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THE PROGRESSED SUN IN THE US CHART

THIS IS AN ARTICLE BY LYNN HAYES. VERY INTERESTING AND INFORMATIVE


Part I: 1945-1975

The progressed chart shows the evolution of the individual - although the natal chart, or birthchart, remains the same the progressed chart describes life changes that occur as we age and grow. The progressed Sun changes signs every 30 years, and the US Progressed Sun had been in Aquarius since April of 1975 following a stint in Capricorn. (Chart used is the US Sibley chart.)

The passage of the US Capricorn progressed Sun, from November 1945 through April 1975, beginning with the end of World War II and initiating a nationwide building period that expanded middle-class affluence throughout the country (unless you were African-American, but that's another story). The GI bill made housing affordable for more and more families, and communities of tract housing such as Levittown sprang up across the country, beginning the suburban sprawl that would ultimately increase our dependence on automobiles and foreign oil.

This building boom continued throughout the Capricorn period, resulting in the US producing most of the planet's steel, oil and automobiles. The British Prime Minister Edward Heath said that the US enjoyed "the greatest prosperity the world has ever known." As a result, there was an unprecedented degree of loyalty to the government (a Capricornian structure) that had presided over this prosperity.

All was not rosy, however; not all Americans shared in this abundance. The Capricorn period also brought about pressure from minorities desiring to share in the economic growth and the tragedy of the Vietnam war as the paternalism of the Capricorn influence drove the US to become the World Protector.

Just as we would expect with the progressed Sun in Capricorn - the sign of building, hard work, discipine and achievement; in Capricorn our nose goes directly to the grindstone and we seek symbols of our new status. But this period also saw the more difficult aspects of Capricorn: the burdens of growth, disappointment in the new system. In the mid to late 1950s, when the US progressed Sun opposed the Sun in the US chart, the seams of the new system were beginning to unravel as it became obvious that the achievements which some enjoyed were not available to all. This time marked the birth of the civil rights movement.

The Cold War was born under the influence of the Capricorn progressed Sun which resists inflammatory behavior and prefers instead to build monuments and defense structures of protection rather than act aggressively as a more fiery sign would do. Although this period marked several wars (most notably the Korean War and the Vietnam War), these wars were sold as wars of protection rather than aggression, and this period marked one of the biggest buildups of defense spending in American history.

Part II: The US Progressed Sun in Aquarius

The US progressed Sun left Capricorn for Aquarius in April of 1975. The Capricorn period in the US witnessed a huge post-war building boom and rise of social and economic status for many Americans, both Capricornian attributes. It also marked a more paternalistic relationship with the rest of the world as the US began to take on the role of world protector (Capricorn's ruler Saturn represents the dynamic of the father).

Usually when the progressed Sun moves from one sign to another there is a major shift since the adjoining signs are so different from each other in element and quality. This is less true of the shift from Capricorn to Aquarius, due to their mutual rulership by Saturn. In Aquarius the Saturnine duty and discipline takes place in the mental realm whereas Capricorn is a sign of action. Aquarius has an ancient ruler (Saturn) and a modern ruler (Uranus), and there is always a pull between these two influences. Uranus seeks to break apart the old structures that Saturn has built and create something new and this is the Aquarian challenge. In Aquarius the strong sense of responsibility that is Saturn's gift combines with a need for change, creating the famous Aquarian urge for social justice and equality.

As the US progressed Sun shifted into Aquarius, the last soldiers were airlifted out of Vietnam which marked the end of military involvement in that nation. The Watergate scandal had just ended with the conviction of four Nixon administration officials. As Jimmy Carter says, there was a malaise in the country as could be expected under a dual Saturn rulership.

The Uranus rulership is associated with technology, and the first computers were developed in the US when the P Sun shifted into Aquarius. The first supercomputer was designed in 1976, and both Microsoft and Apple had their beginnings in that year. And although the Uranus/Pluto conjunction in the mid-1960s had fanned the revolutionary flames of social justice, by the mid-1970s there was a growing nationwide acceptance of equal rights for women and minorities. 1975 was designated Year of the Woman, and Time Magazine chose American Women for their person of the year. Critic Elizabeth Janeway wrote: "The sky above us lifts, the light pours in. No maps exist for this enlarged world. We must make them as we explore." This last image is particularly Aquarian - a completely new dimension of life's experience.

Meanwhile, the bigoted individual in the form of Archie Bunker became a target for derision in the TV show "All in the Family" as cultural norms begin to shift to a larger culture of acceptance and

The rebelliousness inherent in social revolution created some casualties, however; divorce rates soared as individuals struggled to find themselves (an Aquarian ideal) in the hedonism of the 1970s. Hippie culture, originally a revolutionary act itself in the 1960s, became a marketable commodity as more and more Americans attempted to break out of the Capricorn box and live their own authentic life in accordance with the more Aquarian urge. That revolutionary fervor was reflected too in the rise of punk and heavy metal which loudly proclaimed the death of the status quo (more Aquarius).

In Hollywood technology and cultural transformation merged in the beginning of the Star Wars empire which hit the theaters in 1977. Aquarius urges us to reach beyond the limits of our ordinary life and experience a more multidimensional life, and Star Wars provided a vehicle for everyone to take that ride.

Social attitudes continue to ease throughout the 1980s and 1990s, with more and more acceptance of the rights of individuals of all types. Certainly there was a backlash against this growing tolerance with the rise of hate groups, but overall the need for "political correctness" grew in importance. Music was revolutionized by technology with the introduction of MTV and electronic music with radically new instruments and sounds. Later, in the 1990s, hip hop and rap music created another social revolution.

All of these trends continued to grow through the 1980s and 1990s, culminating at the end of the Aquarian period in 2004 when the progressed US Sun entered Pisces.

PART III: The Next 30 Years

The Sun of the US astrological chart progressed into Pisces on the exact day of the 2004 Presidential election. We saw in Part I and Part II how the progressed US Sun has brought major shifts in the attitudes and circumstances of the United States culture, and I expect this cycle to be no different.

Pisces is the last sign of the zodiac: it is the sign where we long to transcend the boundaries of ordinary reality and attain an experience of the beyond. For the devout this takes the form of a longing for god; for the atheist the transcendent experience may come through music. Some, such as Richard Dawkins, spend their whole lives fighting against the transcendent impulse within them. The darker expression of the Pisces impulse brings us into a state of confusion and delusion when reality becomes blurred and undefined. It is easier to look back and assign astrological significance than to predict the future, but let's see what we could see under the Pisces influence.

After the terrorist attacks of September 11, the US nation was united and strong in their resolve to battle the forces of darkness, but by the time the 2004 elections came about Americans were beginning to have doubts and that national resolve began to splinter. Just after the election Colin Powell resigned, the first chink in the Bush administration to fall. Pisces tends to obscure the truth, and suddenly the world appeared far less black and white.

The United States has become much more culturally diverse over the past 50 years, and under the Pisces influence racial identification will become much less defined and specific. We are already seeing this with the candidacy of Barack Obama, who is not white, not a black descendant of slaves - he defies categorization. There is a Muslim member of congress, and Latinos are gaining a foothold in the power and economic structures of the country. This trend towards a blurred national identity will continue under Pisces.

Pisces rules endings, and as the US entered its influence the Terry Schiavo case opened up a new debate on end-of-life issues. Sacrifice and redemption is associated with Pisces and Neptune, and controversies over birth and death will bring changes in the way our society looks at these transitions.

A true experience of the divine is what Pisces offers, and the movement out of dogmatic theology into a more authentic and transcendent experience will continue to be more and more important for Americans. Psychic experiences will become ever more accepted, as we are seeing even now in our major media. The television show "Medium" premiered in January of 2005, just after the US progressed Sun moved into Pisces, and was the first of many such shows that came afterwards. The darker side of Pisces could lead some into a well of confusion and deception, however, as the yearning for the divine can combine with the urge for self-sacrifice and atonement that we also find under Pisces and encourages some to leave their discrimination behind.

The sacrificial urge can also be expressed in a higher form through benevolent compassion and nonviolence as prescribed in the Buddhist religions, and we will likely to see a spread of these congregations throughout the US. Pisces bestows empathy and a desire to understand the plights of others which could lead to increased understanding between various social and religious groups. This growing empathy could lead to a greater sensitivity to environmental issues as well, and perhaps the urge for martyrdom and redemption will encourage the kind of conservation that can help preserve the earth's resources.

Music is associated with Pisces, and I would expect new forms of music to enter popular culture in the US. Fantasy films are likely to become even more popular for adults as well as children; eight out of the ten top grossing films in 2005 were fantasy films.

The next 30 years could mark a weakening of US global power. Pisces is not a sign of action or strength, and it can be difficult to achieve enough focus and energy under the Pisces influence to be able to effect real change. In addition, the US progressed Mars turned retrograde back in the summer of 2006 which many astrologers believe to be the end of US global domination. It will be difficult for Americans to unite behind a common purpose under the Pisces influence and we are likely to see a fragmentation in the government, particularly with transiting Pluto entering Capricorn and then squaring Uranus in Aries in 2010-2013.

The cycle of the zodiac marks a natural evolution and progression, and each transition is equally important and the next 30 years will bring a crucial phase for the evolution of the United States. Only time will tell exactly how that will manifest!!


Please visit Lynn's web site at
http://www.astrodynamics.net/Articles/US-Progressed-Sun.htm and you will discover a real treasure trove.

Sally Cheyne McDonald on Sep 16 | Link
Comments

Sally-thank you for this wonderful essay on the US progressed sun. Really!! It is so helpful to be reminded of the of the march of the Sun King and how that shapes and forms our focus and interests.

Posted by: clymela on September 16, 2007 04:49 PM

I'm banking on your more positive interpretation for our US Sun's sojourn through Pisces, Lynn. Certainly inspires some hope.

Here's a brief article where integrity and rock-solid ethics (from a past era, sad to say) shine brilliantly. I think I'll buy the book to read, of course, but also to say "Yes!" to what we once were as a nation--and to which I pray we can return.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/16/102858/724

Posted by: shylurker on September 16, 2007 05:05 PM

I read the article, and found it deep and fascinating-and resonant with history.

Posted by: Carol on September 17, 2007 05:39 AM

Shylurker , thanks for posting the dailykos article about Thomas Dodd, Chris Dodd's Father. It made me want to sign up on their blog for a comment.
Thomas Dodd was censured for misuse of campaign funds in the 70's. But he ran against Prescot Bush in the 50's.............he probably KNEW at that time what the stakes were!
Then there was the young idiot who posted: WWII was a long time ago, time to drop it!" Moran! It still had an effect on MY LIFE, AND I'm still here! Stick his head in a gameboy, & don't let him out!
This article by Lynne Hayes is VERY enlightening!
During the USA sun in Cap was when I ran a successful business.
Aquarius sun supported the rise of all those non-profits, making individual capitalism,
Hayes says.............
"Social attitudes continue to ease throughout the 1980s and 1990s, with more and more acceptance of the rights of individuals of all types. Certainly there was a backlash against this growing tolerance with the rise of hate groups, but overall the need for "political correctness" grew in importance."
This was NOT my experience thru the 90's.........
My perception: Political correctness superceeded the ability to look next door and see there was suppor eneded there. It all went to the tribes in the 3rd world countries hell with Americans! ( unless they had breast cancer!)
USA sun in Pisces? forgetaboutit! They can't see the tip of their nose thru the fog.
Essentially my town was raped by ABC Extreme House Takeover last week, with the ONLY beneficiaries being the family with the new house! There were a lot of letters to the paper which were mischaracterized, as jealousy: I think it was more outrage due to injustice. I hope it was an eye opener, up close and personal to the workings of the "CORPORATION" against the individual!
Yes it is only one town but a microcosm of the USA I believe ( with variations)
I guess the direction to work toward, is educating people toward "thoughtful" sacrifice rather than the zombielike sheeple movements that seem to be prevelant now! A lot to think about
QOP

Posted by: on September 17, 2007 11:59 AM

I'm sitting inspired by this concise, compact, yet sweeping overview of the progressed Sun in the US chart. Applying the higher energy of Pisces to the earth and her inhabitants as a whole may usher in an awakening to the absolute ridiculousness of using our religious affiliations to define our holiness. Dissolving our rigid adherance to absolutes is necessary to that awakening. More, those who wield ungodly power under the guise of goodness could be held up to a more penetrating light of truth.

