheel has posted a new piece of this mess. emptywheel (Marcy Wheeler) is an incredibly analytic observer and will dig as deeply as she can to get answers. I fancy she's the reincartion of I.F. Stone.

Patb, I'm 51 today. I think Sally has my time and place. All over the place today trying to get things going. Got several birthday wishes by phone, talked to Mom this morning-had a nice long chat. Feel like doing a lot of things on this computer, but I need to feed my cat and clean and eat something as well!

When I got the feeling that Gore would enter the race in early December, did anyone else get vibes on that, or is that just wishful thinking on my part?

I think the disrupters planned this disruption, but from what I have been reading all over the net, people just aren't buying it anymore and are refuting the talking points! Everybody who is of a certain age can compare the old weather with the new! October 13th used to be already nippy! Last week it was 90 on Monday, and 40 this morning, and I haven't noticed the trees changing too much color yet either! And the clincher was last dry January when we had temps in the 60's around New Years, and winter didn't even come in until early February, when the temps were around zero for two weeks with record lows!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/13/MNKCSP69G.DTL&tsp=1

Al Gore looks ahead from Nobel heights: statesmanship or politics?

Reveling in world acclamation and a shared Nobel Peace Prize for global warming activism, former Vice President Al Gore stands at a crossroads: continue at the top of his game as a preeminent statesman on an environmental crisis or return to a territory rife with pain and potential as a Democratic presidential candidate.
Gore, speaking to reporters Friday in the packed headquarters of the Alliance for Climate Protection in Palo Alto, refused to reveal any clues about whether he is listening to renewed calls to consider a 2008 White House run after winning the award.
"I will be doing everything I can to try and understand how I can best use" the honor of the Nobel to highlight a "planetary emergency," Gore said.
Those who know and admire the former vice president said Gore already has shown a knack for dramatically affecting politics from outside the circle of campaigning for office.

snip

"Only he knows what is right for him and his family to protect all the work he has done on global warming and politics," Guggenheim said. "Either way, he is going to continue to be an agent for good and for progress on global warming."

Carol!

http://www.ilovewavs.com/Holidays/Party/Conga%20-%20Gloria%20Estefan.wav

Happy Birthday!!

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/101307.html

Smearing Al Gore: Here We Go Again

When people wonder how the United States ended up in today’s nightmarish predicament, a big part of the answer is that the right-wing message machine and the mainstream U.S. news media distorted reality at key moments about key people, perhaps most notably Al Gore during Campaign 2000.

Pat C, thank you! You had me dancing at the computer....Bravo!

Oh how remiss of me, the one thing I had on my mind to say today is:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY CAROL!!!

And may I add how much I enjoy your comments, what a beautiful soul you are. We're the same age now, congrats and enjoy you Goddess you.

Move on folks this is becoming tedious.

Shez SpiritEye, I mosey'd over there myself. 83% yes, how sweet it is.

Recently you mentioned above that this is your NA name (you see through things/stuff/people), mine is: Ahe 'he e curlgo' de castr
Mountain cat moving among the trees (Translation from Apache)

Pat QOP 2008 calendars yes ? Where ?

Two weeks to Halloween, it's very fall'ish here, and we've finally had some rain, poor redwoods were thirsty!

Mercury Rx in Scorpio and Mars in Cancer in a trine moving to exact, Mars isn't happy in water (in its fall) and is roiling and boiling away. Mercury Rx. in Scorpio brings thoughts of cunning, slyness, secretive, nasty nasty energy about. Sharp tongued, vicious... With a sextile of the Saturn/Venus conjoining in Virgo might be greed muddies the waters, or muddied waters cause plans to be mired. Throw in the Sun trine Neptune today and we've seen the best of BS flying everywhere. I'm looking at America and wondering if we've all gone collectively insane. You look at all the pieces, and go wow we are so (*&U(*(&*&) !!

And the sun will rise tomorrow.

Apple.com

http://www.apple.com/

Linky....

Glad you enjoyed it Carol! :-D It's good to have some happiness and celebration, especially now. Enjoy the day!

Morgana, yes, these are not times I would have hoped to have seen in my lifetime.

Happy birthday Carol! I'm 59 now and I've thoroughly enjoyed my 50s and looking forward to the 60s!

"My family suffer from various mental disorders too. My sister is full blown bi-polar, my father committed suicide when I was a girl, and a number of us suffer from depression which has been severe at times. One of my great grandmothers was institutionalized at various times in her life. We've learned to laugh about it and it actually helps, because there isn't a whole hell of lot that medicine can do about it, even now. Call it black humor. Everyone copes the best way they can. We always talk about being nuts. I choose not to be victimized by an inherited family illness nor do I care what others think."

So that makes it o.k.? It's not a question of victimisation. It is, however, a question of sensitivity. Maybe it's time that you did care what others think.

I joke about most things, probably more than I should, but I no longer joke about the things have so much pain, cancer for example, especially in a public forum. A line has to be drawn somewhere.

I'd never heard of Mumin Bey or his crew until he showed up, uninvited, in my email a year or so ago. To make a long story short, he, like Michael and other Muminites who show up on this blog and others, are self-appointed astro-Jihadists who believe they have a mission to preach a backward, bigoted "truth" to we who are "unenlightened."

I was even set up by a Muminite who tried to pass herself off as a woman who'd had an abortion and desperately wanted an astrology reading from me. I declined (this all took place by email) and advised that she connect with a physician and therapist in her local area. This occurred right after I'd done an article on Starcats.com about Roe v. Wade.

It is obvious that I support a woman's right to choose, but this should not be confused with the Right Wing bait and switch game of "that means you're pro-abortion." Jesus Christ, having the right to choose also means having the right NOT to choose to have an abortion. The idea of choice voids the stupidity of the childish argument.

These types act as though a woman who has to choose to terminate a pregnancy is some kind of harpie that best be punished by rituals straight from the Malleus Malificarum (Morgana, ya' dig?) I mean, is the corn being blighted again by us bitches who believe in Age of Enlightnment reasoning?

The woman did not give up. She began pestering me for a reading and I'd pretty much identified her as a Muminite. What gave me chills:

She wanted my phone number and ADDRESS so she could "mail me a check" for a reading. This is after I'd already declined to read for her.

That scared me because it crossed another line. Why did she persist in getting my personal information when I'd already made it clear I would not read for her? Was this so that "someone" would have access to my house in order to harass or even harm me? That's when I contacted my attorney.

This is what I advise everyone on AW to do when you see Michael, or a Muminite or any other self-styled troll appear on this or any other blog.

DO NOT FOR ANY REASON RESPOND TO THEM. IGNORE HIM AND ALL LIKE HIM. [not screaming]. When he or others like him cease to attention in the community, they -- like THE BORG -- will move on to suck out some other universe.

It would be good to report any such harassers to AFAN's legal arm. Astrodatabank's complaints against Mumin Bey and others of his ilk are on file with AFAN and other such astrological organizations. We really don't need to suffer these asses.

It better not start up in my email again either or there will be hell to pay. I actually do have legal remedies available to me, per advice given me by my attorney (and a friend at AFAN) the last time the Pox People invaded my email account.

Claudia

Claudia,

Funny you should mention the Hammer of the Witches I was looking it up earlier today.

"Malleus Maleficarum: The Hammer of Witches James Sprenger and Henry Kramer, 1486, translated by Montague Summers.

My email blocker works pretty good and I don't hesitate to use it. I've had some real weirdo's send some pretty threatening stuff over the last few years, I just send it to the FBI and a PI.

And I so love having you share your insights on our lively blog here. Thanks!!!!!

Oh, Claudia, your post resonated with me--the crazy deception stuff, etc. is so like what I encountered when I was investigating the violent anti-choice movement in the '90s. Was going to write up some examples--but they were 'way too long and bizarre.

Thanks Claudia, your good sound advise from experience resonates with me.

Happy Brithday Carol!

Morgana,
I tried to send an attachment from the calendar, & it isn't going through! They arbitrarily gave me a new hotmail called windows
live. I don't like it much, it is microsoft, I am very much not!
Or your e-mail has changed in several years?
or your blocker is working.?
Pat b did you get one? This is the first time I have tried to send attachments since they changed it,, I hope I can still send pix!
QOP

Claudia, Your post explains everything. Thank you for sharing your experience and advice.

Hi PatQOP,
I haven't seen it, and I have checked the bit buckets and didn't see any attachment emails, lots of help for limp men tho!

Carol, you could be right about your intuition with Gore, particularly with the mars retrograde that begins 11-15-07 through 1-30-08 when it goes direct on his progressed midheaven just 1-degree past his P uranus in the 11th house (sudden announcement?), plus as jupiter conjuncts his cap moon in dec. he may be feeling rather expansive.
His and Tipper's charts both light up with the 2-08 aq/leo eclipses, particularly with the formation of that fantastic alignment in aquarius at full bloom in '09 with the whole world smilin' on those two!
I worry a bit for his safety, and it's a good idea to keep an eye on the mars/pluto creeping up at the end of '08 before the swearing-in of 1-20-09. This disturbing alignment advances to his moon at 3cap.
That could be a lot of powerful emotional expression for him as instrumental (his mars ruler, pluto near ascendant)in re-forming the government. At the same time we can expect maneuvers from the "other side" to lock down his access to doing so. They are one jealous bunch, huh. Then again, this could be total projection of our hopes! Either way, I would worry about a plan for his assassination with the void moon and 8th house activity in the 1-20-09 new president's chart. For his sake I hope he chooses to not take such a chance.

Wow, patb. I came here to post this, and saw your post. There is no intent to connect this article from Mother Jones to those planets.

Why is it that human technological capabilities always seem to precede his sensibilities?

http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2007/10/blackwater-quits-IPOA.html

Peace Out: Blackwater Splits with Trade Group that Promotes the 'Peace and Stability' Industry

Mired in controversy after its operators killed 17 Iraqi civilians, Blackwater quietly dissociated itself with the International Peace Operations Association, an organization that reps for the private military industry's biggest players.

PatQOP, email got through alright, but I have to wait for me darlin' Will to get home to see if he can impose his brilliance, because the pix won't download as it is. Not giving up! Thanks for sending them!

Another thot, let's not forget Gore won the election during that even year 2000. Bush did not win. So, in keeping with that little Tecehumseh (sp?) curse with the "fraudulent imposter", could we say that chief T's curse is literal? Maybe not apply to the one who could use a little taking out the most?
Then again, where's our humor. Too many boogymen as it is.

Jase, olympic ignorance. I'm in awe of it's magnitude.

Really excellent timeline from Mother Jones.

http://www.motherjones.com/bush_war_timeline/

Mine came through, too, PatB. I can't open the attachment either, but having purchased last year's calendar, I guarantee you QOP does some glorious work. Lovely stuff.

Oh right! It's mercury retro, no wonder such a struggle with sending attachments!.......................I may have to go through some adjustments! Give me a couple fof days!

I really don't want to see Gore run! It's a gut level NO!
We need to do some housecleaning first!

Arianna Huffington: What Would You Like Me to Ask Nancy Pelosi?
On Monday, I'm going to be videotaping an exclusive HuffPost interview with Nancy Pelosi. And I'd love your input on what questions I should ask. Read More......
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/
QOP

Hi to Lunaoscura, bhakti and morgana, thank you :)

Claudia

Woot! Woot! QOP and all others interested in what they've done and are doing to our food and what we can do about it, I urge you to not miss this:
http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/10/13/the-farm-bill-comes-due/

Chat with John Dean on Sunday 10/14. The link also lists Dean's great articles.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/

What I meant is the big difference between the ignorance of hatred as it relates to mental illness in those who govern and those who support them.
Strange beyond words to equate that with genuine mental suffering which is intelligent and aware.
Just no comparison.

I have been "lurking" this blog for almost 5 years now, and despite a lot of the oversimplified inanery that tends to get posted here, I have continued to read for the few gems of insight that can be gotten.

I'm not sure if some of Michael's posts are being deleted and hence I'm unable to see the context of what is being discussed, but frankly the lot of you are being cantankerous nutcases in response to what are to me quite reasonable assertions and observations on his part. I am also of the Pluto in Libra generation, and it's exactly this kind of egomaniacal, me-generation cult leader bullshit that typifies the Pluto in Leo crowd that seriously turns me off to "spiritual astrology" or whatever. If you don't like a serious, respectful and intelligent attempt at providing a different opinion on astrological insights, all of a sudden he's some agent provacateur sent in by Fox News to divide and conquer your genius creativity? Give me a freakin break.

My dad does this, albeit in a different context. He seems to have taken the neoconservative schpiel hook, line and sinker even though I know quite well there's a rational self lurking somewhere in his Sun in Gemini whilst clouded by his rising Pisces. It's like he really knows he's being fed a pack of lies, but his dutiful Mercury in Cancer just doesn't want to admit it. In a similar vein, when someone "dares" to use an alternative viewpoint on astrology (heaven knows it needs a serious overhaul to be brought into the freakin ___20th century___ much less our current one), suddenly he's a frothing GOP shill?

My god. I've seen some kooky stuff on here before, but when a member of my generation makes a sincere effort at expressing his opinion and wondering what others think about it and gets relegated to being accused of being a Republithug troll (to which I would take great offense), it makes me wonder if those who claim to be on the side of the good and wholesome are really too foolish to be on the side of evil and more realistically are on that of the ugly.

Sincerely,

Gilgamesh, Sun in Sag, Moon in Sco, Jup in Aqu conj Asc in Aqu and tireless pursuer of the Truth.

P.S. Congratulations to Al Gore for finally getting rewarded for his efforts to educate the world about climate change!!! Now that's one brave Aries!

The Sabian Symbol for this Retrograde Mercury is:A Fellowship Supper Reunites Old Comrades

10-11 deg Scorpio.

Interesting that a lot of people are just now coming back to this board or coming out of it just now. We are dining out on collective knowledge and collective energy. And Al's the catalyst for this reunion. I bet we have more mass knowledge than a lot of the online schools combined. Anybody interested in a joint project?

What do you have in mind Carol? And I think you might want to take a look at 9 Scorpio Sabian, Mercury went retro at 9 degrees 5 min that's even better.

My Moon and Mercury are conjunct at 11' Scorpio! :)

Depending on the minutes of your Moon and Mercury, you would want to read the Sabian Symbol for 11 and 12 degrees Scorpio. The retrograde didn't actually conjoin your Moon and Mercury so you would have escaped what could have been the worst of the retrograde. When a transiting planet comes right up to a natal planet but doesn't quite make it by degree and minute before going retrograde you don't have the best or the worst of the transiting planet's promise, not until it cross'over the exact degree and minute.

I don't know if your Sun and Jupiter actually sextiles by degree but if they do, you might want to keep an eye on transiting Mars in Cancer when it inconjuncts both your Sun and Jupiter, a slight turn in destiny would be indicated, particularly if Pluto in involved in those sextiles (if they exist, they would have to be by degree and within one half a degree of arc on either side)

Musing...separate instructional blog? Online broadcast? Getting an account somewhere to upload stuff? Who knows?
Perhaps having a week with members submitting articles for publication?

Whatever....

Scorpio 9

Sabian Symbol: A dentist is hard at work. Man-made porcelain replaces nature's enamel which consciousness has been unable to hold.

Kozminsky Symbol: An ancient Hellenistic warship lying on the seashore.