As QOP stated. . .there is a lot to think about.

Posted by: karen on September 17, 2007 02:12 PM

Then there's this!
Anthrax Coverup: A Government Insider Speaks Out

By Steve Watson

Francis A. Boyle, an international law expert who worked under the first Bush Administration as a bioweapons advisor in the 1980s, has said that he is convinced the October 2001 anthrax attacks that killed five people were perpetrated and covered up by criminal elements of the U.S. government. The motive: to foment a police state by killing off and intimidating opposition to post-9/11 legislation such as the USA PATRIOT Act and the later Military Commissions Act.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1819437
AND THIS>....................................
http://scoop.epluribusmedia.org/story/2007/9/16/121924/818
Alan Greenspan belongs to the Club of Emasculated Moderate Elites who enabled corporate theocrats to destroy the American Dream at home and annihilate our moral authority abroad. A prerequisite for membership is to first allow crazy ideologues to exploit their prestige and later disown the disastrous policies their reputations facilitated. Former Secretary of State Colin Powell is a charter member of this club and a pathetic figure who criticizes the Bush Administration about Iraq when it no longer matters. Powell's domestic policy soul mate, Alan Greenspan, joined him with his new memoir, The Age of Turbulence: Adventures In a New World.
Seems a lot is rolling out of the eclipse!
QOP

Posted by: on September 17, 2007 02:24 PM

If I could tag along with QOP's news articles, and referring to Cap'n Sally's prediction that it'll just keep coming and keep coming, quite a bit more rolled out over the weekend and into this morning. Greenspan's new book sez the war was based on lies (Do Tell!), ex-Presidente Fox also disses The Decider in his new book, Iraq has decided to throw Blackwater out of the country, The Decider had to blink and announced a nominee for Attorney General that Schumer had recommended, Kindasleazy and another woman jointly own the house they live in, and the stall Craig occupied during the airport incident is now a hot tourist attraction. And it goes on and on.

Posted by: shylurker on September 17, 2007 02:42 PM

Here's an interesting article. Hope it can get Blackwater expelled from Iraq, but I doubt it.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070917/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

Posted by: Crystal on September 17, 2007 03:50 PM

A wonderfully stimulating article Lynn and thank you so much for your contribution. The years that Neptune transits Pisces will or should wash away some of the chafe from the religions, even though there will be another rise in ideology. I've been wondering about that possibility. In the late 1820's to 1850 as the progressed Sun traversed Virgo and conjuncted the US Neptune there was a rise in the traveling preachers and by the mid 1840's the bible was being used to justify slavery. Again in the mid 1900's during WWI and the devestating world wide plague followed by the depression and WWI, the progressed Sun was in Sagittarius, as well as transiting Neptune in Virgo part of that time, and another religious fervor marked by tent and revivial meetings across the country rose up, marking the US as the most religious of countries and seeding the far right religious fanatics we see today.

With the US progressed Mars retrograde until 2086 (a loss of ambition and desire for war, as well as losing wars in which the country engages) and progressed Sun in Pisces with transiting Neptune soon to join inside of Pisces, perhaps we will find a new way of spiritual expression as opposed to hating the other. That's a lovely thought

Posted by: Sally on September 17, 2007 05:09 PM

Sally, thank you for your inquisitive, brilliant and refreshing openness when it comes to "taking a peek" down the pike.
Lynn is right in her clear rejection of the doom and gloom so prevelent on other sites, such a disempowering habit when WE are the ones shaping the future, which is "unborn".
Re the progressed sun in pisces, didja' know the repuke party has also reached it's progressed Full Moon at the u.s. prog chart sun at 4-5pisces, and the dem party (no prizes for them either at this point) has just entered their New Moon 28 year cycle.
One thing I've noticed in this new pattern of "mutables" are the sharp turns afforded by saturn, then saturn/mars in '08 opposing the u.s. progressed 4-5degree pisces sun. we're having one right now.
It's all about being sharp and on-the-spot, grabbing the wheel from the gassy gremlins with each false move.
It's California correcting statewide voting corruption as we write. It's summoning forces of Progressives to obliterate the Bluedogs and their undermining of the dem party. It's realizing language is tricky: the common assumption of Hillary as nominee, when this is nothing more than programming the minds of the public 18months ago when Newsweek touted her as "The Phenomenon" (Murdoch) when in reality she is chronically flatlined in popularity....smell gassy rotten eggs?
We early aries will be the canaries in the coalmine when the uranus/pluto square happens, and we can be assured of a counter-reaction to our rebellious ways. Since mars rules the natal 4th house of the u.s. and its retro back to the arms of saturn in the 10th suggest we have a full-fledged torch & pitchfork revolution scheduled for 2016 when the u.s. progressed mercury goes direct in aquarius and heads once again to the 27-degree natal u.s. moon in late aquarius.

Have had to lurk because of my time, but this is irresistable! Sally, blessings on you and your recent precious poignancies with your daughter and her babies..so happy they are well..blessings on each one of you!
Morgana, I hope your husband makes a full and fast recovery..love and protection is everything, and our intrinsic lifeline to one another is a golden glowing comforting palm of our hand where you can rest and be snug. ((((hubby&Morgana))))).
And thank you for your richly beautiful contributions!

Posted by: patb on September 17, 2007 06:21 PM

"...revolution scheduled for 2016 when the u.s. progressed mercury goes direct in aquarius and heads once again to the 27-degree natal u.s. moon in late aquarius."

I meant that our minds will steadily persue a oneness of mind with emotion as a people. All the while challenged by 8th house cancerian denials to the 3rd house mercury and our freedom of speech, "staying awake" while Big Brother messes with our clarity with this now too-familiar capsizing mismatch with what we know is real.
The gift is the truth and rediscovering goodness as our bottomline.

Posted by: patb on September 17, 2007 06:41 PM

OK, everyone who's surprised to learn about this delay, please raise your hands.

Remember those nukes that went on a joy-ride and the report that was supposed to be completed by Sep 14th (and wasn't)? Well, it will be weeks yet before there will be a report.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1826820

Posted by: shylurker on September 17, 2007 07:50 PM

PatB, bless you for bringing up Mercury our little tell all planet. It is right now in an inconjunct to the US Mercury, more trash from the last 13 years bubbling up. I've been watching this retrograde motion for years now and feel that when it does go direct and passes over the US Moon in Aquarius (just at the time that transiting Uranus sextiles the US Moon in Aquarius) there will be a big shift to the feminine and to a more universal connected outlook. I've missed your posts, I expect others have as well. Hope your "busy" has been a good thing.

Posted by: Sally on September 17, 2007 08:45 PM

Sally, I've missed all of you too. Life's giving me a butt-kicking here on the edge. It's all about giant gov't thises and thats with blooming interest rates saying I owe fantastical amts. of cash based on generosity to themselves, and a empty-headed abusive 'boss' I'd like to quit and give him a piece of my mind. Worries, worries. Wah, wah! Otherwise, my boy and I are great company for one another. Bought scrumptious mums in every color of the rainbow, 'cept blue of course (smirk).

Re the merc retro-ing to the befuddlement of transiting neptune, still I think we'll not have to wait for the transit to the u.s. moon, but rather when it goes direct. The aquarius eclipse series begins in 2-08 to enliven us and our hopes. Lest we forget the alignment of 2009-10 featuring Neptune, Jupiter and Chiron to our moon July '09!
At the very least this may bring us free internet!
What do you think of this one, Sally? It falls on venus/pallas 27-28 aq in my own chart in the 5th/11th axis.

Posted by: patb on September 18, 2007 01:24 AM

Oh, and heh. I'm another one of those "no earth" people watching with disbelief as the sharks circle in for the kill. I don't understand money, I don't understand that type of greed. Feel like the kid getting knocked down by bullies who stole my bike.

Posted by: patb on September 18, 2007 02:37 AM

Hi all, I've been lurking for some time ... haven't been the mood to post. Don't know if anyone has seen this movie, Zeitgeist. It's worth the watch and spells out the plan (for us and the rest of the world). If the link doesn't work, just google "Zeitgeist, the movie".

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331

Posted by: Marta on September 18, 2007 02:55 AM

Now this is some serious exposure.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/17/1411235

The Shock Doctrine: Naomi Klein on the Rise of Disaster Capitalism

Economist Milton Friedman once said, "Only a crisis produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. " Naomi Klein examines some of what she considers the most dangerous ideas -- Friedmanite economics -- and exposes how catastrophic events are both extremely profitable to corporations and have also allowed governments to push through what she calls "disaster capitalism."

Klein writes in the introduction to "The Shock Doctrine" that "The history of the contemporary free market was written in shocks." She argues that "Some of the most infamous human rights violations of the past thirty-five years, which have tended to be viewed as sadistic acts carried out by anti-democratic regimes, were in fact either committed with the deliberate intent of terrorizing the public or actively harnessed to prepare the ground for the introduction of radical free-market reforms."

More...

Posted by: Pat C on September 18, 2007 04:07 AM

Pat C, excellent article, did you read it yourself? Outstanding work and Amy Goodman is so good with those interviews.

Marta, thanks for posting Zeitgeist, I have seen it before, but for those of you who haven't, it offers a picture of pulling those threads of confusion together and making the picture we have all been missing.

Pat B, with your Venus and Pallas falling at the 27/28 Aquarius point, with the US Moon and retrograde Mercury coming forward in 2016 conjunct the US Moon just following the 2020 Grand Conjunction of Jupiter/Saturn at 1 degree Aquarius, and Neptune there, (whew) I have to say that you will have something to do with the birthing or re-energizing of the feminine in the US. I don't know what you do, but you will somehow speak to the feminine, either through art, music, theater, writing, business leadership, spiritual - something.

Posted by: Sally on September 18, 2007 04:43 AM

No earth, huh Marta? Isn't it fun. Last night I was watching the Emmy's and Sally Field's speech, she was half way through and the music started coming up and she said "stop, I'm not done" and then she lost her place in her mind and couldn't remember what she was going to say and I thought "she doesn't have any earth." I looked her up and she indeed doesn't have any earth. It was the music, the distraction. Happens all the time to the no earth group particularly when we are nervous.

Posted by: Sally on September 18, 2007 04:48 AM

Both Benefics on earth....I almost became an accountant! Speaking of free internet, I've predicted for a while that regular dial-up will become so cheap that it will be an integral part of phone service like call-waiting. E-mail will come with a phone line. I've heard that Google is interested in internet service. And another option may well be advertiser-funded internet service. For putting up with occasional ads, perhaps free internet may not be a bad idea. Ads along the sidebar of the screen from time to time as we surf.

Posted by: Carol on September 18, 2007 11:47 AM

Sally, not only did I read it, but listened to it on the radio the same day. One of my local stations broadcasts Amy Goodman regularly.

Posted by: Pat C on September 18, 2007 12:39 PM

Sally, thanks a bunch for your response! This is in keeping with what I "do" as it pertains to my background in psychology & astrology, I have a few private clients and we get down together and they tell me how they always feel better afterwards. I feel the only thing that matters is this connection we all have. If you only knew!
We could yak for days! BTW I'm the one without the benefit of earth in my chart, in additon my aries sun falls in the 6th. I rarely talk about myself, look at this!
Re the Jup/Chiron/Nep conj was thinking about the one in '09-10.

Marta, that intro to the older version of Zeitgeist is the voice of my teacher Chogyam Trungpa. Just to hear him is like coming home.
He was my heart-friend. So modest and powerful at the same time, what we suspect is true, is true. He began talk to leaving the states to Nova Scotia as soon as Reagan became president.
Before Reagan was nominated I had a dream of a narrow dirt path with Reagan, Nancy, and elephant with a long entourage behind them in a celebratory mood. On both sides were high (100-ft) cement walls with broken glass embedded along the top. I was quite saddened by this dream and it hung over me, and remember wondering why politics mattered at all. It was an inescapeable intrusion to me, since I thought politics is nothing but a bunch of sh** anyway. Now look at us all!

Posted by: patb on September 18, 2007 03:26 PM

Sally, thanks a bunch for your response! This is in keeping with what I "do" as it pertains to my background in psychology & astrology, I have a few private clients and we get down together and they tell me how they always feel better afterwards. I feel the only thing that matters is this connection we all have. If you only knew!
We could yak for days! BTW I'm the one without the benefit of earth in my chart, in additon my aries sun falls in the 6th. I rarely talk about myself, look at this!
Re the Jup/Chiron/Nep conj was thinking about the one in '09-10.

Marta, that intro to the older version of Zeitgeist is the voice of my teacher Chogyam Trungpa. Just to hear him is like coming home.
He was my heart-friend. So modest and powerful at the same time, what we suspect is true, is true. He began talk to leaving the states to Nova Scotia as soon as Reagan became president.
Before Reagan was nominated I had a dream of a narrow dirt path with Reagan, Nancy, and elephant with a long entourage behind them in a celebratory mood. On both sides were high (100-ft) cement walls with broken glass embedded along the top. I was quite saddened by this dream and it hung over me, and remember wondering why politics mattered at all. It was an inescapeable intrusion to me, since I thought politics is nothing but a bunch of sh** anyway. Now look at us all!

Posted by: patb on September 18, 2007 03:26 PM

Carol, almost forgot. Re internet, we have a bigger problem captain with corporations hogging them up, and the FCC & the saggy old poop Murdoch throwing themselves on top of our toys.
Am thinking of overriding their influence ALTOGETHER being free with the newer technology outside of that oppressive effort to stuff the pipes and muffle our voices.
Fantastic to think the "air" and information that travels through it have no boundaries and they won't be able to control it! Goes through it like the bleepin' illusion it is!

Posted by: patb on September 18, 2007 03:43 PM

Pat C, Amy's interview with Naomi is just POWER-full. I admit to sitting here with tears. The disconnect with humanity is so disturbing, the manipulation so profound, the deprivation of character so evident it truly signifies what "hell" is. And it's right here.

Posted by: karen on September 18, 2007 03:55 PM

Karen this was posted on Starlight News

http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/short-film

Posted by: Pat C on September 18, 2007 04:19 PM

karen, it all goes together, doesn't it? How we stand together and defeat such aggressive overwhelming forces. How do we defeat these outer expressions of hatred against living things and this sacred world. Even in nature, the biggest, meanest and destructive intrude, take over gobbling up peace and happiness. How is it they exist at all? Most of all, how can we stop them. The suffering engendered by these limited beings is too widespread and must wipe themselves out. Perhaps nature herself will stop them. I'm counting on that.

Posted by: patb on September 18, 2007 04:50 PM

http://therealnews.com/web/index.php?thisdataswitch=0&thisid=429&thisview=item

Where does the Bush-Petraeus strategy lead?
Phyllis Bennis: The Bush objective is enduring occupation (1 of 4)

2007-09-18

"The existence of the permanent bases has been something constructed under the radar, without any attention being paid by the press... we know [of] at least 4 giant permanent bases, one in each quadrant of Iraq... These are small towns that are essentially being built up."

Phyllis Bennis is a senior analyst at the Institute for Policy Studies in Washington D.C. She is the author of Before and After: U.S. Foreign Policy and the September 11th Crisis and Challenging Empire: How People, Governments, and the UN Defy U.S. Power.

Posted by: Pat C on September 18, 2007 05:48 PM

Pat C, oh, they want to control us and the world alright. But we're not going to let them. The world won't let them. Nature won't let them.

U.S. gov't is so outrageously evil. Congress and the senate are clearly complicit in their inaction. Blackwater is exactly that, anti-life.

Consciousness is just about big enough to defeat them in the inevitable revolution to come. There will be sacrifice of people to the cause of life which is better than the cause of greed.

Posted by: patb on September 18, 2007 06:38 PM

AW meet Beehive.....................
Activist-artists create a collective Down East
By Emily Burnham

Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - Bangor Daily News
http://www.bangornews.com/news/t/lifestyle.aspx?articleid=154348&zoneid=14
Here is some positive input!
They loaned me the space to give the Teen Mural Workshop , when I was a VISTA in 2001. The stone mosaics they are working on are for the floor of the exibition hall at the Common Ground Fair.
Their political murals are truly amazing!
QOP

Posted by: on September 18, 2007 07:06 PM

Federal prosecutor from Florida is arrested in Detroit for hanky panky ( he is an US asst. DA)
Don't know how many like these crooks from top like Gonzalez to bottom, all corrupt in various fields and sleezy filled up by bushie administration!

Posted by: Raj on September 18, 2007 07:56 PM

Raj, hanky panky? I think purchasing a five year old girl for sex is way beyond the pale. Tasering students at FU is another assault on the people. This US assistant DA, wonder how he's going to survive general prisoner population, his biggest selling point to the under cover agent was that he did this all the time.

The Repug's seem to attract these guys.

Posted by: Morgana on September 19, 2007 12:37 AM

Authoritarianism isn't healthy. Repugs are presently the bad, bad daddy figure....in so many ways. There's a broad swath of people who firmly believe conservatism equals mental illness, and if this is conservatism, I agree. They are at least the worst CEOs ever.

Posted by: Pat C on September 19, 2007 01:43 AM

Here's a bit more info, Pat C:
http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/09/18/whos-looking-out-for-you/

Posted by: shylurker on September 19, 2007 02:28 AM

PatC, you're on to something pretty solid and abundantly proven re the conservative mind and mental illness. I mean, look! Anybody with such heavy handed views of christianity is just looking for a cover. A mask to stick on GIANT shadow issues. So many deviant sexual crimes.
So black & white in thinking. So unkind to themselves and others. An inability to empathize.
Heavyhanded adolescent beliefs and standards. Ever notice their faces often have that fake look of latex, a bit effeminate in appearance, excessively styled hair? Yet reject homosexuality outright and punish those who express themselves openly? (I'm really holding back some venom here since so many suffer at their hands).

A "normal" conservative usually has a better mixture of being firm in some areas and more generous in others. The ones that surround us now are sociopathic, sick individuals.

People like this BREAK DOWN since they can't maintain. And when they do that's liberation for the rest of us.

Posted by: patb on September 19, 2007 02:37 AM

I have said many times and believe it; Politics is society's career path for the psychopathic personality. My questions have always been, what part of the collective mind in us allows this kind of insanity to continue to exist decade after decade to the point that we accept it as normal.

Posted by: Sally on September 19, 2007 03:19 AM

Hillary has made few friends with her health care plan. This quote from her is amazing and will no doubt be revised. But, this thread, which has some good links, illustrates why much, much more is needed in a candidate for prez--particularly at this time:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1842813

Posted by: shylurker on September 19, 2007 12:50 PM

Politics, originated with INTELLECTUALS in Greece, and has degenerated into what it is today, with the grossest examples in the good old usa...so correct yourself there.
I recently met someone in London who said I am ocassionally mentioned here, and missed? Well I left the USA in April of 2006, and so glad to be out! The crazies who think Jesus is into war, and the naive who think Hillary should win, and that the problems are over in 2008 when Bush is out, are still enough to nauseate through cyberspace from afar, and I avoid it like the plague that it is.. Edwards I hope will pull through, but they will probably set him up with a Lieberman-style imposter vp if he gets close. I still believe the US voted for Gore and Kerry but deserved Bush, for believing Ralph couldn't win...see an Unreasonable Man...on dvd..today..I have a poem on my website about leaving..http://www.vivafontana1959.com

Posted by: Roxanne on September 19, 2007 12:52 PM

i've often wondered the same, Sally. And, asked the question to the universe. Yesterday, i seemed to get an answer. . .of sorts.

Waiting to see the chiropractor, i got to observe some of the others in the sitting room. What was different this time, was that i was observing from a sensory perception, that is noting energies. Later, after seeing the desperation, the impatience, and other energy-depleting behaviors, i understood one small part. Those "hooked" on an almost psychopathic desire for power need the energy of those who cede their lives and personal power to desperation.

This is only a very small part of a whole, and i'm sure AWers will expand on this. But, you have reminded us time and again, Sally, that it is HOW we express our energy that determines the quality of our lives. That has "stuck" with me. And, i remain ever so great-full for your observations which have become personal and expanding.

Posted by: karen on September 19, 2007 01:04 PM

Not acknowledging our shadows = blowback, hypocrisy. Why the xtians/fundies of all types are so repressed and act out in frighteningly acute negative ways. JoannaO calls them the porno-puritans. Love your shadow to enlighten it.
The message of the last decade, the ALL GOOD = illogical thinking in the realm of duality. (Yeah right, hubby keeps me down and beats me, cheats on me, but it's All Good). Why so many cling to their sinner mentality. Yoga aphorism says ,there is no sin, only the conciousness of sin. If someone says you are a sinner put on your running shoes and get away. Being in the business of fairy tales, the Bible and other spiritual texts just might be that. Were we there to verify their accuracy of tale tellings ? The teachings must be examined and tested over and over through life experience and if something resonates inwardly as false, then that is your truth.
I'm really tired and over religions. Let's get rid of them, they do not bring unity, only false sense of power but mostly strife and prejudice, my god over your god.

Posted by: bhakti on September 19, 2007 03:02 PM

bhakti...ahh but wouldn't it be wonderful if bush & blackwater were conscious of their sin? wouldn't it be wonderful if dupont, putting chemicals in all the kids clothes all over the world were conscious of their sin? they follow YOUR theory, and look at the mess we're in...think about it.

Posted by: roxanne on September 19, 2007 04:35 PM

They certainly are conscious of their sin. If you ask them they'll say they can't change these things and they need to pay their bills too. Sin is all in the beholder's eye. What is sin for others, is a necessary evil in order to make a living for some. The easiest people in the world to lie to is ourselves.

Posted by: lunaoscura on September 19, 2007 05:33 PM

Roxanne,

Never address me again, you were a troublemaker in the past. I do not like you.

No guilt or sin saying this either, just a healthy boundary line.

Posted by: bhakti on September 19, 2007 05:40 PM

ps to the newbies

Roxanne was very rude and crude on AW in the past and said many a derogatory things to the bloggers.
Hope she has changed her Biblethumping ways ,but the last post tells me that has not happened. She was mean to me and has never taken responsibilty for that. So much for the ALL GOOD and love and Jesus.
I say BS. No matter what country one lives in we take ourselves from place to place. Sad.

Posted by: bhakti on September 19, 2007 05:47 PM

The Breakdown Before the Breakthrough

The crux IMO: The world has justly lost confidence in the US dollar and the US is rapidly losing control of the price of gold which imperils its under-the-table gold for oil deals. The US loses control of oil and other commodities, so no longer got hold of the world by the short hairs or some "other" body part.......snip...."The chart above is explicit about which countries will be hit hardest when the US debt bubble bursts, i.e. Japan, China, United Kingdom and (((((((countries exporting oil in US dollars.)))))"....snip My emphasis added!

http://www.leap2020.eu/GEAB-N-17-is-available!-The-current-crisis-explained-in-one-thousand-words_a934.html

For the unitiated, most commodities must be paid for in US dollars. That power will go away now.

Most of the world has been maintaining the USS-USA, changing her oil, scrubbing the decks, supplying the galley, painting her up and washing her down.....Now they will set her adrift with a broken engine awaiting parts from China and Japan, and diesel from various.
Many, unemployed, will now have time to fish and mull-over course corrections and think of where to apply duct tape and bailing wire; made in China.