Gilgamesh, glad you spoke up. Personally don't want to defend anything, and willing to look at overreacting as a possibility. One could say those posts sure had the wafting scent of being baited and not particularly in the genuine spirit of inquiry about the 'art' of astrology.
Hey, we live in touchy times. We overshoot, we apologize.
Can see the jagged edges here and wonder about it myself. Then I wonder about myself. Dicey row of posts, certainly peculiar eruptions, that's quite clear.
Agree wholeheartedly about the need to burn the cookbooks and view charts openly and wholistically without nailing people and situations to a rigid cross of dogma. In fact, I'd like to list all of the deadening, downright erroneous interpretations of planetary arrangements which I've found time and time again don't mean jack in the real world of people and events. Especially the ride 'em cowboy mean ones.
I've heard a reputable astrologer actually say
my experience was wrong and couldn't question the interpretation. I try to stay on that edge of having some humor about it and the "oh, really" factor.
So astrologers can be just as convinced of solid erroneous and delusional views that just keep reinforcing something destructive within themselves as the worst republican, and just as unevolved.
So thanks for raising that point. It's indespensible.

Scorpio 11

Sabian Symbol: There is great excitement on the narrow and treacherous beach. Finally a drowning man rescued drowning man is saved and brought ashore.

Kozminsky Symbol: Pretty little flowers growing on an old moss covered wall in an old green country lane.

Scorpio 12

Sabian Symbol: A brilliant assembly of dignitaries is seen on a highly polished dance floor. It is an important embassy ball.

Kozminsky Symbol: A galvanic battery resting on a rust iron stand.

9 Scorpio (Goldsmith version)

"A dentist shows a patient an Xray of his caities before drilling and filling his teeth".

Insistently pointing out a personal or social problem that needs immediate attention, before it gets out of hand: timely diagnosis vs. frenetic stopgap remedies; accurate and detailed observation vs. reading too much or too little into a situation (may fixate on issues that are not of particular personal importance, need to develop mental discipline to avoid paranoid vortexes of thought); making people deal with issues they'd as soon ignore, protecting the body-politic from malign influences; exposing and rooting out political, social, or moral corruption. Puritanical vs. prurient libertinism; hitting a nerve; pushing people's buttons in order to see if one's intuitions are correct (rude); lasing out emotionally vs. clinically examining a problem's deepest roots.

Ha! Ha! Ha!

Gilgamesh, please. Speak for yourself and save the sanctimony. I'm also a Pluto in Libra. If it's balance you want, then fine. But there's certainly a more productive and genuine way of going about seeking it.

Too often in these Pluto in Sagittarius times, "open inquiry" has simply been thinly-veiled pretext for the inquirer wanting to force his or her dogma down everyone else's throats. Pluto enters Capricorn next year. Haven't we all had enough of this nonsense already?

I run across an awful lot of "old souls" with the Pluto in Libra generation Neo, I also run into the very youthful and distorted idea of what "fair and balance" means (Fox News would be one specific example and the media in general) Libra for all the accusations of it being an energy that "dithers," has a fine sense of wisdom. I find that the majority of my Libra friends exhibit this kind of wisdom in looking at all sides and by doing that come to the perfect answer to most questions put to them. Maybe I just want to think "wisdom" because I have a Libra Asc. but I do think the Pluto in Libra generation has a great deal of wisdom regarding relationships and most importantly "inter-relating."

Thanks for the comments Gilgamesh and Xyz.

You know, with my Libra stellium and Moon-Venus in Leo, I like to think of myself as an easygoing, fairminded person. I try to give everyone the benefit of doubt, and to try to see the best in all people.

I'm almost speechless at the posts over the past 24 hours. Wow.

So let me simply change the subject. Congrats to Vice President Al Gore on his winning the Nobel Peace Prize. This has been a great year for him.

Hi Patb.

I'm not sure where you are coming from. Are you saying that it is ok to joke about mental illness? Maybe it's me, but I just don't find it very funny. Is there some kind of cultural divide on this? Here in the U.K. there have been a number of recent ad campaigns to make people aware of mental illness and try and get people to change their attitudes to a serious problem. It hurts me when people 'joke' about it. Am I the freak that I sometimes feel that I am in my more paranoid moments? Not everyone is big and tough when dealing with these issues, especially me. I don't expect to find that kind of attitude here. I thought progressives were supposed to be more sensitive and at least try to understand the other person's viewpoint. That's what makes them progressives, right? If I was on a site frequented by a bunch of reactionaries, I'd know what to expect but not here.

It really takes a lot to get me upset and I am not easily offended but this really does it.

The phrase 'I don't care what anyone thinks' is used far too often these days and given far too much applause. We should care about our fellow human beings and how our words can cut and wound and hurt but also how they can give strength and hope and support. What is the wisest choice? I know what I will be doing.

This is reader reaction to the last post, Mumin's piece on spousal abuse, it comes from a group called Politically Incorrect Astrology:

"Mu, I really enjoy your in-depth analyses and original choices of
topics. It took me all day to finally arrange for some quiet time to
be able to savor this latest offering of yours without distraction. Nicely done."
- LM

"Your essay is very interesting - paricularly the astrolgy.

A favorite reference book of mine is T. Pat Davis' book "Sexual
Assaults: Pre-Identifying Those Vulnerable" because her astrological
checklists hold up for any gender and any kind of assault including
domestic violence for both genders. The subject came up so many
times in readings that I finally quit doing readings."
- JS

So, as you can see, there are at least as many people who are in favor of the man as there are against. Just wanted to try to present some balance, as I try to do in all things.

Hey Michael, that Loooooooong article is what is known as SPAM when copied and pasted on someone else's band width. I don't appreciate being subjected to it. If I want to read Mu, I'll go to that site. That's not what I clicked on. I clicked on Astroworld, and Astroworld is not in any way associated with Mu, so that long long article that you posted here makes you a SPAMMER.

Remember the uninvited fairy in Sleeping Beauty. That would be you.

http://www.ilovewavs.com/comedy/AnsMach/AnsMach%20-%20Greetings,%20you%20have%20reached%20the%206th%20sense%20detective%20agency%20.wav

My apologies to Sally and all AWrs. I neglected to sign my post above. Pat C

((((((Carol))))))
I helped you celebrate yesterday. :) And feeling it this morning. I know it had to be a good one.

Un-named, I know what spam is, and I respectfully disagree. I won't stand byand let someone who cannot speak for themself be so blatantly misrepresented. That is why I post the article in its entirety, because I wanted everyone to get the *whole* context, not only disjointed bits and pieces of comments that don't give a whole picture.

Yes, this is Astroworld, and it seems that if you don't vilify anyone who thinks for themselves, there is no world in it. "Rethuglicans", please. Is Sandra Day O'Connor a "Rethuglican"?

I've stayed on topic and asked legitimate questions. I still have not had anyone answer, how does one see "environmentalist" in the chart, you included. Instead of character-assassinating people, you might try real hard and focus on the astrology. At least that's what Mumin, for all his bluster, does.

Exactly, Pat. More, i have a difficult time understanding something. Tell me what i'm missing, but. . .

There is no fair and balance in murder. There is no fair and balance in rape. There is no fair and balance in ejecting millions from their homes to claim land and resources. There is no fair and balance in the screams of a child starved by those who are rigidly fixed to principles of power for its own sake. There is no fair and balance in any act that accepts carnage as a necessary evil.

i am not fair, nor am i balanced. i refuse to take part in, be a spokesperson for any person, thing or act that glorifies war, violence, apartheid, prejudice, secularism. Period.

Guess this explains why those boring paintings of 3 apples in a row evenly spaced & balenced sell. This has been a popular trend through the 90's.
Interestingly..................I spent a year in art college, 11 years ago
A nontraditional student ( I'm a Pluto In Cancer, NOT LEO! born the same year as Gone WIth the WInd & The Wizard of Oz! tos eternal classics! )
WITH A BUNCH OF PLUTO IN LIBRA; GENXERS.
IT WAS DURING the lead up to MY 2ND SATURN RETURN!
I found them to be more biased than "fair & balanced" in their attitude. They all had a dreadful opinion of the 70's and Carter........ and were uncomplimentary to hostile towards the Pluto in Leo Gen.!
Admittedly there were some awful designs/ art pieces produced, during the 70's ; BUT at least there was freedom of expression. In the 90's we were all herded into one tight, cramped too small BOX! ( Saturn in early Aries, sq. Mars in early Libra.!)
However within that tiny box, Even Balance was an absolute No No. The Professors were both detail oriented Pluto in Virgos. I learnd more about the Generation Gap than about Graphic Design that year.
Michael, both my daughter and son-in-law lean VERY LEFT; just express different styles of showing it!
Left /Right isn't a given within a generational period!
QOP

I made a few mistakes in my comments above. First they are addressed to Pat C, since she said she is the one who asserts that I've commited the sin of "spamming" someone, which is nonsense. Second, my post was in direct response to charges made by "Un-named" to discredit a source by deliberately misrepresenting what was said on the ADB website. Third, I mean to say that it seems that if you don't vilify anything and everything that doesn't think like certain parties on Astroworld, you're dismissed or worse, called all kinds of names like "Rethuglican" and so on, even when you go out of your way to state that you don't pleade loyalty to any political party.

Now Pat C, I would still very much like to learn how to see "environmentalist" in a chart. Perhaps you have something useful to share? Thanks.

It was, Karen. Didn't go anywhere, but got a lot of "Happy Birthdays" on the phone. Spent part of the night fooling around again on the computer. I'm working on another Powerpoint, this time Astrology-based. If anyone who's offering me a job asks me if I know Powerpoint-I could say "I taught myself!". Not to mention that I am finding a lot of sites that will host your Presentations either for free or a nice fee. It's as if my computer has become a big toy.

I'm in no mood for hearing about male whining about women charging them with domestic violence. I've seen my share of nasty domestic situations to know that the scales definitely are not evened out here. It's a downer, and a distraction.

BTW,
I skipped over that long article. A quick skim & I wasn't interested in the content! Could care less what motivated the preachers wife to murder, isn't that what you get in lengthy boring detail on places like FoxNews?
Aysemetric QOP

QOP, thanks for sharing your experience in art school. I very much love the arts, but I guess all my planets in Libra wasn't enough LOL.

I just cannot stand unfairness, it really bothers me, and I guess that's why I went into law. So Marta, take a bow. I don't like to discuss too much of that on my downtime, though. Just wanted to toss that in.

I think there's a fair amount of blame to go around, and for me I'm more interested in finding solutions that move us all forward. I just don't see the point in paiting oneself into an ideological corner. You have to be reasoned and sensible and willing to meet others halfway, at least that's what has usually worked for me.

I really wish there were more astrology focus here, and less partisan cheerleading. Maybe that can lead us all to getting at that truth that Sally talks about. I truly hope so.

do NOT feed the troll. read claudia's post above.

QOP, Carol, if I may, my reason for posting the spousal abuse piece was to show that Mumin has both his fair share of supporters and detractors, unlike Un-named who did a hatchet job on the man only to push a point. Sound familiar? Smells like ideology to me.

As for the subject matter, that wasn't handpicked by me, I merely posted up the latest piece of his, which I happened to see early this morning. But I do find his subjects to be very original, even if I don't agree with all of them or his take on it.

The Duke case was a big deal in the circles I move in on the day job; as usual, there were people on one side, and others on the other side, fighting and clawing for their position. It was as if the facts be damned, and made me really sad to be part of the profession that produces the Nifongs of the world. No matter what anyone may think of him, I think Mumin deserves at least some credit for bringing such a hot topic to our astrology awareness.

Jase, no it is uncool to joke about mental suffering. Sorry you missed the clarification I posted about the differences. There must have been a misunderstanding there between you and Luna.

Un-named, you can't be serious. Claudia is a very good astrologer, but trust me when I tell you that she would get laughed out of a court room with the kinds of "evidence" she has against "Muminites" LOL. Any lawyer that takes such a thing seriously I would run from.

As for the constant "troll" comments, please stop. And while you're at it, maybe you can direct me to some astrology writing you've done? Thanks.

BIG BANKS MEET WITH U.S. TREASURY DEPARTMENT TO DISCUSS DEPRESSION PREVENTION

http://www.forbes.com/business/2007/10/13/banks-siv-treasury-biz-wallst-cx_pm_1013citicorp.html

The actual language is that the meeting was held to "stave off the danger that there could be a fire sale of shaky mortgage-backed securities, collateralized debt obligations and other distressed assets following the recent global credit crunch" but this is another way of saying that the centralized financial systems that run the world are shuffling to avoid the Second Great Depression.

EXCELLENT: NAOMI KLEIN WITH BILL MAHER: "AMERICA US SUCCUMBING TO FASCISM"

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Naomi_Klein_explains_how_we_willingly_1013.htm

Michael, you know full well providing a link is just well, manners. We see your aggressive desire to disrupt. So so dishonest.

Sally, we trust your choices. Hope you're closer to banning this individual given the obviousness of what's happening.

Wow, just wow.

Sally, duly noted. I use the Magi Society's 3 degree orb, so the Sun/Jupiter sextile is too wide to count for me, even with Jupiter right under the Asc. This assumes my time of birth is 100% accurate and that the time of birth is when I popped out of the womb. It's always of great concern to me when Mars swings into this part of the zodiac, though, because it transits my natal Saturn/Pluto square, which I've been told by one astrologer is my "shadow", and sure enough, after reviewing past transits of this position (oh, natal Saturn in Cancer conjunct South Node :( ), let's just say I try to exercise a lot and think positively. Maybe this is affecting Michael also? From what I understand, Mars is going to make an unusually long stay in this area, something Susan Miller went on at great length about this month (How does she do that with just a Sun-on-the-ascendant chart??) I will still be watching the Sun/Jupiter, though!

How this links to the Sabian Symbols I'm not exactly sure yet, but for certain there are strange things afoot. I popped in here semi-randomly after reading a CNN article about Condi Rice sassing the Russian government for being more centralized and less democratic after Putin's term. ( http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/10/13/rice.russia.ap/index.html ) The irony was just too much and I figured you all had some poignant insights on this as is often the case. Oh, and this blog is an awesome source for article links on politically-related subjects.

Michael, that post will take me a good week to fully digest but it touched off so many "omg yah, omg me 2, omg guess what" type of responses in my head! I've only had a small taste of vedic astrology, having met one in Canada and paid for a consultation for one up in the Blue Ridge mountains. The one in Canada was Indian (from India) and I swear I thought I saw his third-eye peering directly into my soul. The one in the Blue Ridge was full of it, he was sitting in for his wife who was probably good at it.

To address this concept of violence from women against men, whether it be physical or mental abuse, I am just going to say that my first reading of my Moon in Scorpio position is what raised my eyebrows when I first started studying astrology 15 years ago (albeit the tropical Western kind from the Ptolemaic tradition most here in the USA are familiar with), and although violence of any kind towards any human is terrible and unevolved, the unintended consequences of an overreaction to "patriarchal" social hierarchies has put a lot of men in a weird position where they are just.. too scared and confused to even deal with women in any more than a functional capacity, for fear of being branded chauvinists or boorish pigs. I think this impasse is ruining things. Men will be men and the differences are there for a reason and should be celebrated rather than repressing one in favor of another.

ANYWAY, I also have to extend the usual apologies for being a tactless Sag, but I stand by what I said in my previous post. Astrology needs a major overhaul, in my opinion, and embracing other viewpoints is of paramount importance.

Politically, I'd say we all need some serious healing after this fight against the neocons and the Grand Old Paedos is won, which it still is not. Hope you guys are attending anti-war rallys like I am!

Namaste,

Gilgamesh

Michael, we prefer that people highlight a paragraph from an article and post a link and then discuss. We run into copywrite infringements not to mention bandwidth issues when the entire article is printed in total. Both of the issues with copywrites and bandwidth are a problem and if a specific post is too long, we delete it in order to give maximum space for responses.

Over here in China, I have recently returned from a visit to Hong Kong. I enjoyed it very much. I learned that I would not like to live in a skyscraper type building. It was fun for a few days stareing into offices across the street and watching people work at night.
I really wanted to do some shopping and sightseeing but I kept walking by restaurants and going inside to try a new food and eating my way around the island. The city is clean and orderly and very attractive. The arts are really big in HK. It is very quiet for such a large place with so many people. Everyone speaks and reads English. Unfortunately Fox is on the English television channel list along with some very dull red neck sitcom channels and Bloomberg.
I am really pleased about Al Gore. I have been showing, "An Inconveninet Truth," to everyone in China. Young people really love it. The English is very clear and easy to understand. I highly recommend it to ESL teachers.bjt

Quick one - I do agree with Sally about the copyright and bandwidth issues as they are very real concerns. That having been said, I wouldn't have read it otherwise by following the link. I don't know what else to say about that except keep the discussion going :)))

Astrology as always has been way ahead of the news and the perceptions of the people. Here is what was predicted, and what has happened. f you remember nothing else, remember this phrase. It's the key to the Reagan and Bush administrations, and what has happend to America.

"Cheap Labor Conservatives"

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/05/03/con05093.html

Bush and the Cheap Labor Conservatives

You can look at any social or political situation with regard to how it affects the compensation and treatment of labor, and predict with one hundred percent accuracy where the Bush Administration will stand on it. If a policy is favorable to the working class, Bush and his cheap labor conservative allies oppose it, and vice versa. Bush and his "cheap labor conservatives" are against programs like social security, overtime, universal health care, unemployment insurance, minimum wage, unions, fair trade, or any government program that protects workers and gives them physical and economic security. The "New Deal" economic mechanisms that built that great American economic engine, the middle class, are being systematically dismantled.

More...

It's not a new issue but so many just don't accept the same shell game is being played again, but now on an easily manipulated global scale. It's criminal.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1025-32.htm

McKinley or Roosevelt? This Election is as Much About the Past as the Future - by Thom Hartmann

From the Gilded Age to the Great Depression to today, the economic agenda of conservatives has been easily summarized in two words: "cheap labor." Nowhere was that more clearly on display than in the recent decision by Judge William S. Howard that "relieved" coal companies from having to pay already-earned retirement benefits to coal miners in Kentucky, West Virginia, Indiana, and Illinois. While the coal industry spends millions on feel-good TV advertisements featuring an eagle impressed by how they're (ahem) cleaning up the air, coal companies are cleaning up their balance sheets to give stockholders and CEOs better returns, and using bankruptcy laws to bust unions. The newest scheme is for unionized companies with pension liabilities to declare bankruptcy - during a boom time in the coal business, particularly given coal's attractiveness compared to $55/barrel oil - and then sell their operations to each other to re-open with non-union labor.

More...

and here, another older article not accepted by too many liberals

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2003/08/cheaplabor_cons.html

Cheap-labor Conservatives

"Cheap-labor conservative" is a moniker they will never shake, and never live down. Because it's exactly what they are. You see, cheap-labor conservatives are defenders of corporate America whose fortunes depend on labor. The larger the labor supply, the cheaper it is. The more desperately you need a job, the cheaper you'll work, and the more power those "corporate lords" have over you. If you are a wealthy elite or a " wannabe " like most dittoheads your wealth, power and privilege is enhanced by a labor pool, forced to work cheap.

Don't believe me. Well, let's apply this principle, and see how many right-wing positions become instantly understandable.

Cheap-labor conservatives don't like social spending or our "safety net". Why. Because when you're unemployed and desperate, corporations can pay you whatever they feel like which is inevitably next to nothing. You see, they want you "over a barrel" and in a position to "work cheap or starve". Cheap-labor conservatives don't like the minimum wage, or other improvements in wages and working conditions. Why. These reforms undo all of their efforts to keep you "over a barrel".

More...

patb, thanks for your insight. This is a growth process for me! Thanks for having me here, everyone!

Anyway, now I'm reading in some places that people are actually trying to detract from the gravitas of the Nobel Peace Prize just because Al Gore got it. *rolls eyes* What's next, Harvard and Vanderbilt should be avoided in favor of Bob Jones and Oral Roberts due to their overly liberal bias? Ugh!

Gilgamesh

Yes Gilgamesh,
David Horowitz was interviewed on PBS the other night lamenting that College Professors at the Ivy's, are hired by an unbalanced process favoring the liberal side (Big eye roll!)
QOP

When I do transits/Progressions, I use a one-degree orb. The preceding degree, the degree itself, and the following degree. Clarifies things quite a bit. Birthcharts I use the traditional orb of 8 degrees or less, unless one of the Luminaries are involved. Also what I do is I line everything up according to number, including the Midheaven and Ascendant. This technique was very helpful with an ephemeris because then one could just look for the corresponding numbers and then figure out the transits. I find the effects otherwise too diffuse to be certain. Barry Lynes, of the Next 20 Years fame, found that transits.progressions do work that way.

Pat C, on top of that, sometimes I wonder about this administration's treatment of illegals. It only stands to benefit the really rich while the working and professional class get the shaft. All these advertising campaigns by the military targeted at Hispanics (whom I love btw, please please don't take that the wrong way - immigrants, wherever they are from, built this country as we know it and as long as they come in legally it is a good thing) makes me wonder just how long the CFR types intend to take this war on Terra.

Just in case the populace doesn't like this importing of cheap labor and tries an uprising, there's plenty of FEMA camps in place to remind us who's really in charge. Meanwhile USians and legal resident aliens are wondering where the heck justice went...

Totally agree about privatized health care being a carrot to enslave people to a neverending cycle of wage labor - don't wanna sweat for pennies in the most productive years of your life while corporate thugs are sitting and watching billions pile up in their war chests? No health care for you and your family then! Moore's movie "Sicko" is so right on so many levels.

Domestic abuse is horrific regardless of gender.
Both men and women and their children live as hostages when "home" is not a place of refuge but a place of danger and terror without relief or rescue.

To single out particular instances and solidify human intentions (as though one was there as a physical witness)is a cheap use of astrology.
No more than gossip. Exactly the sort of thing I was protesting in answer to Galgamesh.
To say moon/venus trines are feminist is hogwash.
I have a libra asc trine venus trine moon, but don't award myself unearned points for it.
I currently have a client who calls me daily, a man who has lost his family for his intensity and anger. I empathize with his pain and helplessness. He hates himself and it is very sad to witness. He blames himself without mercy.
Energy is energy without judgement but where it's channeled and deliberately directed. Everyone deserves chance. Anyone who suffers.

Gilgamesh, I used the wider orb for many years, and astrologers disagree on the orb, as my own research went on through the years I found the smaller orbs to work better, however you want to play around with them and see what works best for you. You mentioned Susan Miller and her sun sign astrology, sun sign astrology is absolutely a system and is employed many times when there isn't a whole chart to delineate. It's kind of like going to a doctor and saying "doc, what am I?" and he says "you're a man" and then goes on to detail all the surface qualities that make you a man and he would be right as far as his observation can go, but if you say "I have a pain in my lower abdoman" he would have to say "oh, you need a specialist." It all works.

Vedic astrology is a good system. The thing about astrology is, like any inexact science, the information is all there, we just don't always know what we are looking for. In the beginning of my 35 plus career, I looked for absolutes in astrology, there aren't any absolutes and that is what makes astrology forever fascinating and growing. It's slow to change because of the need to observe for many years in order to be able to confirm the impact of planatary movements on an individual, city, country, world, events, but it has changed through the centuries. A good example of this is Vedic astrology and their dire warnings with some of the aspects (they by the way use whole house systems, if your Mars is in the beginning of a sign, for them, it covers the whole sign) some of those dire warnings don't have an application today.

Good luck on your journey toward self-discovery and don't shut the door to your quest.

QOP, I thought I was just exaggerating about such a ludicrous notion. Not sure whether to laugh, cry or both! I hope zionists like Horowitz don't ruin it for Jews:

http://www.nkusa.org/index.cfm

That's the site of Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism. It took me a LONG time to find that; there is profound media censorship and disinformation still going on.

Sally, thanks for your insight. If you don't mind me asking, what are the orbs that you use? Of course, for large configurations like grand trines and kites I loosen up to 4' and certainly give consideration to an eclipse of planets e.g. if a conjunction is 4-5' wide but they are also parallel less than 1.2' I would call it a conjunction. Of course I still consider gradations of strength - I think an 8' trine of the Sun and Moon is still "sorta kinda" there, especially if the rest of the chart is amenable to that trine.

As for Vedic, just not sure yet. I do remember the use of sidereal, the recognizing of progression of the equinoxes and the house thing where a planet can be in 1' of a sign and another planet at 28' of a sign and still they aspect due to house position. Just a different filter on the same observation, I suppose. For sure I definitely want to learn more!

One other thing I got really into at one time was Tzu-Wei Purple Star from China - say Betsy, is that practiced over there? My mind naturally tries to draw on the similarities and there were many (digs up yellowed piece of canvas with Tzu-Wei chart, lol Merc Rx going over the past).

Gilgamesh

Stephen Colbert wrote Maureen Dowd's oped in the New York Times, since NYT is subscription here is a link to it on KOS

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/10/14/4496/9487

I laughed out loud more then once, I so needed a chuckle today.

Michael have you considered perhaps the reason you were born with Pluto-Libra is because it’s what you lack and need to try and attain in this life?

I find it interesting that you say you became a lawyer for fairness instead of for justice. Is that fairness for yourself or for others? I would bet that you became a lawyer because of your family. Which, by the way, you didn’t answer my question – did you go to public or private school? Or, was I right that you were home schooled? Which reminds me, since when is being called a child of God a slur?

If you want an honest debate, then why not start with being honest? Are you not a conservative? Are you not what you would call pro-life (I would call it pro-birth given there is no consideration for the “life” after that)? Be honest Michael, who are you, really?

Thanks,I bookmarked that site!
Sorry to have to verify your supposition!
QOP

I do use a wider orb on natal aspects, Eclipses I use one degree on either side. Tzu-Wei is practiced here, but not widely as yet.

I use a system that I devised several years ago, I used to teach it but most astrologers are reluctant to use it because it takes so much prep time prior to a reading and you have to synthesize so many charts. But I use a system of the natal, the pre-natal (the most useful accurate predictive tool I've found) and what the ancients called the soul or spirit chart (Draconic) synthesizing those (including the returns and progressions) really open up the human psychic. As an example say you have Jupiter on your Asc and people experience you as happy, good looking, lots of energy,etc. you might even be a stand up comic, but on an internal basis you could be angry or depressed or frustrated. Why? Nothing in the chart to set of a negative internal expression - you can see it in the pre-natal chart. I fell into this when a friend of mine had a son die and there was nothing in her natal chart, including fixed stars, mid-points, asteroids, progressions or return to indicate something that traumatic, nothing in the child's chart, but it was loud and clear in the pre-natal and Draconic of both of them.

When I do a mundane article and come to a prediction or conclusion I am delinating all those charts of all people or events concerned. I try to write the articles so everyone can understand it, because it is simply too unwieldy to cite all the information and absolutely not interesting to non-astrologers, plus I don't teach on-line, again too unwieldy for me.

My stars, Sally! I have been messing about with astrology for decades, and every time I think I'm getting a grip on the subject someone pops up with something I've never heard of before. Can't even find Draconic in my old "Dictionary of Astrology."

Anyhow, whatever and however you do it, you make it work.

Sally, are you talking about prenatal eclipses or approximate day of conception? If you mean the latter what formula might one use since that's just about this side of impossible to figure unless it's one's own child and recall the day and hour in the back seat of a buick!

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/opinion/14sun1.html?_r=1&ex=1350100800&en=d83b91bba47d5f5b&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&oref=slogin

NY Times editorial today:

Spies, Lies and FISA

As Democratic lawmakers try to repair a deeply flawed bill on electronic eavesdropping, the White House is pumping out the same fog of fear and disinformation it used to push the bill through Congress this summer. President Bush has been telling Americans that any change would deny the government critical information, make it easier for terrorists to infiltrate, expose state secrets, and make it harder “to save American lives.”

snip

Mr. Bush and his team say they have safeguards to protect civil liberties, meaning surveillance will be reviewed by the attorney general, the director of national intelligence and the inspectors general of the Justice Department and the Central Intelligence Agency. There are two enormous flaws in that. The Constitution is based on the rule of law, not individuals; giving such power to any president would be un-American. And this one long ago showed he cannot be trusted.

Barbara, here you go.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Draconic+Astrology&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Pat C, I agree wholeheartedly with that article by Thom Hartmann. I have realized this for years, and everybody keeps talking about it, but nobody seems to do anything about it! I feel so powerless in effecting a change; I want to, but I don't know where to start! I am personally experiencing this disappearance of my once middle-class life now., and I have to say it is more pervasive in the south where wages are much lower, than up north.

I had a great job in NY when Clinton was in power, worked for a decent wage - then the company was bought out by one of these corp. takeover giants, all because our CEO screwed up the finances of the Co., then came the events of 9/11 on the heels of a recession, and in Jan.'02, I,along with hundreds of others lost our jobs. Of course it's the grunts who always have to pay the price for a CEO screwing up, and if even he was fired, you know he would be leaving with a golden parachute as they all do. At that time, I couldn't find a job in NY, and I was hearing that the job picture was great in the South East, which is when I decided to move to Florida. What they don't tell you is that most of the jobs down here are in construction, or the service industry, and the wages are half what you earn up North. For the roughly 30 years that I worked in NYC, I worked a 35hr. work week. Now that I am older, I work a 40hr. work week for the same wages I earned in 1987, and I work harder. This is what the gvernment means when it says the productivity rate is up (longer unpaid hrs./lower pay). I guess the only way to escape Corporate slavery is to be self-employed, but that is easier said than done.

Crystal, one thing we can do is make an issue of it to those who are suppose to represent us and make a big issue out of it in the Presidential campaign. We must force those running to document what they intend to do about it. Past that, making strong statements locally is important.

I was first struck by this article by Arundhati Roy.

Confronting Empire

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=51&ItemID=2919

...........

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/10/14/rule_of_law/index.html

The Beltway Establishment’s contempt for the rule of law

The Washington Post’s Editorial Page, in the establishment-defending form of Fred Hiatt, today became but the latest Beltway appendage to urge the enactment of a special law providing amnesty to our nation’s poor, put-upon, lawbreaking telecoms…

snip

There is no such thing as a “patriotism exception” to the laws that we pass. It is not a defense to illegal behavior to say that one violated the law for “patriotic” reasons. That was Oliver North’s defense to Congress when he proudly admitted breaking multiple federal laws. And it is the same “defense” that people like North have been making to justify Bush’s violations of our surveillance laws—what we call “felonies”—in spying on Americans without warrants.

more

I want to add to the above post, that that was the first time that I had ever lost a job, and that it coincided with Saturn, the ruler of my second house of earned income going stationary retrograde. It will be slowly moving back to square my 12th house Mars which was operational in my natal chart.