Posted by: Timmy J on September 19, 2007 05:53 PM

Ouchie. bhakti, recall the StarTrek episode with those slimey long-fingered critters would latch on to a crewmember's face and they had to pry it off?

Tha's our delightful usa mars/neptune square.
Here, "thooonk"...it's off 'ya and it just got sucked out the portal to float in deep space forever and ever... .

Posted by: patb on September 19, 2007 05:59 PM

...also sounds a tad schizo. Peace.

Posted by: patb on September 19, 2007 06:04 PM

...with a tetch of today's moon/pluto hellfire and busted eardrums.

Posted by: patb on September 19, 2007 06:16 PM

Man, this is better than a "soap!" I'm waiting for a few pulled hairs to drift around the room. Think i'll get out the sweeper.

You crack me up, patb!

Posted by: karen on September 19, 2007 06:21 PM

No dramas now. Just protecting my boundary lines.
Being direct is much better than the passive agressive
ALL GOOD. With a strong boundary why worry about the tentacles, they can never reach me.

Posted by: bhakti on September 19, 2007 06:27 PM

"I have said many times and believe it; Politics is society's career path for the psychopathic personality. My questions have always been, what part of the collective mind in us allows this kind of insanity to continue to exist decade after decade to the point that we accept it as normal."

Sally, I think the collective mind does not yet grok enlightened self interest; the paradox of doing for others serves my interest in many ways. Most crucial is, it is a source of love. Paradoxes, I think, are the hardest to "get".

The religion in Washington is still reciprocity. Holding to the general idea of no incumbents in 2008 may inspire some newbies to go where angels have feared to tread.

Posted by: Timmy J on September 19, 2007 06:44 PM

Me too here locally, Bhakti. Sticka pin in the tentacles!
Meanwhile far, far away in lala land DC, they have reached cloture on the Habeous Corpus bill, some in the Senate NOT SURE that it applies to US citizens.......................
I pointed out to Collins intern, that "MAYBE it would a good thing? to lift it totally, so tourists might want to come her from other countries and spend their dollars, ( especially in view of the fact that ours is so weak now!")
If you were French, would YOU vacation in a country where you could be thrown in jail and detained forever? ( Unless your name was Sarkozy!)
QOP

Posted by: on September 19, 2007 06:45 PM

No sweat bhakti, I'm 200% with you on that. None of those metaphors were aimed at you, just to clarify.

Karen, he-he. Since soap won't purify anything maybe we could use a good shedding today. I wish we could all "get it" and be done with this duality thing.

One word Kristo used to describe today is "harlequin". Ain't real. Just looks that way.

Posted by: patb on September 19, 2007 06:59 PM

QOP, couldn't we say with some confidence "cloture" actually means "complicit"?
Bone tired of calling those people to protect us.
Distant revolutionary horn sounding in the far misty glen. Hear it?

Posted by: patb on September 19, 2007 07:09 PM

No worries, patb.
I'm into a meditation revolution. Because of that, I most certainly can tell the difference between a Jokester and a Player.

Off to walk over the Brooklyn Bridge, yes the one everyone is trying to sell.

Posted by: bhakti on September 19, 2007 07:25 PM

As Pluto departs from Sag, behold, the Religious Right finds its power and authority "mysteriously" seeping away...

Anyone remember Sally commenting about how religion would fade and that people would become more spiritual in its' wake?

http://wvgazette.com/section/Opinion/200709113

ALTHOUGH cultural tides are difficult to discern, there’s growing evidence that the Republican Party may be losing part of its most loyal element, white evangelicals. Several new studies report loosening of the bond between the GOP and hardline believers who denounce gays, abortion, sexy movies, stem cell research, evolution, sex education and the separation of church and state.

“The Religious Right’s Era is Over” was the title of a recent Time commentary by Jim Wallis of Sojourners magazine. He said American religion “has had a negative image in the past few decades” because of fundamentalist politics, but now “we have entered the Post-Religious Right era.”

“Evangelicals — especially the new generation of pastors and young people — are deserting the Religious Right in droves,” the Time essay said. Churches are returning to more compassionate political goals such as helping the poor, increasing medical care, opposing war and similar humane ideals espoused by Jesus, Wallis wrote.

Last month, when a CNN series included a segment on “God’s Christian Warriors,” the Toronto Star printed an analysis titled “Is the Christian Right Withering?”

“The sex-and-drugs scandal involving prominent televangelist Ted Haggard last year and the unpopularity of the war in Iraq backed by the Christian right have caused cracks in the power base of religious conservatives,” the Canadian paper observed. “...Democratic contender Barack Obama, for instance, has accused the Christian right of promoting hate and challenged its contention that strict Christian values are integral to American society.... It’s the kind of thing no politician would have dared to say in the United States not so long ago.”

More: http://wvgazette.com/section/Opinion/200709113
--

Interesting, no? These changing times.

Posted by: NEOBuckeye on September 19, 2007 07:41 PM

Make that intro, the "once mighty" Religious Right. Remember how seemingly invincible they once were? For that matter, also include the Republicans, Rove, Cheney and the Bushes. And even imperialist America. Where is their power now?

Posted by: NEOBuckeye on September 19, 2007 07:44 PM

Dan Rather is suing CBS for $70,000,000.00.

YES!

Posted by: Pat C on September 19, 2007 08:54 PM

Here's the article from the NYT on Rather's extravaganza.

http://tinyurl.com/35gvmh

Posted by: Pat C on September 19, 2007 09:40 PM

WHAT!!!!!!!! $70,000,000.00 Incredible and ever so funny. Go Dan, he must have a case, it's hard to sue a corporation these days.

Timmy J. to your point I think of this period of time with a gross analogy and that is a huge carbuncle boil (a bacterial abscess) It takes a long time for it to come to a head and before it does all this pus starts coming out and then "bang" the head of the boil also comes out, it's very painful but starts to feel better as it heals. I think we might be getting to the head, I hope in my lifetime but it will all come out.

Posted by: Sally on September 19, 2007 09:50 PM

Sally and Patb, thanks for acknowledging my posting on the movie,Zeitgeist ... can't recommend it enough. As Sally so wisely puts it ... it really connects the dots. Patb, how incredible that you know/knew? the narrator ... six degrees of separation, I guess.

Sally, thought Sally Field was great and laughed about your "no earth" comment ... she did pull it together and you could tell everyone was holding their breath to see if she was gonna make it! Which she did, beautifully.

All the best to all ...

Posted by: on September 19, 2007 10:14 PM

NEObuckeye, now we're looking at what pluto/mars "hi, howyadoin'" ingress into cap late '08 will bring. Don't mean to be Captain Bringdown but seems oppression lining up just after next year's election.
Note the heavy handed Jackbooting by security cops we've seen domestically in just the last coupla days at the Clinton and Kerry Forums. Democratic Forums!

My personal meditation revolution seems to make it tougher not to see the notches being upped.
Wah Wah Wah!

Posted by: patb on September 20, 2007 02:04 AM

What a bummer! It's being reported over at DU that the US debt limit will be reached Oct 1 (so many brazillions that I can't even imagine) and that Saudi Arabia is about ready to go with the Euro. I come back here to tell y'all about those two things, and failure to restore habeas corpus and give our troops R&R, only to learn from patb that repression with jack-booted meaning will be coming after the 2008 election. Cap'n Sally, please rescue me.

Posted by: shylurker on September 20, 2007 02:16 AM

shyluker, geez, this happened so fast it reminds me of a scene from Monty Python where an un-dead plague victim is chastised for being a sissy at complaining of being put on the dead wagon before he's dead.

Bring out your dead, bring out your dead.....snip.....Saudi Arabia has refused to cut interest rates in lockstep with the US Federal Reserve for the first time, signalling that the oil-rich Gulf kingdom is preparing to break the dollar currency peg in a move that risks setting off a stampede out of the dollar across the Middle East.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/09/19/bcnsaudi119.xml

Posted by: Timmy J on September 20, 2007 02:45 AM

Shylurker, it's o.k.. I don't know anything, so you didn't learn anything from me.

But take habeaus fromus, they're complicit baby.
Both parties, one big thumb.

Posted by: patb on September 20, 2007 02:56 AM

Sorry, patb. I just have to go WAAAAAAAAAH! every once in a while. I feel better now and you just keep on doin' what you do so well. Best to you!

Posted by: shylurker on September 20, 2007 03:04 AM

Sidney Blumenthal just did to his keyboard what Jimi Hendrix did to his guitar--incinerated it. Go to salon.com, watch a few seconds of a commercial, click on "Enter" (up at the top right) and go right on in. At this moment, Sid's article is the main feature. Hot doggies!

Posted by: shylurker on September 20, 2007 03:36 AM

Shy, Correction time. Seems there were NO dems voting "no" to removing the iron clamps. They did not, repeat did not betray us. They didn't have the 60% needed to revive habeaus.

I really apologize for the overreaction before opening my gob. This won't happen again. Sorry.

Posted by: patb on September 20, 2007 04:15 AM

No need for any apologies, patb. We're holding our collective breath that the U.S. Constitution & Bill of Rights can survive the terrible, concentrated attack of the past few years. Not a matter of "overreaction" at all, but of sheer alarm that is shared by many. Yessum.

Posted by: shylurker on September 20, 2007 05:02 AM

In 1977 Pluto was conjunct the US Saturn squaring the US Sun and Mars was squaring the whole thing. In 1982 Pluto was conjunct the US Pluto and Saturn was also conjunct the same point with Mars squaring. Now I expect in 1982 was when the Iran/Contra was being planned and in 1977 Jimmy Carter was just made President and the Iran hostages hadn't become a reality then. We did have an energy crisis at that time and Carter started out handling it pretty well. So even in recent history the aspects have been grim.

What is different this time is the seeming desire to put the jack-boot down on the US and if Hillary or a GOP'er becomes president that is something that just might happen for a time and we will keep our head low and live through it all and the majority of us will be just fine because these aspects do not last forever and 2020 is on its way. There isn't anything to be afraid of because they are an illusion of our collective minds and I always hold out the hope that our collective minds will suddenly switch and they will be gone. We are "safe" because of ourselves and they cannot make us unsafe unless we give them that power. Saturn represents our leaders of the world and I would say they have far more to worry about than we do.

Posted by: Sally on September 20, 2007 06:37 AM

As an early baby boomer and advocate for the good side of what the 60s guys and gals tried to do.
I think I can live with the predicted changes as mentioned below but I wonder how many BBs are prepared for the possibility?

http://www.dailyreckoning.us/blog/?p=538

Astrologers interested in cycles should check out a couple of interesting cyclic theories.

Here's a couple of clips
The “changing mentality” of the baby boomers

A trend of sorts that Bill Bonner wrote about in Monday's DR was prophesied in a book written ten years ago: the baby boom generation, forced by economic circumstances to give up its getting-and-spending ways of the 80s, returning to its peace-love-and-poverty ways of the 60s.


"My guess is that this real estate problem is going to change the whole mentality of the baby-boomers," said a friend yesterday. "We're going to go back to our roots in the 1960s and focus on happiness, rather than money. What I mean is that we're going to give up on money as a source of happiness…either because we finally got money and then discovered that it didn't make us happy…or, probably for most people, the wealth we thought we had - in our houses - is going to disappear.

PS
New Zealand is a cheap place to live.
But get in quick before the falling US dollar
goes into a tailspin.

Hey Timmy any predictions on if and when gold will go to 1,000 dollars since that'll be an indicator of just how far the US dollar has fallen?

Posted by: Stan on September 20, 2007 07:31 AM

Did you all read the link posted in the comments under Stan's dailyreackoning.us?
Something happening here. ( about back to the land Texas style)
I was in phone conversation with a friend last night, 25 years my jr. living in an old big suburban home wanting a change. I am teaching her self suffency. SHe uses purchased stevia for sweetening, I have a stevia plant in my kitchen. I told her what to do with the rose hips on the bush in her yard, SHe is now beginning to understand what I have been telling her for a couple of years! We discussed the lifestyle of the Amish.Gee I wish I had a little more ground( space for a horse!)
QOP

Posted by: on September 20, 2007 11:44 AM

About the Religious Right: Pluto/Capricorn: transforming tradition? After reading that article I began to wonder if denominations like Episcopalianism will be making a comeback despite the efforts of the righties to kill them. Episcopalians have for a long time believed in Social Welfare, and social justice and compassion. Recently, inclusiveness too. Plus Episcopals have never believed in imposing their religion on anybody once they were no longer the official church. After being denounced by Baptists as being aloof, a church that leaves us alone a bit may well be a belief. Not to mention that I've been looking for a while for the internet revolution to hit religion too. Attending church over the net and such.

Posted by: Carol on September 20, 2007 01:57 PM

But at the same time, they have kept some of the traditions of Roman Catholicism, and traditional Christian doctrines as well, without keeping the super hierarchy and sexual repression. And don't forget many of the Founding Fathers were Unitarians too-that's another tradition.

Posted by: Carol on September 20, 2007 02:10 PM

Thank you for all here who have looked at my site. Bhakti still seems to be madly jealous of me! Pure poison. As always. Hatred will eat you up my girl - it causes cancer among other things! How sad.
For 'newbies' I was pushed off the site, never for being rude or crude or bible thumping, but for backing Ralph Nader, the man of the people and saying that dems were dreaming to think they would overcome the evil that was Bush...and disputing predictions of Bushs fatal Saturn transits and Cheney's ill-health transits - it all being directed outward to the people instead of imploding them... All this came to pass... And the dems rolled over in 2004 as well as 2000...they rolled over to the war, rolled over on freedom and democracy is dead. Bush is a reflection of the kind of people who are filled with hatred, liberal, hypocrite, the whole lot... And there are a lot of them in the USA, and the good people are in a sad minority. You live with it, and try to stay happy, or you are part of the problem in divisive negativity... Theres a reason it all went down, and it's not all what is on the outside, but what is within...
Godspeed to those who welcome it!

Posted by: roxanne on September 20, 2007 02:53 PM


Comments following this article are great!

GOP Rep. : There Are 'Too Many Mosques In This Country'

1 Minute Video

When asked to clarify his statement, King did not revise his answer, saying "I think there has been a lack of full cooperation from too many people in the Muslim community.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18421.htm

Posted by: wv on September 20, 2007 03:01 PM

The IPCC says the tipping point of reaching a 2 degree rise in temperature is as close as 2015. They are talking not about whether it will happen, but of humanity learning how to adapt when it does happen.

http://environment.independent.co.uk/climate_change/article2976669.ece

[snip]
The latest study from the United Nation's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) put the inevitability of drastic global warming in the starkest terms yet, stating that major impacts on parts of the world – in particular Africa, Asian river deltas, low-lying islands and the Arctic – are unavoidable and the focus must be on adapting life to survive the most devastating changes.

For more than a decade, EU countries led by Britain have set a rise of two degrees centigrade or less in global temperatures above pre-industrial levels as the benchmark after which the effects of climate become devastating, with crop failures, water shortages, sea-level rises, species extinctions and increased disease.

Two years ago, an authoritative study predicted there could be as little as 10 years before this "tipping point" for global warming was reached, adding a rise of 0.8 degrees had already been reached with further rises already locked in because of the time lag in the way carbon dioxide – the principal greenhouse gas – is absorbed into the atmosphere.

The IPCC said yesterday that the effects of this rise are being felt sooner than anticipated with the poorest countries and the poorest people set to suffer the worst of shifts in rainfall patterns, temperature rises and the viability of agriculture across much of the developing world.

In its latest assessment of the progress of climate change, the body said: "If warming is not kept below two degrees centigrade, which will require the strongest mitigation efforts, and currently looks very unlikely to be achieved, the substantial global impacts will occur, such as species extinctions, and millions of people at risk from drought, hunger, flooding."

more...

Posted by: lunaoscura on September 20, 2007 03:34 PM

from the same IPCC article above:

Plus two degrees: the consequences

Arica: Between 350 and 600 million people will suffer water shortages or increased competition for water. Yields from agriculture could fall by half by 2020 while arid areas will rise by up to 8 per cent. The number of sub-Saharan species at risk of extinction will rise by at least 10 per cent.

Asia: Up to a billion people will suffer water shortages as supplies dwindle with the melting of Himalayan glaciers. Maize and wheat yields will fall by up to 5 per cent in India; rice crops in China will drop by up to 12 per cent. Increased risk of coastal flooding.

Australia/New Zealand: Between 3,000 and 5,000 more heat-related deaths a year. Water supplies will no longer be guaranteed in parts of southern and eastern Australia by 2030. Annual bleaching of the Great Barrier Reef.

Europe: Warmer temperatures will increase wheat yields by up to 25 per cent in the north but water availability will drop in the south by up to a quarter. Heatwaves, forest fires and extreme weather events such as flash floods will be more frequent. New diseases will appear.

Latin America: Up to 77 million people will face water shortages and tropical glaciers will disappear. Tropical forests will become savanna and there will be increased risk of coastal flooding in low-lying areas such as El Salvador and Guyana.

North America: Crop yields will increase by up to 20 per cent due to warmer temperatures but economic damage from extreme weather events such as Hurricane Katrina will continue increasing.

Polar regions: The seasonal thaw of permafrost will increase by 15 per cent and the overall extent of the permafrost will shrink by about 20 per cent. Indigenous communities such as the Inuit face loss of traditional lifestyle.

Small islands: Low-lying islands are particularly vulnerable to rising sea levels with the Maldives already suffering land loss.

Posted by: lunaoscura on September 20, 2007 03:43 PM

Hey Roxanne,
It's called projecting. Those who call others jealous are the jealous ones. And I take it all as a compliment.
Checked out your site and big deal. There's alot of wannabes and posers who think they are hot because they are associated with certain people.
That does not give them talent. That's just a false persona to cover feelings of low self worth. Googled your name too and I did not see anything that said you were anyone. Hardly any links. Photos from 20+ years ago is not the the now. Sad, the need to live in the past, it's usually because the present sucks. Calling me jealous of that? A compliment to me. Anyone can make a website and become a legend in their own minds. Advertising it on AW is pretty low after treating people here in condescending ways in the past and the present.

You were certainly nasty, putting people down, or is that selective memory working?
Create chaos, piss all over others than say God forgives, without one iota of taking RESPONSIBILTY for it. Own up and take RESPONSIBILTY.

My compassion at the moment is that you find help.

My very last post about this stuff, it wastes time.
You are on my Ignore.

Posted by: bhakti on September 20, 2007 04:11 PM

Stan, I can't say I'm good at short term predictions. It depends on the race to the bottom of fiat currencies and the current debt economy spotlighted by the subprime mess. If you won't buy distrusted stocks, bonds etc, and banks won't loan for distrust, and people begin to exit the paper investment markets, and blackbox trading schemes in derrivative houses go tilt because we are in SUCH new territory, ANNNNNND, only gold NOT paper will buy oil, then perhaps the bigger question might be: When will gold go to $10,000.00?
For my, hehe, money, the best predictor of economic events has been Martin Armstrong. He has been right, to the day, on economic shifts, for about 20 yrs. Like astrology, his model too is based on cycles and sub cycles. Look to squares of his pi cycle if you google and study him.

Posted by: Timmy J on September 20, 2007 04:39 PM

Now explain to me how we expect congress to reach concessions on the critical mass of:

-the unnecessary mass killings of civilians and soldiers in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere

-the absolute degradation of our planet

-creating a human-based health-care system

-re-instating habeus corpus

if we cannot be civil, or humane with on another.

Posted by: karen on September 20, 2007 04:46 PM

Sally, I appreciate your reassuring words more than you know, and am sure everyone else feels the same. Sharing these gifts of the mind and spirit are priceless. The best possible use of a site such as yours. Hospitality is the most generous and loving gesture we can extend to one another...especially in times such as these.

Lunascura, those are such sad developments around the world. Your posting reflects just how much you care about this precious world we live in.
As irony would have it, we watched our Netflix "Strange Days on Planet Earth" just last night!
You've probably seen it, but maybe refreshing your memory might help in that ecosystems DO recover. Reefs are being protected by making them wild preserves, blooming again within just a few years, fish returning. Reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone and how everything else, the grasses, the aspen, the beavers also recover and many more examples!
Like you, I feel it physically watching any species disappear, how they suffer and the utterly horrible brainless things we are doing to them. I'll be the first to say "man" is a failed experiment, nature's worst news. Direct awareness of what is gone like dipping into an empty well, frying farmland, dropping from the heat, floating fish (Denver's entire duck population at the park pond all dying) does spur people and scientists to action. Man is a destructive idiot.
Like QOP would love to have a horse! The rare times I go to a Dr. something awful happens to me from any pharmaceutical (that's another story)and have permanent damage: if that won't teach ya nothing will).

Roxanne, I'm no authority but that's not a fun realm you're offering.

Posted by: patb on September 20, 2007 05:15 PM

Karen, as my teacher Chogyam Trungpa used to say, we seem to learn only by banging into negative signposts. We've saddened everything in the world that has a face, including our own.
This list you've shared is about to destroy the republican party.
Don't get me started on Hillary or Blackwater.

Posted by: patb on September 20, 2007 05:42 PM

padb, One thing is for sure. We will have to live with whatever happens. If the planet as we know it is destroyed then we will have to adapt and live with that. I'm not at all optimistic that anything will be done in time. Almost daily there is news about areas the size of Florida melting in the Arctic in six days, or melting rates of glaciers in Greenland being the size of Britain from one year to the next.

Sure, if we stopped all forms of greenhouse gases we might just make it, but all I hear is corporations talking about cutting these gases by half in 20 or 30 years. The IPCC talks about it being too ate by 2015. I'll be more optimistic when I see a real drive to cut greenhouse gases, not these token legislations.

Posted by: lunaoscura on September 20, 2007 06:22 PM

Bhakti,

Troll troll troll, thought she was banned she's baited us here before.

Love your insights and the wonderful stories you share. Enjoy your kids!

Posted by: Morgana on September 20, 2007 07:40 PM

patb, what list di karen share? posted above? I couldn't find it.
Morgana, hope things are raelly improving with your family!
Here's a list........
Senate wasted taxpayers money today to vote a condemnation of Move-on inctead of fixing some problems. Yeas & Nays
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00344
Maybe I ought to give up on COllins and Snowe & go back to NJ!
QOP

Posted by: on September 20, 2007 07:48 PM

As someone said on another thread, I wonder why they didn't do that to the Swiftboaters?

Posted by: Pat C on September 20, 2007 08:13 PM

Did anybody notice Venus this morning just before sunrise? I opened the backporch door (faces East) at 5:30 am, and she was maybe 35 degrees above the horizon, glowing blue and so big that I thought I was looking at a conjunction. But Saturn is about 14 degrees away.

Pat C, today I saw MoveOn's new ad taking on Mitch McConnell. It will be awhile before the Repugs realize that they've finally found an adversary who will not back down and will keep on hitting back.

Posted by: Barbara on September 20, 2007 09:12 PM

lunaoscura, I'm not trying to put lipstick on this pig, don't misunderstand. This destruction is impossibly widespread it's a systems crash we'll be forced to STOP because we hit a wall.
All is overwhelmed.

As Gore is telling us and as this flick tells us, the paying attention to each crashed system and understanding how it went wrong makes for surprisingly quick recoveries. Meanwhile the losses are sweeping and profoundly sad.
Meanwhile our insane consumption will be stopped because it can't continue, we've sh** where we eat, and whipping the horse won't get him up again. The castles will crash into the sea people wiped out and herds suffer and the offending empires will fall, thank Gaia for that!


Posted by: patb on September 20, 2007 09:15 PM

Barbara, I sure hope so! Nice thought.

.......

Maliki Blasts Blackwater Firm

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/092007A.shtml

Leila Fadel of the McClatchy Newspapers reports, "Blackwater security guards who protect top U.S. diplomats in Iraq have been involved in at least seven serious incidents, some of which resulted in the deaths of innocent civilians, Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki said Wednesday."