To revisit what a fine man Al Gore is it is fascinating to read through the ordeal of his two mercy flights he arranged and paid for during Katrina whilst being blocked by BushCo at every turn. It didn't get much press coverage. He refused to talk to the press, he was too busy pulling important strings and urgently saving lives hands on. He didn't do a chickenhearted fly over, no he did a real fly in. Please do read this post:

http://www.politicalcortex.com/story/2007/10/12/17625/948
"Former vice-Prez Al Gore chartered a plane in Sept. 2005 and flew aboard for 2 roundtrips to New Orleans to rescue and medEvac 100s of patients from Charity Hospital and bring them to Tennessee. The VP declined interviews while he was shuttling the evacuees that Saturday September 3 and for a 2nd return flight he made the next day, but the doctors who flew with him talked about the experience."

"Gore had to work around a sequential blockade by FEMA, which naturally denied his team permissions, repeatedly."

There's a link in the post to TPM Cafe written by Greg Simon of FasterCures that goes into much more detail:
http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/9/7/164747/4155

And once you have read them recall this tidbit of bull:
"The federal government stands ready to work with state and local officials to secure New Orleans and the state of Louisiana," White House spokesman Dan Bartlett said. "The president will not let any form of bureaucracy get in the way of protecting the citizens of Louisiana."

In another link I had followed one comment summed it up perfectly, it said, "Al Gore has the HEART of a President". Indeed.

Re: Katrina and the feds, if I recall correctly didn't the Blackwater thugs prevent the *Red Cross* from coming into alleviate the horrific conditions in post-storm NOLA? Getting angry just thinking about this and the billions spent on the DHS and FEMA and for what.

Even though Gore and Bush both have Leo rising with Pluto closely involved with the Asc, I think the much stronger 12th house placements in Bush's chart show in the contradictory, paradoxical and hidden elements of his administration, while Gore's strong 1st house corresponds nicely with his upfront forthrightness and proud, dignified bearing. The more I think about it, the more I like the Gore/Obama ticket; I just am not sure about Clinton and her power-hungry Scorpio planets and strong Mars/Pluto.

Gilgamesh

Oh, Sally, do you have any books out or have any in the works?

http://www.alternet.org/story/65137/

The Hidden Health Risk of Cell Phones

Using a mobile phone for more than 10 years increases the risk of getting brain cancer, according to the most comprehensive study of the risks yet published. The study -- which contradicts official pronouncements that there is no danger of getting the disease -- found that people who have had the phones for a decade or more are twice as likely to get a malignant tumour on the side of the brain where they hold the handset.

The scientists who conducted the research say using a mobile for just an hour every working day during that period is enough to increase the risk -- and that the international standard used to protect users from the radiation emitted is "not safe" and "needs to be revised."

More...

Correct. Blackwater used NOLA for more lawless target range practice just like they do in Iraq. They indeed blocked the Red Cross and others from getting in and as a bigger issue prevented citizens from getting out. Having most of their National Guard in Iraq made it that much easier for them. With the reports coming out that Blackwater is pointing guns at and actually disarming our own military soldiers in Iraq it's clear to see how they were allowed to get away with it during Katrina. The National Guard wouldn't of been able to stop Blacwater it seems.

Something I didn't know is that originally Gore tried to arrange to fly them to Chicago because of past history of flood help, etc., and knowing the NOLA citizens would be more at home in Chicago than Houston. Later Sen Obama asked Gore how in the heck he was able to get help in when Obama couldn't no matter how hard he tried.

Shez SpiritEye,

The answer is experience and Bi-Partisaqn IOUs. Something the two parties used to do for each other during times of national crisis. It's ancient history in today's Police State though, so it's understandable that Obama didn't get very far.

Forgot to add that Robert Draper author of the latest Bush biography recently related this story:

"After he won the Texas governorship, and he said to an aide, the blacks didn’t come out for me like the Hispanics did, so they’re not going to see much help from me."

He's still proving that blatant racism to this day. It goes way back and helps clarify why he made sure he punished NOLA.

Do you suppose CLINTON has a pocket full of those Bi partisan IOU's?
My scorpio moon, would have started "taking notes" on people back in th 90's, since she's double scorp, do you think she has done that?
QOP

Forgot to add that Robert Draper the author of the latest Bush bio related this story:

"After he won the Texas governorship, and he said to an aide, the blacks didn’t come out for me like the Hispanics did, so they’re not going to see much help from me."

Much help? You mean no help. The disgusting racism goes way back and helps clarify and prove why Bush punished NOLA. Criminal.

Sorry not to get back sooner was in a reading. Here is the info on the Draconic Charts, they have been around forever and recently (the last 8 years come back into favor a little bit)

http://www.astrologycosmobiology.com.au/draconic_chart.html

Gilgamesh: A book? Now that's a bit of a sore subject for me, people have been asking me to write a book for at least 20 years and I don't feel I am A. good enough a writer and B. that I've never had the money to stop working and devote myself to a book. Recently the push to write one has become more insistent by my friends and I am still dragging my feet. I think it must be my Mars inconjunct Saturn, afraid to jump off that cliff.

Patb, pre-natal is the moment of conception chart and a guy named Bailey figured out the system decades ago (1916) The book is called "The Pre-Natal Epoch" and is out of print, but it was reprinted in 1970 if you can find it. Both the Draconic Chart and Pre-natal chart have been dismissed as useless, and when I begin playing around with them I would have agreed, it was only when I put the three together like a puzzle that all fell into place. I used to do it all by hand but the last decade I've had the Solar Fire system and that will calculate the Draconic (accurately) and the pre-natal pretty accurately. I still have to double check the pre-natal because it isn't always correct.

I would be shocked beyond belief if she didn't have an extensive list. And a memory that can recall every single tiny detail instantly. I do believe that's the very reason we see her collaborating with the Republicans so often. She's creating IOUs.

This is sad but might have the ring of truth to it. In which case 2012 at the earliest and 2020 the latest is a long time coming. Particularly read the last three or four paragraphs

http://makethemaccountable.com/index.php/2007/10/14/david-podvin-eternal-nightmare

Sally,

You already have a book in your experience. Mundane astrology using various charts together. Draconian, Pre-Natal and Natal. Or even personal astrology with the same systems.

Dane Rudhyar wrote that astrological writing should be done by students of astrology who have found methods that work, and new configurations as they are discovered and experienced in order to modernize and elevate astrology . It is an evolving system, just like any other science.

Just promise yourself to take the time to decide what one chapter will be and write it. If that works then move to the next level. Just write it and don't even think about publishing it.

Sheesh, the posting editor is acting up suddenly, sorry for the double post I was getting all kinds of errors, and one I've never seen before.

Yes thankfully Gore had alot more weight and contacts to call favors in and break through the obstructionist behavior and red tape. No wonder he looks so exhausted in the one photo. Mineta has been in the news again lately, I sure would like to do some research to see not if but how he was punished for helping Gore. The things we don't even know we had to look out for, eh? The focus becomes ever sharper by the day.

OH! And that goes double ditto for Morgana. Please write your books.

PatC, not surprising there's not been a single published study in the U.S.. scrolled through to find where it originated, and as expected, it's europe (england). If it's from "over there" hit ignore and go back to what you were doing, citizens.
Grow those shocking tumors for Big Brother.

Cap'n Sally, the Podvin article is very interesting, and very sad. Didn't JFK announce he would tell us all about the Elves of Bildenberg shortly before he was cut down?

Sally, thanks for that and will scout to find it.
I have Celeste Teal's Eclipses, Predicting World Events & Personal Transformation, pub. 2006 which covers prenatal eclipses and all kindsa points on those.

I've looked at my son's prenatal which is really beautiful. But alas, my own is rather a sad picture in approximation with merc conj. saturn in cancer (to my mother's b'day the previous year interestingly)..parents split when I was only 18 months old, terrible abuse with her TIGHT conjunction of sun/pluto/mars in early cancer.
Last of 3 and it all flowed downhill... . The old darlin' well cared for now in an excellent small nursing home in VT steals food from other people's plates I'm told.

http://phoenixwoman.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/between-the-lines/

Between the Lines

An editorial in the New York Times about Al Gore’s Nobel Prize begins:

One can generate a lot of heartburn thinking about all of the things that would be better about this country and the world if the Supreme Court had done the right thing and ruled for Al Gore instead of George W. Bush in 2000.

When did the New York Times decide that if the Supreme Court hadn’t blocked the full recount of Florida’s votes in the 2000 election, Al Gore would have been President?

Because that’s not what they were saying after the full review of the ballots by the National Opinion Research Center:

More...links within

patb, that's actually a serious study with peer review. Thank goodness for the ability, as you say, for the ability to still get actual news.

I just want to post somethin inspiring before I sign off. This really is.

Thoughts About the True Miracle in the Andes

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/101407A.shtml

Writing for Truthout, Cynthia Boaz says, "Exactly 35 years ago today, a horrific and extraordinary chain of events was set in motion high in the Andes above Chile. A small commuter plane carrying 45 people crashed on Friday, October 13, 1972. For the next two months, a group of survivors of the crash, most of whom were the young members of a Uruguayan rugby team called the 'Old Christians,' kept themselves alive against all laws of nature, physics and reason."

Sally, I got to meet Marcy Wheeler when she came up to Lansing to our Drinking Liberally group to do her Book TV interview on her book for the Libby trial. Nearly all of her material came directly from her collection of posts on her blog. They did a fundraiser online, for her, to collect the money for the editor/publishing expenses of the finished product of all her research she already had at her fingertips. The money paid for a small website to promote the book also. It was amazing how many people jumped in to help in all areas so that she could continue with her real job during the process and be covered financially from start to end.

Even a collection of key posts and material put into an eBook format to download a PDF would be wonderful if nothing else, and be a very inexpensive way to start out.

If you do decide to find the time to write a book or put a collection together I'd gladly donate to the project, and is there anyone reading here who is in the editing or publishing business to lend a hand? I do web design myself as do many others to help whip up a promotion page for anything you produce. We appreciate your excellent writing and believe in your talents. No surprise so many are clamoring for a book. Whether you do it or don't, and we can understand either way, you are a gift to the world just as you are. :)

Cap'n Sally, I can't find the JFK quote and it is interesting that some things are just no longer "there" on the internets (thanks, Al). I did run across this, though, an amazing (by the standards of today) speech JFK made about secret societies, state secrets, a free press, and an informed public. Just makes you want to weep at how low we have sunk.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/374938/john_f_kennedy_speech_on_secret_societies/

The reaction to Michael here troubles me. Unless I am very naive and/or missed something, he was challenged and confronted rudely when he did not start out being rude himself. I have seen that treatment used here before. Is it because it is easier to be rude on a blog when no one really knows you? Would you honestly be that rude in person? Why can't someone express an opinion that is opposite to the majority's without being confronted, generalized about, stereotyped, labeled? Have you people not heard of the Golden Rule? Yes, appropos Ecclesiastes, there is a time to be confrontive, I suppose, and honest and blunt, but if that tool isn't used discriminately, then we just create bad will and hurt feelings in the world...which only contributes to mental illness and violence. Why not just disagree respectfully, without getting personal, or let the person have their opinion without commenting or quarreling with it. Let it pass. Do people who disagree have to be jumped on. Engage the positive, ignore what you don't like, and show some respect and sensitivity. Sheesh!

I remain anon. here because I don't want to be the brunt of some reactionary, pseudo psychological analysis.

Bears repeating:

I'd never heard of Mumin Bey or his crew until he showed up, uninvited, in my email a year or so ago. To make a long story short, he, like Michael and other Muminites who show up on this blog and others, are self-appointed astro-Jihadists who believe they have a mission to preach a backward, bigoted "truth" to we who are "unenlightened."

I was even set up by a Muminite who tried to pass herself off as a woman who'd had an abortion and desperately wanted an astrology reading from me. I declined (this all took place by email) and advised that she connect with a physician and therapist in her local area. This occurred right after I'd done an article on Starcats.com about Roe v. Wade.

It is obvious that I support a woman's right to choose, but this should not be confused with the Right Wing bait and switch game of "that means you're pro-abortion." Jesus Christ, having the right to choose also means having the right NOT to choose to have an abortion. The idea of choice voids the stupidity of the childish argument.

These types act as though a woman who has to choose to terminate a pregnancy is some kind of harpie that best be punished by rituals straight from the Malleus Malificarum (Morgana, ya' dig?) I mean, is the corn being blighted again by us bitches who believe in Age of Enlightnment reasoning?

The woman did not give up. She began pestering me for a reading and I'd pretty much identified her as a Muminite. What gave me chills:

She wanted my phone number and ADDRESS so she could "mail me a check" for a reading. This is after I'd already declined to read for her.

That scared me because it crossed another line. Why did she persist in getting my personal information when I'd already made it clear I would not read for her? Was this so that "someone" would have access to my house in order to harass or even harm me? That's when I contacted my attorney.

This is what I advise everyone on AW to do when you see Michael, or a Muminite or any other self-styled troll appear on this or any other blog.

DO NOT FOR ANY REASON RESPOND TO THEM. IGNORE HIM AND ALL LIKE HIM. [not screaming]. When he or others like him cease to attention in the community, they -- like THE BORG -- will move on to suck out some other universe.

It would be good to report any such harassers to AFAN's legal arm. Astrodatabank's complaints against Mumin Bey and others of his ilk are on file with AFAN and other such astrological organizations. We really don't need to suffer these asses.

It better not start up in my email again either or there will be hell to pay. I actually do have legal remedies available to me, per advice given me by my attorney (and a friend at AFAN) the last time the Pox People invaded my email account.

Claudia

Posted by Claudia at October 14, 2007 12:37 AM

Pat B, read them together not separately, look to see what is aspecting from the Draconic or Pre-natal to the natal, also look at the pre-natal progressions and particularly the solar return to the pre-natal as it aspects the natal.

Luna, I do use the same system in personal charts for my professional practice

PatC, understood the cellphone peer study. What I meant was the suppression of such stories here in the u.s. on MSM which many will not get. There was one released on MSM 2 weeks ago about keeping children under 12 off cellphones because of a greater susceptibility to brain cancers by thinner membranes. That was good. But no warning to everyone else.

Sally, one last question on the prenatals if you don't mind. You mentioned "events" that relate to them. How do they relate to the "personality" and the "influences" upon that personality. I'd greatly appreciate your insight on this.
Looked over that prenatal afresh...above my memory of it from before, like anyone a song as complex as anyone's too much for here.

Woops, Sally. Didn't see your prior post 'til
now. Thanks!

Woot! Woot! Claudia has now posted her analysis of whether Al will run or not. It's over at starcats. Good read.

It really is a good article Shy, thanks for calling our attention to it, love Claudia's analysis. Heartily recommend it as a great read

http://starcats.com/Al_Gore_Wins_Nobel.html

Shez, I am stunned at your offer of help. I am looking into re-working this site, along with Morgana. We have several things in mind and are looking to our resources to help us put it together. Morgana is a lot more techno savvy than I am but I have a few kids (and lord knows I've logged enough grandmother hourse to cash in just a bit) and they will help me I think. I know what I want but don't know if it can be done. We will keep you posted. I am kind of excited about the prospect and kind of worried about my job, it's pretty demanding plus I do quite a number of readings so keeping up with it all will be a challange. But I think, "if not now when"

Have no idea about ebooks. But Sally, you do not have to write the *whole* book in order to sell it, you can write an outline and then submit a full chapter or two. I think for adult publishing (rather than juvenile publishing) you need to find an agent to shop it. There are books out that have the names of literary agencies and the genres they represent. Ask your published astrologer contacts how they got their books published. From my experience, I do not mind helping someone navigate the field, but I am not going to just give away my hard earned leads, contacts or ideas. So be polite, I know you are, pick some brains, and that will open doors. Best of luck.