George Lakoff | Oil and Betrayal in Iraq

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/092007B.shtml

George Lakoff, writing for Truthout, states: "Think about what it means for our troops and for the people of Iraq. Our troops were told, and believed because they trusted their president, they were in Iraq to protect America, to protect their families, their homes, their friends and neighbors, our democracy. But they were betrayed. Those troops fought and died and were maimed and had their marriages break up for oil company profits."

Posted by: Pat C on September 20, 2007 09:48 PM

Barbara, yes, I also saw Venus (I couldn't believe how large and brightly she glowed) this morning about the same time and just sat and watched the sunrise. After a night of rain my backyard was glowing, the birds were singing and it was stunningly beautiful. A moment of peace.

Posted by: on September 20, 2007 10:54 PM

QOP, Karen's post has 4 points that spell a wipeout in '08 for repuks. They'll do their best to rig whatever they can then undermine and distract the next pres to where the next pres might forget his own name.
Hillary's chart doesn't look like a "win" particularly but then all these backdoor deals....

In the same vein, saw Gore's victory in 2000, and he did win, and all that mars/nep karma the u.s. has is being reckoned with in spades. Like any addict the source gets cut off after the country has had a wild enough ride to ruin,.

Posted by: patb on September 20, 2007 10:56 PM

Just shot off a letter to Ken Salazar, our senate Bluedog congratulating himself about disaster funding for CO farmers (hand-in-hand with R-Pat Roberts and Brownback) and think I may have spanked him pretty hard by saying I doubted the money was meant for farmers and would go into their pockets instead, and shame on him with voting to keep our troops strung out an exhausted, and that we're Voting Him Out. If I disappear there's an envelope in locker #698 at Grand Central Station in NY.

Posted by: patb on September 21, 2007 03:31 AM

"Let's revolutionize revolution and make it an institution."

Can't remember the poet's name! James Kavenaugh maybe!

Posted by: Timmy J on September 21, 2007 04:21 AM

Timmy J: Proudhon, maybe?
http://fair-use.org/p-j-proudhon/general-idea-of-the-revolution/the-principle-of-association

Posted by: shylurker on September 21, 2007 04:42 AM

Hi Timmy
Really appreciate your feedback.
For those interested here's a great link
http://www.contrahour.com/contrahour/2006/06/martin_armstron.html
At a glance after only a rapid read (But I shall return)
It kinda looks like the year 2008.225 for gold

For those who think Na it will never go to 1,000 dollars - read this excerpt
"In 1976, one of these 8.6-year turning points was quickly approaching (1977.05). For the first time, I began to use this model expecting a significant turn in the economy back toward inflation. My friends thought I was mad. Everyone was talking about how another Great Depression was coming. The stock market had crashed by 50% and OPEC seemed to be undermining everything. I rolled the dice and stuck to it and to my amazement, inflation exploded right on cue as gold rallied from $103 to $875 by January 1980."

Kinda liked this bit from the article
"Blaming the rich, your neighbor or a particular race are all vain quests to explain the cause of a cycle that has moved through the boom bust phase. Who knows, perhaps it is possible that if for one moment we truly understood the business cycle and worked in harmony with it, the possibility of reducing the amplitude just might result in a more stable political-economy for all mankind."

And especially
" if for one moment we truly understood the business cycle and WORKED IN HARMONY WITH IT (my emphasis) the possibility of reducing the amplitude just might result in a more stable political-economy for all mankind."

Geez at personal level that's exactly why I make the effort to try and understand astrological cycles and what they are trying to tell me.

Posted by: Stan on September 21, 2007 05:09 AM

... "I didn't take this on to have it dwindle away," Rather said in a phone interview Thursday. "I'm prepared to fight it all the way. . . . I don't have to be afraid anymore of standing up and speaking out."

Rather, who according to the suit drew a $6-million salary at CBS, said any money he collects will go to nonprofit groups, including the Committee to Protect Journalists. "People will say, 'You're suing for $70 million?' You bet I am," he said. "That's the only language that these corporations understand." ...

... The 75-year-old newsman said that officials at CBS and its parent company Viacom needed "regulatory favors" from administration officials ...

... The veteran newsman said he hired this group at his own expense but declined to say who participated or whether the team included journalists or private investigators.

"I learned a lot of things I didn't know before," Rather said.

According to Rather, Viacom boss Sumner Redstone, worried about the company's standing in Washington, grew "enraged" over the Bush-story controversy at a board meeting, telling those present that "Dan Rather and anyone associated with Dan Rather has to go."

Rather also said CBS failed to honor the terms of its contract with him. He claims that then-CBS News boss Andrew Heyward, who was named in the suit, held "secret meetings" internally to discuss the anchor's fate. And Rather insisted that, despite executives' claims to the contrary, the network had decided to cancel the weekday edition of "60 Minutes" after its reporting on the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal provoked displeasure from top Bush officials.

In the wake of the controversy over Bush's military documents, Rather said, Heyward persuaded him to read an apology on the air by telling him it would help protect not just him but also his longtime colleagues. "I didn't think the apology was a good idea," Rather said. ...

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/business/la-et-rather21sep21,1,81996.story?coll=la-headlines-business-enter

Posted by: Pat C on September 21, 2007 05:32 AM

I always thought that Pluto in Aquarius (2025 to 2043) might bring many resolutions to what may by then be serious pressing issues with our changing environment and rising temperatures. Deep and transformative empowerment of technology, and of humanity itself.

I don't know whether or not we will get a full grip on all the changes taking place at this phase in our history, but we will certainly learn how to adapt to them and to some extent live with the changes in the planet brought on by our past actions.

We'll get there, regardless as to how our economic situation ends up. It's a convoluted, thoroughly corrupted and truly ugly mess. It must come down. Pluto in Cap will surely see to that.

Posted by: NEOBuckeye on September 21, 2007 06:45 AM

Forgot to mention that Pluto raises issues of survival. Humanity will be facing its own when Pluto comes to Aquarius, but I think we'll manage it very well, also given the trine to Uranus in Gemini and the coming of age of the Pluto in Libra generation into leadership roles during the same period. Democracy returns with a vengeance?

Posted by: NEOBuckeye on September 21, 2007 06:50 AM

Timmy

You might be interested in this

Indian Time Cycles, Gann and the Future of the U.s. Stock Market

http://pr-gb.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18514&Itemid=9

In case you didn't know
J.P. Morgan, the founder of the Morgan bank, was fond of saying that “anyone can be a millionaire, but to become a billionaire, you need an astrologer.” He had a private astrologer, Evageline Adams, who helped him tremendously

The following also kinda fits with the thoughts of Western Astrolgers.

There is an approximate high into June 9, 2007 followed by a sharp decline into the week of Oct. 22, 2007 with a lower low due into about the third week of April 2008. We are still watching patterns to translate this into price movement.

There appears to be a recovery rally into late May 2010, then a sharp fall into Dec. 2010, a recovery toward the highs into Jan. 2013 and a major decline into 2013 that is one of the lowest points in the whole period, a recovery into August 2015 and then a sharp fall into the end of the period, which makes new lows into April 2017. Hence the periods to be long stocks appear to be Feb.-June 2007; April 2008 to May 2010 and Dec. 2010 to Jan. 2013. We adjust these directional indicators using Elliott Wave pattern analysis to predict price. There appears enough upward momentum in the current cycle to take stocks much higher into the June 2007 cycle high.

Posted by: Stan on September 21, 2007 09:25 AM

Excellent summary of "The Tiffany Network", or what excellent news broadcasting used to be, how it worked and what happened to it:
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2007/09/the-old-tiffian.html

Posted by: shylurker on September 21, 2007 02:33 PM

Today is a big day, this is the day that an individual or group of individuals placed well over a billion dollars on the belief that the stock markets would fall. Yesterday the Fed lowered their interest rates and for the first time ever the Saudi's did not follow suit and this morning the market didn't fall (yet) in spite of opening lower. I expect there will be a huge amount of market watching today and Monday, we will soon see.

I have not had time to look into the Elliott Wave to see if we are falling into a dip but perhaps the stock people on this site could take a look, or have taken a look and Stan is right, the Gann or the Candlestick theory could provide some clues.

Mars is separating from the Pluto opposition and the Sun has separated from the square to Pluto. Both of these aspects indicate a violent energy (which could apply to markets, violence isn't just fista cuffs) but that was more likely with the lead into the aspect and not the separation. Monday is a day to watch what the Asian markets do, as Venus will be transiting toward the Saturn/Neptune oppsition point of August. There has been a great deal of violence in Iraq during the Sun/Mars/Pluto aspects and a great deal of anger around, thus far it hasn't hit the markets.

Posted by: Sally on September 21, 2007 02:59 PM

Sally and all, I'm not an expert on this, but here is a link of interest.

http://www.oftwominds.com/blogsept07/big-one.html

Posted by: Pat C on September 21, 2007 03:35 PM

U.S.EXPERT WARNS OF FRESH FINANCIAL SHOCKS

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/31d8aba4-66b6-11dc-a218-0000779fd2ac.html

Posted by: Pat C on September 21, 2007 04:41 PM

Bhakti has it right about that wackjob Roxanne. If you want an idea of how nuts she is go to this 2005 article here and scroll down and read the vile email she sent me that I posted. http://www.astroworld.us/archives/000497.html#000497

Posted by: Jill G on September 21, 2007 05:37 PM

Did anyone else get this e-mail from move-on?
Dear MoveOn member,

Yesterday, an amazing thing happened. After the Senate's shameful vote, and after President Bush called MoveOn "disgusting," our email started to fill up with messages like this one:

I'm currently in Iraq. I do not agree with this war, and if I did support this war, it would not matter. You have the RIGHT to speak the truth. We KNOW that you support us. Thank you for speaking out for being our voice. We do not have a voice. We are overshooted by those who say that we soldiers do not support organizations like MoveOn. WE DO.

YOU ARE OUR voice.

And then came the donations. By midnight, over 12,000 people had donated $500,000—more than we've raised any day this year—for our new ad calling out the Republicans who blocked adequate rest for troops headed back to Iraq.

The message from MoveOn members was loud and clear: Don't back down. Take the fight back to the issues that matter.

So today we're shooting for a very ambitious goal: Reach $1 million so we can dramatically expand the campaign we launched yesterday going after politicians who support this awful war. Can you chip in $25 toward our goal?
QOP

Posted by: on September 21, 2007 06:21 PM

QOP, I didn't get that message, but I saw the MoveOn ad about Mitch McConnel (answering the Senate's "shut-up" message) and sent them a check for $10. (All I could afford, but those ten dollars do add up.)

Then yesterday saw their petition and signed it. In the message section I said that if the General had delivered a "report" like that to the public about 150 years ago he would have been pelted with rotten eggs instead of a TV ad.

Posted by: Barbara on September 21, 2007 06:30 PM

Forgot to say, QOP, thanks for posting the MoveOn info--I'm so glad to hear about that response!

Posted by: Barbara on September 21, 2007 06:32 PM

I missed "scroll down" so read most of the posts on the old blog from MAy 05. So "quaint" a lot of it given where we are today.
I was sworrying about the base closings here in Maine. ( Too bad they didn't ALL close)
This week my librarian friend went to the librarians conference; housed in the old navy base! A much better use!
Today the fastest growing jobs in the state are Art related, according to the Maine Arts COmmission newsletter!
QOP

Posted by: on September 21, 2007 07:09 PM

Jill, you wrote:

Bhakti has it right about that wackjob Roxanne. If you want an idea of how nuts she is go to this 2005 article here and scroll down and read the vile email she sent me that I posted. http://www.astroworld.us/archives/000497.html#000497

I went back and skimmed all the posts...I read what you posted of Roxanne's and didn't find anyting offensive in it, in fact I agreed with it.