Paul Krugman's new article on the constant hammering on Al Gore, why the right wing hates him and the media cannot stand him. Oddly enough it's because he's been right all along for starters and for finishers he won 2000 and they have not been able to prop their person up as the right man for the job. The glaring difference between the two men is seemingly enough to drive them wild.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/15/opinion/15krugman.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

If you read Starcats and Claudia's assessment of the chance that Gore would run (not) it is a good analysis as to his chances of getting into the race and his chances of winning. I think Claudia's correct on all points on why he wouldn't, shouldn't, can't and won't run. And yet, his Jupiter is on the Galactic Center, and transiting Pluto is conjunct and soon transiting Jupiter will also conjunct that point. Now the "Black Hole" Galactic Center in the heart of the Milky Way, "representing both the source and ending of the journey, the cosmic womb/tomb which birthed our system and which will one day reclaim it" (Alex Miller-Mignone - The Black Hole Book) Alex goes on to state that "Gregg Castellucci has compared the GC to the Hebrew YHWH (Yahweh) the nameless name, source of the I Am presence."
The GC has been known for a shift in collective consciousness. Al Gore's Jupiter is tightly intertwined with the GC and never more tightly than now with Pluto conjunct.

I agree with Claudia that the US is not ready for an Al Gore as President, but I am not ready to rule out a compelling reason for him to decide to run as spring approaches. To date I have read 5 different reasons leaked by Gore "aides" as to why he isn't or doesn't want to run now, the latest is his fear of the Hillary lead and the fact that he knows he won't be able to end the war, but there have been other reasons; "his family doesn't want him to, he's enjoying what he's doing, he doesn't think he is actually good at politics, and he wants to continuing awakening the world to global warming." I can't help but wonder why all the different reasons are promoted, three new ones just since Wednesday, all from aides and one from Gore himself "I don't know what I am going to do to maximize this honor (Nobel Prize)

His Jupiter Return (December 12, 2007 at 12:53pm in Washington DC) arrives with Pluto in tow, and just 4 degrees away from the Midheaven at 2 degrees Capricorn conjunct his natal Moon. Claudia has a much stronger case for him not running this year, and yet the Jupiter Return is at his midheaven conj. from the 9th house and his natal moon conj. from the 10th. I'm not holding out for the "dream" that Gore will run or be compelled to run, I am just holding out for "anything can happen."

Sally, great assessment on Gore, in fact, did you read my post about 45% scroll down on this same topic..have thought since '04 this election would not be good time for him to run. The aq/leo eclipse series in feb. marks the beginning of a long active 2 year time for he and his wife.
After all, he said he is content and hope he remains safe and happy. Why spoil it now?

(haven't looked at 2012 in depth yet, maybe then)

...Besides, the second Gore announces we'll hear an ungodly screeching wail from Hillary's house in Scarsdale, the likes of which no human ear has heard before.

There is a new age publisher, Samuel Weiser Inc. here in York Maine. All of the Liz Greene books I have bought were published here.
Their website has submission guidelines among other things.

http://www.weiserbooks.com/index.jsp

I don't know SHez if your web design include artwork, ........
I'm up for doing something visual for the site Sally. I have explored 'some personalized astrological portraits combining symbols and images............and would like to delve deeper into it.
QOP

I was wondering if anyone might be willing to revisit the astrology going on in the charts of Gore and Bush back in 2000. Perhaps Gore's stars weren't aligned properly to say "victory"? He did lose afterall.

Also: with Gore winning the Nobel Peace Prize while the Sun, Moon, Venus and Mars all in fall, and Mercury retrograde, might this suggest something?

I personally don't think anything major will happen on the alternate energy front until Pluto reaches Aquarius. But that's just my opinion. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Fascinating thesis put forth here. Not particularly comforting, but it is compelling:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/10/14/214424/81

To whet your appetite:

"I’ve only begun reading Naomi Klein’s The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism (reviewed here by SusanG). From my preliminary reading, I think Klein lays out some of the essential tenets of Bush authoritarianism and the roots that wend in to Chicago School economics, personified by Milton Friedman. A radical drive toward privatization is at the heart of Bush authoritarianism, and is why I vehemently reject the claims that Bush et al are just engaging in a new fascism."

Claudia-thank you for your very clear, succinct information. Yesterday I posted something to the point regarding "men" who are so twisted by the wicked feminist that they are afraid to reach out to any woman. I said then that this is fundamentalist BS and asked if we can't protect ourselves from this type of attack. My post didn't come through-I think because there was an interruption here.
All of this pleading for us to see things both ways is a ruse-Libras argue their point they are not wishy=washy. I am frightened that Michael is allowed to go on and on when some mean women got shut right down.

I just reread this entire post. Wow-HMMM??? Mercury in Scorpio turns retrograde and trines Mars?? Nast doings at least for me thinking this site must have some strong Aquarius/Taurus/Leo points because it sure does seem that we are under attack from some mean dudes (dudes could be women also).
At any rate based on what I read-Morgana I e-mailed you thursday or Friday night but never heard back. Wondering if I didn't get eaten by the guardian you have working for you. Can't say that I blame you just wanted to say that I was trying to reach you.

Dudes could be just one dude, hydra-like, or just a hive mind.

Oh yes Michael, Gore's chart shows a win and a life peak, the loss was to theft.

His Nobel prize has won him the respect of the entire world; Read Krugman's NYT article "Gore Drives the Right-Wing Insane" with the jealous and lazy republican party. (that must be the 'fall' planets you mention).
Your mask is OFF.

I just want to say here, that I am an American, and I am ready for Al Gore. Now. Today. If elected, I'll bet he would straighten out the FCC in very short order. Monopolies would probably become illegal quickly and the list of very rich people who agree with him is powerful. He does have his friends.

Regarding what's going to happen on the alternate energy front, there's so much being worked on now behind the scenes now, that there is bound to be some major changes in the next few years. Jupiter will be in Aquarius after Capricorn and that should bring a lot of it into focus. I don't think we can wait 20 years (?) for Pluto to go into Aquarius, but by the time that happens, I can imagine things will be very, very different.

PatC, the darkest shadow ever known stands over this country. Gore would handily win the '08 election, just as he did in 2000.
That's just more goodness and joy than the RW would allow the american people and such an asset to the world, I'm worried they'd assassinate him.

patb, I think they are willing to do anything...at all. Fearing them is just a huge mistake. It gives them the power they crave. They must be opposed and they must be beaten down to be so small they can be flushed down the bathtub drain....to quote the center of their universal thinker.

Every morning when i accelerate my very old Toyota up the incline entrance to the freeway I am reminded that we are indeed cells of one body. My way of life is so much brought to me by the oil companies.HMMM! When Pluto enters Aquarius Uranus wll be heading for my Uranus return.My grandfather used to tell me stories about how much the world had changed since he rode in a covered wagon with his family from Alabama to Arkansas. Wonder what stories I will tell my great grandchildren.

BTW Sally, you have such a treasure trove of knowledge it would be incredible to see it more in-depth (maybe we wouldn't pester you with so many questions!). If by chance you were inspired by the beautiful appearance of jm's site, those photos are repro-ed from slick high-end magazines which is where they came from. Wonderful eye for design altho amature astrology.

Also, wonder if you or anyone here have the birthchart for AW. Maybe a good rebirth is cure for the odd outburstings and invasions here. Wonder why this one and not others.

http://commonsense.ourfuture.org/conservatives_and_al_gores_nobel?tx=3

Conservatives and Al Gore's Nobel

For conservatives, everything is political war. Al Gore wins the Nobel Peace Prize, reflecting the entire world's consensus that man-made climate change is a crisis? For conservatives, that means: time to discredit the Nobel Peace Prize itself as a pathetic racket—or, as National Review's Steven F. Hayward puts it, "a once-prestigious award," now suffering its "final debasement."

It raises an interesting question. When did conservatives first begin questioning the prestige of the Nobel Peace Prize? Steve Benen and James Fallows point out that would be 1964, when the Prize was won by Dr. Martin Luther King.

More...

Gore doesn't need to run when he can do this! LOL! He's outsmarting everyone!

http://current.com/people/algore

lunaoscura-WOW!! LOL!!! indeed. My oh MY watch out I believe the proverbial shit is hitting the fan. WHEEE!! so nice to have someone talk plain.

He didn't invent the internet, but he's sure re-inventing it isn't he!?

Thanks to Clymela, Luna, Sally, Shylurker, et al.

BTW -- Just ordered Naomi Klein's book from Amazon :)

To Sally --

". . . And yet, his Jupiter is on the Galactic Center, and transiting Pluto is conjunct and soon transiting Jupiter will also conjunct that point. Now the "Black Hole" Galactic Center in the heart of the Milky Way, "representing both the source and ending of the journey, the cosmic womb/tomb which birthed our system and which will one day reclaim it" (Alex Miller-Mignone - The Black Hole Book) Alex goes on to state that "Gregg Castellucci has compared the GC to the Hebrew YHWH (Yahweh) the nameless name, source of the I Am presence."
The GC has been known for a shift in collective consciousness. Al Gore's Jupiter is tightly intertwined with the GC and never more tightly than now with Pluto conjunct."
From where I sit, your paragraph above transcends the job of president and is a call of consciousness to usher in a new age. If the Mayan calendar is right, then "the end of an age" -- or life on planet earth as we've known it culturally, economically, socially and biodiversely is about to radically shift into another zeitgiest. I think Al Gore is on the cutting edge of a new zeitgeist. I believe that is his role.
We spoke on the phone a few days about about the difference between wanting something (like the presidency) and being called -- as vocation or IN-vocation via the outer planets.
What if Al Gore's role (hits to the GC point in his chart you beautifully analyzed) is "beyond" temporal power? What if the U.S. presidency is NOTHING in comparison to what Al Gore's IN-vocation really is?
If we got what we wanted, would Gore really be "free" to do the greater job he seems called to play?
I think Gore's natal Sun in mutual reception with Mars/Sun opposite Neptune on it's face talks about "missions" and a zeal (Mars) to stand for something that would allow Neptune (lighted by the Sun in opposition) to shine forth as IN-vocation. Switch the Sun with Mars and put Mars in the Sun's place (as is the rule with Mutual Receptions) and read "Mars opposite Neptune." This, on the dark side, would be a holy crusade sanctioning death and torture. Mars and Neptune are reallly tricky. But the higher nature of these two in strong aspect is the "making sacred" of an issue or quest.
I believe that the Jupiterian QUEST (the GC hits you mentioned) connected with T-Pluto bring great powers of persuasion and great enrichment on the earth plane when speaking of temporal powers. But when we get back to IN-vocation, I think this is what Gore is responding to....he is absolutely called. He's answering, but not in the earthbound way. His legacy is for decades -- and maybe centuries to come.

Thanks PatB for the info and I don't give out the birthdate of Astroworld. I think the reason this site is attacked is I am one of the few sites where you don't have to register your name, address and email of anyone who wants to post comments. Most of the sites keep a profile of everyone so those people can be tracked. I may have to go that but not at this time.

The whine of voracious liberals

Does the extremism of some progressives spell danger to delicious evolution? Well, yes

By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist

Friday, October 12, 2007

I hear it nearly every week in response to nearly any column that has anything to do with me daring to say I appreciate or admire or moderately wish to commend some sort of progressive movement or corporation or product, one that appears to be creating some sort of good in the world, moving things forward or upending the status quo or infuriating the religious right and making you think/shop/screw anew.

I get the e-mails. And there is, by and large, a general outpouring of agreement, understanding, clarity. There are also lots of healthy disagreement, discussion, valid points of contention. There is the requisite tiny hunk of phlegmy, grunting hate mail from the turgid and the monosyllabic and the neoconservative. Well and good and lovely.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/g/a/2007/10/12/notes101207.DTL&type=printable

Claudia, it's interesting (after our conversation) and when Gore won the Nobel Peace Prize I had a strange experience and maybe his Jupiter Return on his mid-heaven is an astro answer to that experience. I felt as if the Presidency would be a step down, suddenly this administration and this government felt so small to me and in it's present state unworthy of a person with such a broad and far reaching effect.I so badly want Gore to run and to win but I also believe in my heart that he goes way beyond this as we spiral downward in this country and oddly enough England is spiraling downward as well. On of the MP's who is a client said they think England is being turned into a dictatorship (literally)I do know something great in ahead for Gore over the next 12 years, but I don't think it will be the presidency. My hope is I'm wrong.

It's going to take at least two Jupiter-Saturn cycles to turn around the damage done to the United States under the Bush regime. There are catastrophes looming ahead of us on the economic, medical, international diplomatic and environmental fronts. By the time the next president is inaugurated, we will have wasted 8 precious years on the craptastic Culture Wars the GOP cynically used against the nation as well as the tragic lie called the Iraq "war."

We talked about how we have no time to waste. We're behind schedule. The whiners about Global Warming being fuzzy science (Bush's term) remind me of what I've read in history about the Flat Earth people who insisted that the Sun revolved around the earth. Poor Galileo! While Cheney and the rest masturbate Bush into thinking he's THE DECIDER, we're going down the sewer.

Check out retrograde Ceres in transit at 21 Taurus. It's very close to the degree of the 2000 Jupiter-Saturn conjunction in Taurus. The next 20 years of socio-economic and political issues are, in large part, connected to how trade, etc., impacts the environment. Look at the poisoned food -- tons of beef recalled because of E-Coli again last week. All those animals slaughtered only to have their bodies contaminated and then wasted. I could go on and on...

If Gore were to become president what poetic justice! Nemesis would have finally spoken to those who need a time of reckoning with a kind of soul-level lesson in retribution. I'm not talking Schadenfreude (although that feels oh so good at times). I talking about a much deeper confrontation with "that which lies beyond ourselves" in the universe.

Sally, per your comment on England. I had a dream a few days ago that the Bank of England failed ... very strange dream.

Several weeks ago Claudia I was listening to an interview with a guy who was an acknowledged expert on the Mayan calendar and he said the Mayan's had hundreds of calendars all with different ending dates, they were like "event" calendars, the 2012 is the only calendar to have survived intact and it was their war calendar. I had never heard that one before at all and was thinking could the world be sick of war by 2012 or could their be a third world war at that time? Reminds me of the question put to Einstein "what will the weapons be in the next world war?" and Eistein said "I don't know what weapons will be used in WWIII but I do know that the war after that will be fought with sticks and rocks."

Marta, the Bank of England is failing, there was an article about it recently in the Guardian and BBC so your dream is very very timely

Sally, was it Bruce Scofield? He's the guy I've paid the most heed to re Mayan Calendar. He has been discussing greater/lesser cycles therein and says 2012 is one of the greater cycles. I am not versed in it, so can't discuss factors of it at any great depth.

Have your read Kevin Philips? His "Wealth and Democracy" in America book is one of the best. He discusses economics re Empire: England, Portugal, the Dutch. He talks about Empire's decline from the historical vantage point and calls attention to what the USA is doing that "dooms" it (charged word, I know) to the same fate as the aforementioned nations.

I mention KP's book because of Marta's dream. UK banks are failing as a result of the USA's mortgage lending scam. Ain't Greenspan great? He knew all about it but failed to do anything about it years ago when the real estate boom was set to go bust. He signed onto Bush's tax cuts so he could get one, then later writes a locker room book about how he was against Bush's tax cuts. Bwaaaahahaha!! You gotta love these people!

Re Greenspan: I don't know why, but when it comes to money it looks like people have a different set of rules about it. It's wrong to kill people, but it's OK to make a profit from selling arms, or, conversely, I'll do anything for you if you're starving and about to lose your house, except lend you money, even if it were to keep you out of the gutter or save your life. It doesn't matter where or how you make a profit because the rules are different.

Hi Lunaoscura -- Your points are well taken.

I'm amazed, too, at the people I call "warriors for the blastula in the petrie dish," AKA/pro-lifers of the rabid variety. They're all for what they call the sancity of life until it comes to funding SCHIP or helping the poor or foregoing their tax cuts because our soldiers are dying in Iraq (which would be the moral thing to do), or doing anything at all about saving species who are either going extinct or are threatened by global warming.

Real pieces of work, aren't they?

Bush thinks #35 million for more SCHIP funds is "irresponsible," but privatizing war via Blackwater or spending Billions a month murdering Iraqis is fine and dandy.

I wonder if these "Blastula" people ever sit down and think about the pregnant women in Iraq that were bombed and killed in our initial invasions? Or the deaths of pregnant women from IED's, a phenom that is the USA's fault, not the Iraqis.

Ohhhhh nooooooooo. Never a thought about that, right?

I mean petri dish. lol!

Back at the keyboard after a strange day and a half. (Don't ask.)

Thanks Pat C, for link to Draconic chart. And thanks Sally for Draconic info. I've been planning to buy some astrological software (my old stuff died just before my former computer did) so definitely will be looking at SolarFire.

Re why this site is attacked--clearly the fact that commentors don't have to register is a factor--but also it has occured to me before that the regular posters on this site are so friendly, civil, and fair, that the site may seem an easy target for those personalities who equate kindness with weakness.
(Big mistake.)

Are we heading towards a 1929-like economic crash?

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/10/15/are-we-heading-towards-a-1929-like-economic-crash/

There are some alarming signals and trends that are making economists very nervous that we are hurtling towards another economic crash. On Friday’s Bill Moyers Journal, guests Robert Kuttner and William H. Donaldson spoke on the parallels they see, especially as it relates to the giant inequities brought on by under-regulated hedge funds.

WILLIAM DONALDSON: Absolutely. The SEC is– that’s its role: investor protection. And a protection of the markets themselves, to make sure that they’re being run properly.

ROBERT KUTTNER:And I would add that there are two purposes to regulation. One is to protect investors; the other’s to protect the whole system from systemic risk, from meltdowns. And when people talk about George Soros can take care of himself, people forget that other purpose of regulation, it’s to protect the whole system. And the other problem is that pension funds and university endowments and– the endowments of charities are now investing in hedge funds. So it is funds that sort of–

BILL MOYERS: That scare you?
ROBERT KUTTNER: –little– terrifies me.
BILL MOYERS: Terrifies you.
Full transcripts of the program available here.

My pleasure Barbara. It was just a great opportunity to once again practice my unending appreciation for the great google.

...........

http://therealnews.com/web/index.php?thisdataswitch=0&thisid=485&thisview=item

On September 26th, Senator Clinton voted for the Kyl-Lieberman Amendment, which designates the Iranian Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization. She was the only Democratic Presidential candidate who voted for the resolution.

"This isn't our present policy of keeping the military option on the table. It is, for all practical purposes, mandating the military option"

-Senator Jim Webb

"...the regular posters on this site are so friendly, civil, and fair, that the site may seem an easy target for those personalities who equate kindness with weakness. (Big mistake.)"

Dontcha love the way the perpertrator blames the victim then tries to act as saviour? Giveaway.

Transit asteroid Nemesis at 28 Scorpio semi-sextile Pluto/GC/BH. I'm guessing there are deep transformations and shedding of layers around the light. Cosmic justice. Any other ideas?

Hi, bhakti,

I didn't quite understand your comment. But am going through a dense phase right now.

I didn't mean to say that friendliness, civility, fairness, kindness are mistakes. Meant to say that mistaking those traits for weakness is a mistake.

But maybe that is what you meant, too.

Hi, bhakti,

I didn't quite understand your comment. But am going through a dense phase right now.

I didn't mean to say that friendliness, civility, fairness, kindness are mistakes. Meant to say that considering those traits weakness is a mistake.

But maybe that is what you meant, too.

Oh, we're really getting down to the nitty-gritty now. The telecoms are saying they can't tell Congress nuttin' about wiretapping after OR before 9/11/01 on orders from the WH. Something having to do with *are you ready; can you guess?* national security.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/056009.php

Sally and Claudia ... I can't help but wish that it stays a dream (the failing of the Bank of England), because where they go, we will follow. Urk! Even though I know in my heart of hearts that's what needs to happen because there is no way there is going to be a shift otherwise. The phoenix can't rise until all is turned to ashes. The Bushies like to talk about a new world order (I'm using lowercase on purpose), my bro used to tell me, "be careful what you wish for" ... I'm of two minds, wondering why we get to live through this and another mind ... wonder what's going to happen. But it is kinda like watching a train wreck, fascinating (only problem is we're on the tracks).

IT HASN'T FROSTED YET! Well the fir=eld across thestreet and slightly up hill fronm me had a frost on it, so did the creek bank down below,,,,,,,,,,but here in the middle ground, still temporate! Had I known I would have planted twice as much!
QOP

Well said, Marta. And what you said works equally well for a dozen or so other major issues.

That is FIELD across the street.
I'm punchie, I drove 300 miles today!
QOP

Hi Barbara,

We meant the same thing :)
My take was to expose the m.o. of the teardown.

Shy, no doubt about that!

Thanks, bhakti.

I just read Claudia's article on Al Gore, and it is brilliant. I also agree with her, in that I don't think he should or would run for President for the very reasons she stated. And I think most of us are forgetting the one consolation to Gore not winning in 2000. Have you all forgotten who his VP running mate was? Lieberman! I cannot stomach the man.

I was also reading the link that Gilgamesh posted about the ant-Zion Orthodox Jews - my sentiments exactly. I consider Israel to be an illegal state, and as such, I do not recognize its existence, and I think it will have to be dismantled for there to be lasting peace in the region. In the former Palestine, Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived together in peace, and all religions were free to worship in an undivided Jerusalem. I don't know if it will ever be that way again, but it was much better than what we have there today. I have two large volumes of the Encyclopedia Of The Palestine Problem by Issa Nakhleh. I have had it for years, but never got a chance to read it, and don't even remember how I got it, but I have a feeling that the truth about the history of Palestine lies somewhere between those pages.

Actually Claudia, more Iraqis, men and women alike, are killed by far more militias, criminals and kidnapping rings, and Al-Qaeda in Iraq than were/are ever killed by coalition forces. Last week I was listening to a powerful audio diary series by an Iraqi dentist, very young in his late 20s. He wasn't afraid of the US/UK troops, he was afraid of the groups I mentioned, and he said so. This was on NPR.

Let me also say Claudia, that while I respect your astrological skill, I deplore your attempts at libel against Mumin Bey. If you think you have a legitimate legal case against him or anyone else, you are setting yourself up for a huge shock. In fact, based on what you posted *twice* here in this forum, he has a basis for a defamation suit. Just wanted to point that out, for what its worth.

Sally, I'm a bit confused. Earlier in this thread, or it might have been the one Morgana started, you said two contradictory things. You said you were a partisan, and that you were about seeking the truth.

You then point out to me that posting entire articles and the like shouldn't be done, because they chew up bandwith. Yet this website is replete not only with links to articles, but often links *and* large chunks of said articles. From what I've read thus far, no one received such an admonishment from you on this.

From this I have to conclude, that it isn't "bandwith" that's at issue, but rather the source of the article. This I find deeply problematic if true, because of the simple reason that several people on this site made what most people would consider some meanspirited ad hominem attacks on the man; one person misrepresented what Mumin said by deliberately quoting out of context reaction comments to a piece he wrote; another person posted their allegations against him *twice*. And I note that this post was quite lengthy. Again, no admonition from you or anyone else, about bandwith.

So my cut and paste, lengthy as it was, I fully admit, was my attempt to level the playing field. The reaction comments clearly show, that there is indeed a "fair and balanced" view when it comes to the man.

But more to the point Sally, and we both share Libra energy so I hope we can reason together here, I think your stated goals are working at cross purposes with each other. I'm not as old as many of you here, but I've been around long enough to know that its very tough to be both a partisan and a truthseeker. Nigh impossible.

You see when you're a partisan, the truth must, *must*, take a backseat to your side of the story getting out. All that matters is that your side "wins".

When you're seeking the truth however, you're open to all sides having their say, because you don't care where or from whom the truth comes. What's important is that the truth is found, not who found it.

So it seems to me Sally, based on the comments of many of the "regulars" and from those who don't post as often, you might have some soulsearching to do. You have to decide if being a partisan is more important than being a truthseeker, or vice versa. Please note, that I'm not saying you do one or the other, and as always I respect your right to do as you choose. All I'm asking is that you be clear on what you're doing and why. This is especially important if you have any plans to write a book or two. Clarity of thought and logical consistency is key to good book writing. Take it from one who's had to write quite few tomes (and who has quite a few friends who done the same and much more).

For example, lets go back the piece on spousal abuse I posted. At the end of the piece Mumin makes the argument that those who decry the ills of the Patriot Act, on the grounds that it robs American citizens of their civil liberties, remain oddly silent when the VAWA has done and is doing the very same thing right before our eyes; the Duke case gives glaring witness. This is why the ACLU spoke out against the Patriot Act *and*, the VAWA, because both are laws that can seriously compromise a person's civil liberties. But then again the ACLU takes on all comers, with an eye to the truth. The question here is, are you?

Hello Michael, just a quick response, Sally and I both have whacked whole pieces people publish. It's an ongoing bandwidth problem.

Oh yes indeedy we are partisan, I'm not opened minded to the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of People. Put the People first, all People, not Corporations.

Truth, it's out there in bloody living color.

I still have not been able to find my horse patootie fly spray. Darn. Have you see it around anywhere, Morgana?

Micheal, Bullshit. You got nothin'. I haven't libeled MuMu and I haven't said anything that has had any negative impact on his capacity to earn his living. I mean, where's your proof for damages? Did he suddenly have to file bankruptcy in the last 72 hours because of posts on Sally's astrology blog!? Bwaahahahaaa!

If you're really a lawyer, how do you get "libel" from a truthful account I gave of his abusive emails to me? And of the phony reading scam one of his adherents tried to rope me into? That's not libel. That's simply truth -- I can prove it. And because I can prove it, you don't even have a simple MuMu defamation claim.

My attorney is in possession of the original emails complete with headers, so don't threaten me, little man. Not a good idea. Either you (or your Moomy) bring on a lawsuit against me RIGHT NOW or STFU.

You don't have jack and you know it.

He and that girl did exactly what I said they did. If harm were to come to me as a result of that harassment, I'm the one who would have a case. Give it up, Michael. I'm the injured party here. Not your dear little Moomy.

Why do you think I kept those emails? If that nutty girl turned up on my door step, or one her or MuMu's agents, representatives, assigns, employees, etc., showed up and caused me harm, or came simply to annoy, harass or vex me, I would definitely have a lawsuit. I can't stop emails from flowing to me, but I can hit back lawfully against someone who aggresses against my person. That was the point I was making. You know that. But you've been quick to misjudge me.You sought to intimidate by playing your bogus "libel" card. Baaaaaaaad idea.

Like I say, BRING IT, or STFU. You don't scare me. I spent 17 years working as a legal assistant and/or paralegal with some of the finest attorneys in the country. I have wide, wide access and plenty of favors I can call in.

BTW, what kind of lawyer are you? Ambulance chaser or dog bites?

"Let me also say Claudia, that while I respect your astrological skill, I deplore your attempts at libel against Mumin Bey. If you think you have a legitimate legal case against him or anyone else, you are setting yourself up for a huge shock. In fact, based on what you posted *twice* here in this forum, he has a basis for a defamation suit. Just wanted to point that out, for what its worth."

"Sally, I'm a bit confused."
from 4:10 am, Oct 16, 2007, above.

Duh!!!!!!!!

Michael, you are so right, of course, the truth. I had forgotten how important the truth might be in my writing, don't know why I didn't think of it before. I think I just slipped, the truth has become such a lost commodity in politics and the media today, and it must have spilled over into my opinions. I will take your chastisment and keep it in mind and if you read my articles remember I am keeping the "truth" first and foremost.

The clock on these sites aren't exactly accurate Shy, different time zones, not changed for daylight savings time and just plain off.

as an example Shy, my above post says 7:03am but it's actually midnight here.

Just had a funny thot re the upcoming pluto/uranus square.."the zombie (pluto) slowly and relentlessly, arms outstretched pursues the townspeople (uranus)who easily outwit and outrun their unwelcome invaders".
Early aries (lord, I know I'm one)are the canaries in the coalmine for that transit, effecting the likes of Pelosi, Leahy, and Gore to name a few.

a tiny whisper:

WHO THE BLEEP CARES ABOUT MUMU?!!!!

What an inane topic! Pack it up already!

Michael I swear you are like a 350-pound teenager laying on the couch. Pack up your cheetos and hit the pike willya? You have nothing in common with anyone here and you know it.

Was about to post the Krugman NY Times op-ed but saw that Sally beat me to it.

Michael, I kind of regret defending you as it seems you are taking what should be an offline discussion and making it very public, which is detracting from real astrological and political discussion. Get a grip, dude.

Too busy to go over the dirty details...

Gilgamesh

Can anyone here help! I can't acess my hotmail address!
Help!!!!!!!!

Page Not Found

Sorry, I can't find the page you have requested. The page may be temporarily unavailable, or no longer exists on our servers.
Please make sure you have typed in the correct address.

If the problem persists please contact Customer Service.

Return to Homepage.

© 2007 Microsoft TERMS OF USE Advertise TRUST Approved Privacy Statement GetNetWise Anti-Spam Policy
I've been getting warnings for 2 days now & I thought I had signed up for the "NEW WINDOWS LIVE" The library is closed today so I can't even go see if I can access it from a PC computer!

BTW................I googled my hotmail address and found those times when I posted it on AW last year, along with accompanying comments.
Thanks for the calendar endorsement Shylurker it's there for posterity!
Along with my Maine Arts Commisssion listing, and my Faux finish directory listing!
Geeesh,
Playing techy wasn't on my list of things to do today!
QOP

Well I guess I have disappeared into the black hole! I must now have the "latest Internet Explorer" I THOUGHT I HAD IT! WOULDN'T YOU THINK A COMPUTER as pricey as mine would have come with the latest? Last word in high tech!
YES I'M HAVING A FULL BLOWN SCORPIO MOON TEMPER TANTRUM AT 5 AM!
I am basically living as a Libertarian, (not by choice).
Grow my own veggies it's safer........
make my own bread it's cheaper..........
Artwork 10/7 no time for ...........
clean my own house......caan't afford it other wise........
ANd a part time job on top of it!................
Now my efficiency is sacrificed so the adolescent boyz can have more toyz to play with...they're bored with the status quo "poor dears"
And later I will tell about my day yesterday when I was accosted by an angry conservative.in a CITGO station.........."THEY"RE EVERYWHERE"! EXCEPT CANADA!
QOP

Holy Moly Michael! What did you have for breakfast? I can't for the life figure out why you're hanging out here, when you could be HANGING WITH MU, who you obviously like and admire tremendously.