Sometimes I get very confused about what is permitted here....and my run ins with Bhakti have always, it seems, produced a feeling of being poured on with battery acid. Being direct is not a social grace in many cases. So I have to assume that other posts which I haven't read from Roxanne and which others including Morgana have knowledge of were more wicked that what was posted here.

I don't post much anymore, unlike 2005 for a reason....this kind of incivility.

Posted by: judigem on September 21, 2007 07:35 PM

Judigem, the post you had on that day at 6:49 AM seemed to agree with my sentiments if not my actions??? I'm surprised you now say you agree with the vile bs that Roxann sent me. Sorry, I brought it up.

"And hey, I decided that the church (presbyterian) was too hypocritical by far at 15 yrs of age....at 50 I decided to read the bible which I had from Wailuku Union Church on Maui....Got thru Exodus with a new appreciation for why Jewish people have such incredible sense of humors....OMG...I was laughing out loud. I could see Woody Allen and Mel Brooks and Billy Crystal, hear there voices as I read.... I like the old testament.....it has some absolutely beautiful writing in it, especially Psalms....there is a glory in some of the writing, speaking in a creative mode. Real glory of words put together in a mysterious and lyrical way which is like being in church at those times when it is inspirational. But that can mean just sitting there, not listening to some yahoo on a pulpit pumping pounds of poo poo onto our heads.

It is how the bible has been used to wound and kill which makes it burnable. And I do believe we are in a burn baby burn mode of the 1960's ....or perhaps a people burning mode of the 1690's. none of it is surprising when you look at our history.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.....we forgot that."
Posted by: judi gemini on May 17, 2005 06:49 AM

Posted by: Jill G on September 21, 2007 07:48 PM

Jill G, perhaps what Judigem meant was, with the passage of time, the email Roxanne sent you does not feel/appear as insensitive as it did when it was sent. When I went back to Roxanne's post I also didn't feel it was so bad, this time around (even though at the time I had the opposite reaction and posted so). Upon reading her email to you, the part that is harsh is the end. But, if you read between the lines, she does appear to be well-meaning, if very committed to the bible/religion.

I am not religious. However, some of my very dear friends are very religious/bible oriented. And that is their choice, which should be respected (the same way we want our choices respected). Let's look for the common threads that unite us, rather than those that create dissention.

There is so much animosity in the world today ... let's all try to not be victims, nor to victimize (nor to demonize). Kindness goes a long way.

Anyway, hope I'm not offending anybody, it's not my intention.

Hi Judigem!

Posted by: Marta on September 21, 2007 08:11 PM

Well AW has been pretty much acidic free for a while now, let's keep it that way. I've been around as long as the rest of you. JudiG and Bhakti may spit at one another, as well as others, but they do not BAIT the AW community. Baiting gets you banned.
The folks here today, have a lot to contribute. Dredging about old garbage is just so so Republican. :)
Onward folks, this country is a mess.

That said we've a nasty Equinox chart, I've a piece that'll be up this weekend.

Peace

Posted by: Morgana on September 21, 2007 08:21 PM

btw judi, when your mother died I was the first person to send condolances while your pals continued posting old news and did not say a word until after my post.

I'll continue to pass over your posts, I just saw my name.

Those who say nasty things about others: it just reveals their own qualities.

Posted by: bhakti on September 21, 2007 09:00 PM

Sigh.

Posted by: karen on September 21, 2007 10:19 PM

Re this bible stuff. How about looking at the empty space behind one letter, like the way the white space is met by the ink, or the shapes and curves and the white it's stamped on. Kind of sensual, like cream.

To burn such usually doesn't help the situation because there's still a bad feeling and not much in the way of a sense of freedom. Better to take it to a used book store, or leave it somewhere neutral.

Ideological bludgeoning from our parents leave scars and sensitivities where we overreact instinctively because we've felt helpless against them when we were powerless captive audiences to our parent's trips of all kinds. I think we can respect one another's sensitivities, right?

Posted by: patb on September 21, 2007 11:22 PM

Behold & be dazzled:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=228x34376

Posted by: shylurker on September 21, 2007 11:30 PM

LEOPARDS NEVER CHANGE, DO THEY,

R O X A N N E ?


CL

Posted by: CL on September 22, 2007 12:25 AM

Beauteous pictures, Shy.
But NOT eye candy.......SOUL candy!
QOP

Posted by: on September 22, 2007 01:10 AM

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/2007/09/charge_cowed_by.php

Charge: Desperate To Curry Favor With Bush, CBS Execs Tried Not To Run Abu Ghraib Story

Posted by: Pat C on September 22, 2007 01:40 AM

Yazzo manazzo Shy! What are we doing HERE?
Thanks billions..and...billions..and..

Posted by: patb on September 22, 2007 02:24 AM

On the right-hand side bar, Cap'n Sally has posted a link to the StarIQ NewsScope. Mr. Merriman has a weekly column there. Money, wealth, the stock market, etc.--all those unsavory things--are his specialty. Do check out what he's posted for the coming week, particularly the Long-Term section. Here's a little quote:

"If you ask people in the currency markets, they will point out that the United States is for sale, and the dollar is rapidly losing its purchasing value. It’s just a matter of time before business leaders of the world will no longer want to accept payment of the U.S. dollar for their goods. Its days as the standard world currency are slowly fading into the sunset. And a generation after that may be the demise of English as the world’s standard language. One follows the other."

Posted by: shylurker on September 22, 2007 04:09 AM

Jesus...one post I make, and you are down on me like a pack of wolves....

Thanks for the support, Marta.....

And Bhakti, I didn't remember that you had been the first to offer condolences upon my mother's death , and of course, my bad; my only quarrel with you ALWAYS involves you telling others what they can or cannot do. But you TRASHED Roxanne about her website...which I still find out of character for a person SO into their Bhuddist philosophy of life.

I just finished reading some of what she wrote about her early life....I find her interesting....

I have many friends who say and do some really outrageous things....sometimes I am angry with my friends, sometimes I am bored with my friends, some of them are even evangelical Christians...but they stay my friends for a reason. And many of my friends came from this board. I don't always agree with them, but that doesn't make them any less friends.

A couple of you had bad experiences with Roxanne...but is it right to poison everyone else's experience also?

I dunno....I didn't find anything she said deserving of that kind of trashing.

I miss Joanna Oregon....who could always make me laugh but she never attacked anyone.

Posted by: judigem on September 22, 2007 04:51 AM

Hi Stan, and thanx for the link. I've heard the "Indian" astrologers are better at prediction than those practicing "western" astrology. I include myself as I lean toward psychological/humanistic astrology. Although the Martin Armstrong cycles just fascinate me! I tried to correlate them with astrology sun jupiter cycles etc, until I hit upon his use of squares in his timing. Of course the pi cycle is intersting too; a complete circle and all that.
I read the CIA put him away before he got too powerful.
It is interesting the demise of the US economic power just as Pluto is coming into Capricorn, no? Personally I don't think the "Yankee Traders" are done for yet. My contrary opinion is they have many capped oil wells and much easy to yet tap in the ground. Google Gull Island for in ground oil. If my silly opinion is right, they sit patiently and corner the market again.

Posted by: Timmy J on September 22, 2007 05:58 AM

This is a graphic of the Arctic showing the record amount of ice that has melted this year. Record sea ice melt this summer is larger than Texas and Alaska

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2007/09/21/MNMISACP7.DTL&o=0

(and this is the story that goes with the graphic)

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/09/21/MNMISACP7.DTL

Shattering previous records, the sea ice in the Arctic shrank 1 million square miles more this summer than the average melt over 25 years, an area larger than Alaska and Texas combined, according to NASA satellite data released Thursday.
Scientists at the federally financed National Snow and Ice Data Center at the University of Colorado attributed the big melt to a global increase in ocean and air temperatures. The melting was made worse by a cloudless summer in the Arctic, the researchers said.
"The Arctic sea ice is the first signal, and the biggest signal, of the effects of rising global temperatures," said Walt Meier, a research scientist at the center.
Data show the sea ice also is thinner. It's breaking up earlier in the spring and is freezing over later in the fall. There are more days with greater expanses of open water.
That changes centuries-old patterns for Alaskans and others living in the Arctic Circle. They're having to alter their land travel routes and how they store food. Traditional hunting is changing, and buildings are collapsing as the permafrost melts. Storm patterns are unpredictable - waves are eroding coastlines.
Some see benefits. The Northwest Passage stays open longer to vessel traffic between Europe and Asia, cutting the voyage from London to Tokyo to 9,950 miles. That voyage via the Suez Canal is 13,000 miles; the Panama Canal route is 14,300 miles. Also, less ice over the Arctic land means more space exposed for oil and gas extraction.

Posted by: lunaoscura on September 22, 2007 08:21 AM

Sadly.............our leaders seem to have veered WAAAAY off course!

Latest Ad being move-on's response to the condemnation........

Congress has vowed to convene a special session this weekend to vote on another condemnation of the latest ad. Preliminary polling of the Senate indicates that the condemnation would pass handily with 80 votes for and 20 votes against. This margin guarantees that there would be no veto from the president.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/21/115032/846

I'm sorry to see AW 'ers squabbling again! AND on WORLD CEASE FIRE DAY no less! We ALL have more in common than not, so no use sniping at each other.
I'm trapped up here where Susan Collins is idolized and they want to impeach Gov. Baldacci (D) for ruining the state. ( It's all HIS fault that Bushinomocs has us strapped) not much intelligent discourse happining!
Peace, QOP

Posted by: on September 22, 2007 10:43 AM

QOP, even with this congress it is hard to believe they would do a special session to condemn a critical ad--they must be serving KoolAid in the capitol cafeteria.

MoveOn is like that wrestler in mythology who rose stronger everytime he was knocked down. Just keep at it, WarHogs.

Funny remark at Firedoglake: "Every time the Bush Administration attacks a critic, an angel gets his wings."

Posted by: Barbara on September 22, 2007 02:15 PM

PS

As I remember, Congress did a special session (on a Sunday) to interfere in the Terry Shiavo case. Guess they have forgotten how that turned out for them.

Posted by: Barbara on September 22, 2007 02:28 PM

dear judi,
you seem to have forgotten that Rox started by calling me out, I had ignored her first post, then when I asked her to cease she tried baiting me and her comments devovled to nasty. So I went after her ego, because that's what all this 'jealousy' thing is about. I also saved many a post where you defended other posters on AW who bad mouthed me and you happily joined right in. Whatever it is that I am doing to make you uncomfortable is something for you to examine. I am not responsible for any thing that touches some nerve within your psyche.
To other posters who sigh and act passive aggressive without being direct in their comments, and triangulated in this situation, that is also not my responsibility.
I sent a private email to Sally and Morgana saying how uncanny it was that on Thurs night I went out to hear music. I told a friend about the cyber situation and her jaw dropped. She knew the infamous Ms Fontana in the 80's, as a pot dealer, skanky groupie, on the edges of the scene and off the wall back then, so what I said from just my impressions of her website were correct.
If you wish to be friendly with her go for it, you are know by the company you keep. I told her to stay away from me and she did not. I will not remain silent when attacked.
ps I'm not a Bhuddist, I have all kinds of feelings and a right to express them. Just because they do not fit some ridiculous criteria that you have within your own mind of the ALL good of eastern philosophies is not my repsonsibility either.

Posted by: bhakti on September 22, 2007 04:10 PM

Used to be a time when i was an active member of many web boards. That is no longer so. Sally's site is the only one i now participate in. Given that, it's damned sad to see the conversation degenerate into she-said-she-said-take-sides-with-me dogma.

You ask us to accept your opinion as the "word," bhakti. That's bull. And you know it.

We ALL espouse our OPINIONS here. And, that's all they are.

I try NOT to take issue with your opinion, simply because i know you'll answer with a no-holds-barred punch, and then label me to boot. Up to now, i've tried to avoid that simply because i admire, respect and immensely enjoy this site and intelligent posters.