And to top it off, now you've gone and insulted Sally (and Claudia!), who has to be one of the kindest and most open minded people I have ever had the pleasure to meet online. Jeez. Way to go! You must feel really proud of yourself.

You obviously either don't have enough to do and/or haven't been taught manners. You really make me think that you most assuredly espouse conservative creds, because nobody who is a liberal would have evinced the bad manners and chutzpah to do what you just did - while "conservatives" (not the real ones, just the new ones) think that's the way to have a discussion (not!). You've really been watching too much Faux Noos. You should stop. It's contaminating and ruins people and makes them good for nothing and that's your style of conversation. You appear incapable of processing ideas and arriving at a whole. You pick things to pieces until there's nothing left, and miss the point. Typical litigator.... too bad. Don't be argumentative for arguments sake. It's so today and so tiring.

Hi Sally
Since you're the most knowlegeable amongst us when it comes to being familiar with Ms Clinton's chart.
Care to comment?
Everything I've read today on the various USA web sites says the Democratic race is much much closer than most people think. Lots and lots of people throughout the US still undecided.
If this is right and as Walter Shapiro suggests
How Hillary could tank
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/10/16/hillary_10/

How will she respond when it's proved it's a close contest?
Stop sitting on the fence or go in for character assassination of her opponents.

I guess what's being asked here is what astrological aspects in her chart give us a hint of her dark side.

I once had a tenant........a paralegal from Phila.
He was a "con man" ( He gained my confidence by being very nice and helpful) Sent my boxes of stuff back to NJ, ( I was marooned there with a dead car motor, & got a job to pay for it.) with his friends who even loaded them into my truck while I was working.........
then he never paid the rent for 8 months! He lived in my house like a 400 lb 14 year old, on perkadan and prozac, bouncing off the walls. He fell off my stairs bent several brass coat hooks and was planning to sue me. I found copies from a law book, in the house, fortunately, he didn't have a case!
Legal aid didn't help landlords just tenants so I couldn't have him extracated, and at the end of the day tho I won the small claims case in court, he declared bankruptcy, ( with bank accounts and a cabin in 3 other states court wasn'tinterested ipursuing that) and he clogged my life with 300 magazine subscriptions, I had to call & cancel & tried a smear campaign. Fortunately the postmaster recognized hishandwriting and pulled all the letters!
This was several years before my saturn return!.
Sound familiar?
I DID get my hotmail! I guess I will leave it open all day so it won't disappear again. I wish there were a phone number that I could call and see what their problem is!
Oh and my car insurance is acancelled AGAIN 3rd tiome this month even tho I have paid them, AIG advertises on PBS BOYCOTT!
Now that I am in a creative mood I guss I will go paint!
How about black on brown! Sound pretty?
QOP

Geeez, this Michael person is distracting to normal conversation.

Keep in mind: Compassionate Conservatives are neither.

QOP, don't you get automatic updates every once in a while for the stuff on your computer? If not, you might want to contact microshaft--I mean, Microsoft--about getting those updates.

Members of the military (in addition to all those "retired" generals) are finally beginning to say "Enough!" I'll betcha this kind of thing will accelerate quickly:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/15/AR2007101500841.html

Patb, I just reread your post (below) and had to laugh, it applies to Michael / AW too!

+++++++

Just had a funny thot re the upcoming pluto/uranus square.."the zombie (pluto) slowly and relentlessly, arms outstretched pursues the townspeople (uranus)who easily outwit and outrun their unwelcome invaders".
Early aries (lord, I know I'm one)are the canaries in the coalmine for that transit, effecting the likes of Pelosi, Leahy, and Gore to name a few.

There has to be some heavy Neptune transits causing Pelosi to behave the way she is right now.

Do you think Michael is really a lawyer? Somehow, I find that hard to believe.

This is getting to be a long thread and takes some time to get to where a person can post. I am starting a new thread and Stan we can try to answer the Hillary questions on the new thread. I think she has a doozie of a primary coming for her

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1068699/posts

Bush and Blair nominated for Nobel peace prize

The Freepers thought the Nobel was pretty hot stuff in 2004.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,645075,00.html

Shoulder to shoulder, Blair and Bush nominated for peace prize
Tuesday February 5, 2002

One has ordered his forces into battle more times than any other postwar British leader. The other threatens military action against "evil" nations and keeps a scorecard of dead al-Qaida leaders, marking each fatality with an X.

Now, Tony Blair and George Bush have received international recognition for their unswerving willingness to use force: a nomination for the 2002 Nobel peace prize.

The prime minister and US president have been jointly nominated for the accolade by a rightwing Norwegian politician who believes their military campaign against terrorism meets Alfred Nobel's criteria that the winner "shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses".

More....

www.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Lots of info on this site and be sure to follow the links for a full understanding of the many variations:
www.http://www.flayme.com/flame/

The tactics of Flamers/trolls:
www.http://www.alsirat.com/flame.html

I am a long time lurker who posts on very rare occasions. I am also a mod on a non-astrology board and have had dealings with trolls. This board has some of the most congenial people I have ever had the pleasure to read...and suddenly there is a mood here that is very unpleasant due to a troll. THe best thing you can do with a troll is ban him if you have IP blocking. If you don't, the next best thing is to totally ingore the rude poster. I hope there is some value to the links I posted.

http://www.flayme.com/troll/

Why do trolls do it?

I believe that most trolls are sad people, living their lonely lives vicariously through those they see as strong and successful.

Disrupting a stable newsgroup gives the illusion of power, just as for a few, stalking a strong person allows them to think they are strong, too.

For trolls, any response is 'recognition'; they are unable to distinguish between irritation and admiration; their ego grows directly in proportion to the response, regardless of the form or content of that response.

Trolls, rather surprisingly, dispute this, claiming that it's a game or joke; this merely confirms the diagnosis; how sad do you have to be to find such mind-numbingly trivial timewasting to be funny?

Remember that trolls are cowards; they'll usually post just enough to get an argument going, then sit back and count the responses (Yes, that's what they do!).

How can troll posts be recognised?

~ No Imagination - Most are frighteningly obvious; sexist comments on nurses' groups, blasphemy on religious groups .. I kid you not.
~ Pedantic in the Extreme - Many trolls' preparation is so thorough, that while they waste time, they appear so ludicrous from the start that they elicit sympathetic mail - the danger is that once the group takes sides, the damage is done.
~ False Identity - Because they are cowards, trolls virtually never write over their own name, and often reveal their trolliness (and lack of imagination) in the chosen ID. As so many folk these days use false ID, this is not a strong indicator on its own!
~ Crossposting - Any post that is crossposted to several groups should be viewed as suspicious, particularly if unrelated or of opposing perspective. Why would someone do that?
~ Off-topic posting - Often genuine errors, but, if from an 'outsider' they deserve matter-of-fact response; if genuine, a brief apposite response is simply netiquette; if it's a troll post, you have denied it its reward.
~ Repetition of a question or statement is either a troll - or a pedant; either way, treatment as a troll is effective.
~ Missing The Point - Trolls rarely answer a direct question - they cannot, if asked to justify their twaddle - so they develop a fine line in missing the point.
~ Thick or Sad - Trolls are usually sad, lonely folk, with few social skills; they rarely make what most people would consider intelligent conversation. However, they frequently have an obsession with their IQ and feel the need to tell everyone. This is so frequent, that it is diagnostic! Somewhere on the web there must be an Intelligence Test for Trolls - rigged to always say "above 150"

Longtime Lurker, you are right and I did ban the IP number however it would seem they have more than one and still keep popping up. Thank you for the links and you can be sure I will be refering to them often and thanks for "lurking"

LongtimeLurker, choosing now to pop out of lurking is more than appreciated. Which site do you moderate if you're willing to say. What drives me wild is the maleability of our minds to all of it, MSM, trolls (zombies), shadow suggestions. I swear it's lifted out of Orwell's 1984 which I haven't read since I was 17. (re-reading it now) Orwell KNEW..rethug handbook. How did this man know..how could someone born in 1903 know all this?

Sally, Clinton's about to hit some rough going in Feb.. Somehow her & Bill's chart just don't look like they're going to the WH. Then again, neither did GWpinhead's.

Actually Claudia, I was going to ask you the very same questions: 1, exactly what did Mumin say to you that prevented you from earning a living? Did he send repeated abusive emails? How many? One? Two? And over what span of time? 2. How do you know that this woman you keep mentioning is indeed in league with Mumin? What manner of proof do you have to that effect, that would make any competent judge rule in your favor?

3, and I've said this over and over, I don't know the man, but I defend the principle of folks having a defense, especially when they aren't there to defend themselves. Believe it or not, if I were in another venue and you were being attacked in such a way I would defend you. So this isn't personal in the least as it apparently is with you, another reason why your case is quite frankly, weak.

Unless you can prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Mumin is indeed behind a harassment campaign designed to impede your career, all you'll be doing is wasting the court's time and money, which can and should be spent on cases where things really do matter. Maybe you should go to law school? Then you wouldn't have to throw around empty threats. Just my two cents.

Marta, its interesting that you would say that conservatives are inherently mean etc., when a similar case could be made with regard to liberals. Personally I've found my fair share of mean and repugnant people in both camps, neither has the lock on nastiness, as quite a few here in this forum attest to.

One thing I have found though, is that liberals tend to use profanity a lot more than do conservatives. I'm sure someone will make a rationalization for that, and it doesn't matter to me *why* they do it, just noting that they seem to do so more than folks on the conservative side is all I'm saying.

Why am I here? Again, I'm here because I do enjoy many of the informative links from (non-astrological in the main) websites, articles and op/eds etc. I think they provide a good bit of balance, and I then check in with other spots on the web, etc, and then come to my own conclusion about things.

And I'm here because I believe our world is far too polarized for its own good. We need more dialogue than mere cheerleading. Both sides have legitimate points. And its much easier to get in a room filled with only those who agree with you, than a room with a healthy mix of folks who don't......and you have to convince them to come to the middle. I hear lots of the former here, and almost none of the latter. If the left truly wishes to win, they will need to get good at winning the center, which is why I keep bringing up Bill Clinton, the only Democratic President of the modern era. He won for a very good reason, see all those planets in Libra and a Libra rising. Trying to preach to the "base" won't work for the left because they aren't big enough or organized enough, and what little they do have tends to alienate folks, not bring them to their cause. You guys are astrologers, many of you pros, you'd think you would know this stuff already LOL.

As for Mumin, again I don't know him, just his work, and he's good at what he does. I don't agree with all his personal views, etc., but I defend his right to say them. Moreover I defend his right not to be censored, its not conditional based on whether he's on the "right" (or left) team or not. If I'm in a venue where Sally or Claudia are being personally attacked I would defend them as well.

And that's the interesting thing to me here, that no one actualy attacked the man's arguments, they attacked the man in an attempt to discredit, by association, the argument he makes. Such a thing is textbook Logic 101, what's known as a logical fallacy (and would also be inadmissiable in a courtroom in case Claudia is reading along:) ), and makes the argument being made by the detractors look about as strong as a house of cards. Not liking someone isn't a good enough reason to dismiss an argument. You have to be able to dismantle the argument by showing its flaws in terms of reason and logic. Note how Sally, Claudia or anyone else here (didn't) addressed the comparison point with regard to the Patriot Act and VAWA, which Mumin makes.

I haven't said anything insulting to or about Sally or Claudia, I don't know either of them to do so. My comments were confined to the subjects at hand. Simply put, I'm not going to be a cheerleader, I am going to ask those who are questions to se how strong their argument is. If the left realy wants to win they need to learn how to think, not emote. in this regard I hope Sally truly does take my comments regarding her plans to write a book under advisement.

As for my own political affiliation, I voted for Gore in 2000. I voted for Bush in 2004. I voted for Clinton twice. I've voted for Democrats quite a number of times over the years. But I vote on the issue, not the party or the person.

Gilgamesh, I respect your opinion, but we respectuflly disagree. I hop we can respect each other on this score and move forward.

Trolls- I think it's obvious they are over compensating for having tiny wee wee's. The longer the post, the smaller the.... well you get the idea
LOL

Trolls- I think it's obvious they are over compensating for having tiny wee wee's. The longer the post, the smaller the.... well you get the idea
LOL

sorry for the double posy everyone, Merc retor, etc. just ignore Michael the Troll, he always leaves evnetually. The more you engage him the more this board will beclogged with his lengthy pendantic tomes

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http://www.74yy.cn/2007/duibuqiwodezuiai/3103/ 对不起我的最
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wobushinizuiaidenvren/2868/ 我不是你最爱
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yuanfen/3323/ 缘份
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/heniyiyang/3966/ 和你一样
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/ciyuan/2871/ 刺缘
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/woshimingxing/4827/ 我是明星
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/laogongpklaopo/5413/ 老公pk老婆
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/shuishuonichangdebushihenmei/3077/ 谁说你长得不
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/babadecaoxie/4510/ 爸爸的草鞋
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/zhuxian-wohuilai/3253/ 诛仙-我回来
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/shijieqingkanzhuowo/5086/ 世界请看着我
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/lutaiwan/4598/ 路太弯
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/diyiciweinihezui/3390/ 第一次为你喝
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aideqixian/4840/ 爱的期限
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/dielianhua/3393/ 蝶恋花
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/changyinkuaile/4761/ 畅饮快乐
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wobupei/5099/ 我不配
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/qingguoqingcheng/3661/ 倾国倾城
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/liulangxiongdi/2898/ 流浪兄弟
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aishangnishiyizhongzuiguo/2872/ 爱上你是一种
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/RISE(qi)/3960/ RISE(崛
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/zhuifengdehaizi/4793/ 追风筝的孩子
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/meihuasannong/5050/ 梅花三弄
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/tongshoutongjiao/3918/ 同手同脚
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http://www.74yy.cn/2007/La_La_La/5353/ La_La_
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/tewuJ/4712/ 特务J
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/In My Arms/5064/ In My
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yongyuandenadamu/4873/ 永远的那达慕
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xiaoxinai/4871/ 小心爱
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/posuidexin/3129/ 破碎的心
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http://www.74yy.cn/2007/shashou/3732/ 杀手
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http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yonghengdehuhuan/4704/ 永恒的呼唤
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http://www.74yy.cn/2007/ruguonishiwoyanzhongdeyidilei/5183/ 如果你是我眼
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http://www.74yy.cn/2007/jiekou/3593/ 借口
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http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wangjibixiangaigengkunnan/4188/ 忘记比相爱更
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http://www.74yy.cn/2007/tahuitiwojixuaini/3444/ 他会替我继续
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aidexinkuqueyexingfu/2961/ 爱的辛苦却也
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/fenghuanghuayoukai/4666/ 凤凰花又开
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wojieyi/3855/ 我介意
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/dongting/3396/ 动听
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/womendemengxiang/4009/ 我们的梦想
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/seqingnannv/3574/ 色情男女
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/niguodehaoma/4024/ 你过得好吗
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/nengbunengyongganshuoai/4627/ 能不能勇敢说
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/tiantangkou/4179/ 天堂口
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/nanrenbudong/3739/ 男人不懂
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/qiannianliange/4634/ 千年恋歌
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aishangyangcong/5079/ 爱上洋葱
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/taiyoucai/3818/ 太有才
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/leiganyihouwobuku/3293/ 泪干以后我不
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/mengxiangdewutai2008/3014/ 梦想的舞台2
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/feixueqiannian/5425/ 飞雪·千年
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/haoshichengshuang/4760/ 好事成双
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/biewen/4923/ 别问
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xinbuliaoqing/3087/ 新不了情
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aidetaisha/3601/ 爱的太傻
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xiaoshouladashou/3041/ 小手拉大手
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/leiliao/3869/ 累了
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/baiyueguang/3569/ 白月光
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aiqingsanbubuqu/5432/ 爱情三不部曲
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wuyuetian/3473/ 五月天
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/chuanshuo/3078/ 传说
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/woshiyizhiniu/4172/ 我是一只牛
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xiaoqingge/3199/ 小情歌
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/tanbai/4669/ 坦白
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/kuailetonghua/4077/ 快乐童话
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yongtanqu/4901/ 咏叹曲
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/buxurewoshengqi/3328/ 不许惹我生气
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/longtuteng/4006/ 龙图腾
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/bunengshuodemimi/3984/ 不能说的秘密
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/mengyou/2904/ 梦游
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xianggebuting/5354/ 想个不停
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xiangaiderenruciduo/4857/ 相爱的人如此
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/chongdongshimogui/5077/ 冲动是魔鬼
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yushangnishiwodeyuan/4747/ 遇上你是我的
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/kechuanqingren/5078/ 客串情人
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aijiushini/4057/ 爱就是你
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/zhuiluotianshi/2842/ 坠落天使
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/hongqunbai/3472/ 红裙摆
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/siliaodubumai/3286/ 死了都不卖
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/diandengdan/3391/ 电灯胆
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yidapiantiankong/4621/ 一大片天空
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xiangtaiduo/5056/ 想太多
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aiqingwansui/2855/ 爱情万岁
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/gudezuoer/2972/ 梵谷的左耳
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/Gdadiaodebeishang/4091/ G大调的悲伤
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/chuanyueshikongdeaiqing/4155/ 穿越时空的爱
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yuci/5449/ 鱼刺
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/buzhichu/4926/ 不知处
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aizouyuan/3045/ 爱走远
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/hulue/3861/ 忽略
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/hongyanweishuihong/3269/ 红颜为谁红
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/biezaidawodianhua/5405/ 别再打我电话
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/qinglong/2942/ 情笼
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yueniao/5051/ 月朦胧鸟朦胧
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/chenyuluoyan/3409/ 沉鱼落雁
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/manjiedushijimodepengyou/4203/ 满街都是寂寞
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/hualei/3799/ 花泪
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/zuichangdedianying/5102/ 最长的电影
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wobushiliyuchun/4983/ 我不是李宇春
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/ruguoaiqingkeyilunhui/3775/ 如果爱情可以
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yiwanniandubugou/4972/ 一万年都不够
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/haoting/3267/ 好听
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xinwo/4614/ 新窝
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/ruguoniyetingshuo/4199/ 如果你也听说
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/qiyuedeyitian/4985/ 七月的一天
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yongyouniderizi/4113/ 拥有你的日子
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xiatiandelanghua/3947/ 夏天的浪花
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xinrenxiao/4324/ 新人笑
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/liuyanyouyiqianfenbei/4438/ 流言有一千分
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/shangxinqingge/4615/ 伤心情歌
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/when i m with you/5420/ when i
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/taohuayuan/4940/ 桃花源
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/bingfeixiaji/3421/ 冰飞夏季
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/hexianlidemimi/5071/ 和弦里的秘密
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wananbaobei/3723/ 晚安，宝贝
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yueliangerwanwan/3318/ 月亮儿弯弯
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/mumaren/2958/ 牧马人
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/chuangqianwuyueguang/5374/ 床前无月光
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/zaishuiyifang/5052/ 在水一方
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/quaiba/4856/ 去爱吧
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xiangxinaiqing/4916/ 相信爱情
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/ruhelikaini/3821/ 如何离开你
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/2008/5164/ 2008
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xiongdi/4994/ 兄弟
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wuzideqingpi/4899/ 无字的情批
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/nishuo/5031/ 你说
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/shengmingdetiaozhan/5177/ 生命的挑战
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/bujianmiandepengyou/3705/ 不见面的朋友
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/qiannian/4973/ 千年
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wohuainiande/2967/ 我怀念的
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/mamawohenhao/3707/ 妈妈我很好
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/shuishishuideshui/3596/ 谁是谁的谁
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/mengzhongdehunli/3330/ 梦中的婚礼
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aihenjiandan/2862/ 爱很简单
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/shuangrenchuangyigerenshui/3456/ 双人床一个人
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/nibuhuizhidao/5096/ 你不会知道
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/lanyanjing/3831/ 蓝眼睛
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yibeijieyibei/3647/ 一杯接一杯
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xihaiqingge/3481/ 西海情歌
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/We are the world/4867/ We are
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/panpasizhiwu/5282/ 潘帕斯之舞
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/huanji/3447/ 换季
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xiangfengyiyangziyou/2907/ 像风一样自由
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/muou/4069/ 木偶
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aideshizhe/5168/ 爱的使者
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xingfubeihou/3578/ 幸福背后
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/zhanguoshidai/5346/ 战国时代
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/chaoyue/3505/ 超越
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/guanggunhaoku/5389/ 光棍好苦
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/cuoguodeqingren/4266/ 错过的情人
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/rangwoqunuan/4920/ 让我取暖
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wushenlun/5149/ 无神论
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/nibushiyigeren/3405/ 你不是一个人
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xiangnian/4086/ 想念
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/2007gaisideaiqing/4951/ 2007该死
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aishangshui/5016/ 爱上谁
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/tongmeng/3714/ 童梦
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/dage/3467/ 大哥
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/nvhaibieku/5254/ 女孩别哭
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/burangnizou/5030/ 不让你走
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aibudongshi/4997/ 爱不懂事
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/huaiyuwang/2849/ 坏欲望
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/buranniyaowozenmeyang/3161/ 不然你要我怎
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/shuoniaiwo/3898/ 说你爱我
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/Miss You/3489/ Miss Y
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/qianqianai/3649/ 浅浅爱
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/danfei/3776/ 单飞
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/nishibushiwodeqingren/4066/ 你是不是我的
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/zuiaixiaoderen/4331/ 最爱笑的人
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/kuailenansheng/4167/ 快乐男声
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/zhaobuzhuobei/4239/ 找不着北
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/Lovin You/3278/ Lovin
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/sanguolian/3058/ 三国恋
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/danxiangdeai/5017/ 单向的爱
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/lvsexinqing/5231/ 绿色心情
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/cuoliaozaicuo/3419/ 错了再错
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/dongwo/3394/ 懂我
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/meidangnibaozhuowo/4783/ 每当你抱着我
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/meilidecaoyuanwodejia/5023/ 美丽的草原我
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/lige/3934/ 离歌
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/shanghaiwawa/2968/ 上海娃娃
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/buxiayujiuchutaiyangba/4922/ 不下雨就出太
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/likainiwodedaoyipiansenlin/4503/ 离开你我得到
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wangzi/3454/ 王子
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xichudongfang/2959/ 戏出东方
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xingfushishime/5197/ 幸福是什么
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/gaibianziji/4070/ 改变自己
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aiguo/5040/ 爱过
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yinman/2860/ 隐瞒
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/luohuadechuangtai/4240/ 落花的窗台
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wodejiaoaowukejiuyao/3722/ 我的骄傲无可
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yerenzhiai/3678/ 野人之爱
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wode88gepengyou/5283/ 我的88个朋
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/meitianniannisansibian/5440/ 每天念你三四
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/buwanzhengdexuanlv/4076/ 不完整的旋律
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/nijiaoshimemingzi/3204/ 你叫什么名字
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aishangnizheyangdenvren/4151/ 爱上你这样的
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aiqingdeziwei/3856/ 爱情的滋味
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/zuowolaopohaobuhao/5365/ 做我老婆好不
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xunzhao/5167/ 寻找
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/Prison Break Theme/5483/ Prison
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wenroudemaofan/3413/ 温柔的冒犯
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/shengmingzhiguang/4550/ 生命之光
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/youliaoai/2866/ 有了爱
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yiye/4511/ 一夜
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/tingjianliaoai/4018/ 听见了爱
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/piaopiao/5357/ 飘飘
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/putongpengyou/5151/ 普通朋友
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yedefangxiang/5018/ 夜的方向
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/quanshijiezhiyouwoaini/4156/ 全世界只有我
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/danglaoshubuzaiaidami/3353/ 当老鼠不再爱
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yanghe2008/4592/ 浏阳河200
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/ximeng/3055/ 戏梦
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/tixianmuou/3037/ 提线木偶
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/jiemaozaitiaowu/4667/ 睫毛在跳舞
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/babamama/2923/ 爸爸妈妈
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/fengling/3860/ 风铃
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/tiantiande/5101/ 甜甜的
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/jinwuShow/5246/ 劲舞Show
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yanmei/4629/ 淹没
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/youshoujiezhi/2983/ 右手戒指
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/N+1/3128/ N+1
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/die/4943/ 蝶
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/shidewoaita/4924/ 是的我爱她
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/dianranjiqing chuandimengxiang/3215/ 点燃激情 传
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yuanlaizhecaishizhendeni/3082/ 原来这才是真
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/cuoliao/4913/ 错了
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/woaiwodelaopo/3018/ 我爱我的老婆
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/fuqilian/4607/ 夫妻脸
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yiqiqufei/4001/ 一起去飞
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yigerendekulianggerendetian/4213/ 一个人的苦两
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wozhendexihuanni/3239/ 我真的喜欢你
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/keyibuliulei/3808/ 可以不留泪
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/zhutougege/4639/ 猪头哥哥
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yingzi/3303/ 影子
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/pusabaoyou/3668/ 菩萨保佑
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/ningjingxue/3170/ 宁静雪
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/bitiangenggao/4375/ 比天更高
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/zhenyujia/4855/ 真与假
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http://www.74yy.cn/2007/niwo/4989/ 你我
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/tianshizairenjian/3144/ 天使在人间
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http://www.74yy.cn/2007/fu/3495/ 福
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http://www.74yy.cn/2007/guanyu/2980/ 关于
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http://www.74yy.cn/2007/huanghun/3935/ 黄昏
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/Happy Go/4601/ Happy
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http://www.74yy.cn/2007/fengyutonglu/5252/ 风雨同路
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/sibendaoyueqiu/4248/ 私奔到月球
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/bulagezhilian/4600/ 布拉格之恋
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/nengbuneng/4673/ 能不能
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/Bad Girl/3906/ Bad Gi
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/weiaixiangqianpao/3993/ 为爱向前跑
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aimanyan/4725/ 爱蔓延
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yikuaiqian/4577/ 壹块钱
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/piaofuditie/5124/ 漂浮地铁
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/nanrenzongshiyaomiandui/4137/ 男人总是要面
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yuanfei/4680/ 远飞
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/banlu/4280/ 半路
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/So Good/3954/ So Goo
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/cankudewenrou/4270/ 残酷的温柔
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/My All/3892/ My All
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wodemeng/4647/ 我的梦
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/dengyoubingchizanzaishuoba/4443/ 等有饼吃咱再
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/jueduiqianjiu/4616/ 绝对迁就
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xiaomie/5214/ 消灭
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/YALTA/4404/ YALTA
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/Maria/5025/ Maria
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xuededaobie/4403/ 雪的道别
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/shiyuyuanwei/4035/ 事与愿违
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/fengeraqingnitingxialai/4119/ 风儿啊请你停
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wushuang/5242/ 无双
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wanmeiouxiang/5219/ 完美偶像
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/waitanshibahao/5127/ 外滩十八号
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/cike/4225/ 此刻
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/shashananhai/4040/ 傻傻男孩
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/A NEW DAY HAS COME/4485/ A NEW
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/nishiaiwode/4129/ 你是爱我的
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wangmingtianya/5456/ 亡命天涯
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/Passion/3248/ Passio
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/fengsijian/5147/ 风似剪
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/shijieyouniyouwo/5136/ 世界有你有我
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/mingxingdalianbing/3902/ 明星大练冰
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yueguanghuaduo/4265/ 月光花朵
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/jiexiaqiu/4399/ 阶下囚
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/zhiduoshao/5319/ 知多少
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xiaodaonizhuyuan/5398/ 笑到你住院
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/guoke/4571/ 过客
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wuliao/4345/ 无聊
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/diyifengqingshu/4660/ 第一封情书
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/ren/4329/ 仨人
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yimolan/4446/ 一抹蓝
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/I Believe/4508/ I Beli
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aiqinglailiao/4478/ 爱情来了
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/L-O-V-E/4341/ L-O-V-
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/lansebeike/4489/ 蓝色贝壳
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/sunziaiqingbingfa/5178/ 孙子爱情兵法
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/Dont Sail Away/4126/ Dont S
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/kuailedeshijiechenggongdeshiji/4096/ 快乐的世界成
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/huadie/4328/ 化蝶
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aifeiyouxi/4685/ 爱非游戏
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/henwang/5390/ 很忘
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/ooa/4532/ 哦咦哦咦啊
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/feichangyouxi/4164/ 非常有戏
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/feiniaohehua/4580/ 飞鸟和花
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/yi/4430/ 一
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/Baby Baby/4340/ Baby B
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/dantiao/4344/ 单挑
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/Big City/4127/ Big Ci
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/zhiji/4128/ 知己
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aiqingtuji/4420/ 爱情突击
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/waimiandeshijie/3991/ 外面的世界
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/mamadelaoqingge/4139/ 妈妈的老情歌
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xianliang/5367/ 贤良
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/gouliao/4321/ 够了
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/My Way/4722/ My Way
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/biewujieai/4312/ 别误解爱
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/2+1faze/4279/ 2+1法则
http://www.74yy.cn//daiwoquxunzhao/2993/ 带我去寻找
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/weiyideni/5203/ 唯一的你
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aizaiwangluo/4568/ 爱在网络
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/suan/4302/ 算
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xinjinggaibianhuanjing/5153/ 心境改变环境
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/ni/5160/ 你
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xiangyu/4417/ 潇湘雨
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/tiaoqiwulai/4135/ 跳起舞来
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/ribenrenjiushisha/5495/ 日本人就是傻
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/huisexingfu/5257/ 灰色幸福
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wobushihuangrongzhoubotongban/5493/ 我不是黄蓉周
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/laopoqingnifangliaowo/5497/ 老婆！请你放
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/wuyixingmian/4434/ 无一幸免
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/jingshenfenlie/4716/ 精神分裂
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xingfujielisai/5262/ 幸福接力赛
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/tashishui/5188/ 他是谁
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/Dream Party/4574/ Dream
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/liubuzhuni/4320/ 留不住你
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/fengji/5270/ 封禅祭
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/shashou@xu/4346/ 杀手@续
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/rangquanshijiedukandao/5191/ 让全世界都看
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/qianqianwen/5332/ 千千吻
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/tianmibailatu/4557/ 甜蜜柏拉图
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/xuanzhuanmen/5259/ 旋转门
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/YESTERDAY/5333/ YESTER
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/Listen to my heart/4556/ Listen
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/aiqinggongshi/5363/ 爱情公式
http://www.74yy.cn/2007/maliaopaidui/5265/ 玛利奥派对