Posted by: karen on September 22, 2007 05:01 PM

Seems congress has it backwards. Rather than become their own authority INSIDE and end the funding of this war and everything that goes with it, they chose instead degrade the dignity of office instead by responding to an undignified "ad" from the OUTSIDE. Like the fleeting skirmish on this blog, they've decided to jump into a sandbox filled with toddlers and hit each other with their pails and shovels when life is being lost. The ad could have been much more powerful in it's phrasing, and instead resort to name-calling potshots when their responsibility is to inform so that readers can understand what is happening. I'm fast losing respect for Move-on's use of contributions (they ask me for a contribution twice a week) in such a frivolous way, and think they are undermining this very important cause. We need them and they are f***ing around.
I can't stand this country anymore.

Posted by: patb on September 22, 2007 06:09 PM

bhakti, please just stop.

Posted by: patb on September 22, 2007 06:17 PM

If you enjoy this site Karen opine away, have never interferred with that. Nor asked for sides to be taken and that is what is being projected here and was never said or requested. Others at this site warned AW's the same thing I did about Roxanne, Morgana, CL, Jill G. Why are you not on their case as well? Take responsibiltity for jumping in and judging what you may not know about. It's ok for someone on AW who was banned to come back and bait? And then the person who says stop the personal abuse is now the perpetrator? Give me a break.
Like I said before the buttons I push need to be examined within yourselves, not responsible for your feelings while opining and speaking up for myself.

And if it's just MY opinion about a third party why take it so personal? Why get involved at all? Just pass over my posts. Will not bother me. I will NOT be anyone's doormat for personal abuse which it was/is becoming. The Universe helped me out the other night, showing me how all connected we are, and to rely on my instincts. Whether anyone wishes to believe it or not, why would I care, it was my experience, I was there.

I really wish the cajones thrown at me are better projected onto to people who truly anger us , that is our current admin.
Please take responsibilty for butting in, that's what adults do, childish behavior is running to see the fight, interferring and escalating it.


Posted by: bhakti on September 22, 2007 06:52 PM

Please stop triangulating me patb

Thanks!

Posted by: bhakti on September 22, 2007 06:53 PM

I have not read what the argument is about here. I'll just generically ask: What is it ya'll value more than the outcome of the argument? OK, mediator hat off........Love all of you, Timmy J

Posted by: Timmy J on September 22, 2007 07:20 PM

Seems to me that the "squabbling" on our site is a reflection of what is going on in the larger areana.

Posted by: clymela on September 22, 2007 07:30 PM

I think a certain amount of squabbling is healthy myself. It clears the settled dust and cobwebs away. I always look to who drops in to start it and then leaves. Those who stay are those who care. No brainer.

Posted by: lunaoscura on September 22, 2007 07:50 PM

I wish we could move on to topics we're all interested in.

Posted by: patb on September 22, 2007 07:54 PM

Freedom of Speech is a great topic. Could it be that MoveOn's ad has unleashed some pent up backlash about Freedom of Speech issues? It just might have.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/education/14178899/detail.html

Profane Language Puts Student Editor's Job On Line

Editorial Raises Eyebrows, Controversy At CSU

FORT COLLINS, Colo. -- A four word editorial with a four letter word in it is sparking a spirited discussion on free speech at Colorado State University.

The Rocky Mountain Collegian published an editorial on page 4 of the paper Friday which read "Taser this ... F*** Bush."

The expletive was spelled out.

The last two words were in bold type, larger than most headlines. A caption below said, "this column represents the views of the Collegian's Editorial Board."

"I think they went over the line a little bit, but it's free speech and they're allowed to write what they want," one student told 7NEWS.

The editorial comes fresh on the heels of freedom of speech issues that arose from the Tasering of a Florida student at a Sen. John Kerry speech.

Collegian Editor David McSwane said a group of seven student editors discussed the statement for several hours before agreeing to publish it.

"We felt it illustrated our point about freedom of speech," McSwane told 7NEWS. "I think we could write 250 words and ramble on and I don't think anyone would pay attention."

[snip]
A special meeting of the BSC is set for Tuesday at 7 p.m. to hear comments regarding the editorial.

McSwane said he knows his job is on the line.

"I plan to be honest," he said. "Our intentions weren't 'Hey, let's upset the community.' It was, 'Let's get college students to talk about freedom of speech.'"

Posted by: lunaoscura on September 22, 2007 08:12 PM

In the spirit of the moment:
http://www.filmstripinternational.com/index.php?asshole

Posted by: shylurker on September 22, 2007 08:16 PM

Shylurker, did you notice the counter under the video you posted (your're an ass***) shows that there have been almost 4/5 million hits on that page?!

Posted by: lunaoscura on September 22, 2007 08:53 PM

It should read 4.5 million.

Posted by: lunaoscura on September 22, 2007 08:54 PM

Over at Firedoglake see the blog interview with Progressive Sam Bennett-D/PA. Sam's a sane lady who keeps keeping on despite sabotaging moves by repukes. This new progressive movement is where my money's going, both directly to aspiring new faces and at ActBlue.com where you can see, read about and support their efforts to displace the multitudes of Bluedogs who allow the theft of our country with every underhanded two-faced vote.

Posted by: patb on September 22, 2007 09:14 PM

Over at Firedoglake see the blog interview with Progressive Sam Bennett-D/PA. Sam's a sane lady who keeps keeping on despite sabotaging moves by repukes. This new progressive movement is where my money's going, both directly to aspiring new faces and at ActBlue.com where you can see, read about and support their efforts to displace the multitudes of Bluedogs who allow the theft of our country with every underhanded two-faced vote.

Posted by: patb on September 22, 2007 09:15 PM

Our Blue Dog is wavering...........we are going to visit him on Weds!
He hasn't been voting with the rest of them, in spite of being on the list.......
Michaud
QOP

Posted by: on September 22, 2007 09:46 PM

Ha! Ha! Shy, a friend turned me on to that masterpiece of humor on a day I felt so helpless I could barely breathe. FOMCLMAO!!!

Posted by: patb on September 22, 2007 10:01 PM

QOP, at that point even if (especially if) Bluedogs begin voting like actual dems they can no longer be trusted since they've already proven that. Out they go regardless! A Bluedog is a Ded Dog, once they turn on 'ya.

Posted by: patb on September 22, 2007 10:05 PM

On the Blackwater issue, just a thought: what kind of watery-looking substance is black?

The truth is usually hidden in plain sight.

Posted by: Dave on September 22, 2007 10:58 PM

Could you mean Awl, Dave? Naomi Klein has a 4part interview on UTube about the Big Picture and where Blackwater fits in. Her main concern is what happens to an out-of-power republican party that has a fully operational military force of their own with 199,000 members that we know of.
Apparently there are 4 more wannabe mercenary contractors here in the u.s..
Jeremy Scahill, the most intelligent and informed journalist on the Blackwater beat also has a 4part forum on UTube you've just gotta see if you haven't seen it yet. So instructive I can't express my gratitude enough for these two people alone.

Posted by: patb on September 22, 2007 11:30 PM

I've moved!

http://carolduhart.blogspot.com

Posted by: Carol on September 23, 2007 01:22 AM

The Co-founder and CEO of Blackwater, Erik Prince, is a Born Again Christian who interned in Poppy Bush's whitehouse and campaigned for Pat Buchanan. He has ties to the Family Research Center with the likes of Gary Bauer, and James Dobson. God must be pleased.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1878924

Posted by: lunaoscura on September 23, 2007 01:42 AM

Erik Prince was born 6-6-69 in Dover,DE. No luck so far looking for the equally sulphurous Cofer Black birth data, ya know, the one with the "heads on spikes" and "flies on their eyeballs" charming approach to inflicting suffering upon your latest Evil projection.
Another is the good looking so he can get away with anything cruel and darkly immoral, Paul Bremer 9-30-41 Hartford CT.

Posted by: patb on September 23, 2007 02:59 AM

For what it's worth, Eeeek Prince has Jupiter at 26 Virgo, Uranus at 29 Virgo, Pluto at 22 Virgo and NN at 26 Pisces. Moon is either in late Aquarius or early Pisces. Trans Pluto currently hitting those Virgo planets, and up-coming Saturn trans. due to hit in a year or so Hmmmmm. Any astrologers want to take a look at this? I'm just a rank amateur. Actually, not even that.

Garry, Garry, please check in!

Posted by: shylurker on September 23, 2007 03:08 AM

Re:Erik Prince data. Got my info at Wikipedia.
I think Holland MI is right, but wonder about the year. In the '70 chart there are no planetary directions or notable points suggesting the death of his wife. The '69 chart looks more like the chart of a billionaire's son. Just a thought on that, anyone else?

Posted by: patb on September 23, 2007 03:20 AM

Did you all notice the 666 9 does it count with an extra number on the end?
June 6-
1636 - banished ( from Mass Bay Colony,) puritan Rodger Williams establishes Providence RI ( complete religious freedom)
1844- london ymca founded
1944 - D Day.invasion of Normandy
1949 - First publication of Orwell's 1984
1962 - Beetles first audition for EMI record producer George Martin
1968 - Robert Kennedy assassinated
1989- funeral of Ayatollah Khomeini
Banner Day wouldn't you say?
QOP

Posted by: on September 23, 2007 04:06 AM

Eye-opening "art":

http://chrisjordan.com/current_set2.php?id=7

Posted by: patb on September 23, 2007 04:58 AM

Last comment this eve. Re Erik Prince's b'day.
It WAS indeed mentioned at wiki that his real year is '69. Probably posts the '70 year for viewing because EVERYBODY notices the 666 and probably gives him s*** about it,eyeballing him sideways for pointy ears. (tough to hide whut yo' is, sonny boy).

Posted by: patb on September 23, 2007 05:30 AM

That was hilarious Shy, thanks for the laugh.

Several years ago I did some research into Eric Prince when Blackwater first showed up in Iraq, unfortunately I didn't save any of it, but if I remember the 1969 date worked for the death of his wife and the Pluto squares to his Virgo sure fits the present problems he is having and it doesn't look like his troubles are over. Particularly with Saturn going into Virgo and Uranus marching through Pisces, he has an interesting few years ahead of him. Blackwater is a nasty piece of work and the Jupiter to Uranus in the natal chart indicates a fair measure of unexpected good luck, but not with the Pluto/Saturn/Uranus transits rolling over his.

I expect his Moon is in Pisces because it's in Pisces from midnight to midnight on June 6, 1969 and with the square to Mars, he is one angry person. Saturn is going to do a real number on him when it hits his Mercury, Moon and Mars. You know the old saying "you live by the sword," well you know the rest. He's a mean one and there was a great deal of damage done to him when he was growing up, this person is a real cold and angry man, but very intelligent and cunning. This administration seems to be stacked with them.

Posted by: Sally on September 23, 2007 06:06 AM

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/?last_story=/opinion/greenwald/2007/09/22/telecom_immunity/

Former Clinton officials lobby for amnesty for FISA lawbreaking

Posted by: Pat C on September 23, 2007 06:42 AM

Sally, don't you think the moon in pisces sensivity theme is getting a little thin when you see just HOW MANY people, ie., Rush Limbaugh, Dick Cheney...(tomorrow I'm bringing a list because this is just too much)blow the whole pisces moon/fragile flower theory.
BTW, really psyched to find Cofer Black's data. Only know he was born in 1950, do you have a resource?

Posted by: patb on September 23, 2007 06:44 AM

There is no doubt that a Pisces Sun or any personal planet can be one sick person, no boundaries and anyone connected to someone with a personal planet in Pisces needs to hope that person uses the energies to walk on the side of kindness and love, because if they don't that's where you get torture, because they don't have any compass to guide or stop them.

I don't have Cofer Black's birthdate, like I said I got rid of all my work around Blackwater

Posted by: Sally on September 23, 2007 01:09 PM

Heard confirmation for an old "conspiracy" theory yesterday. I find it interesting on several counts. I'll follow up after the story.

The woman i spoke with used to live in Miami, work in a physician's office. People living there started to connect flu outbreaks to small aircraft flying over prior to them. The physician she worked with told her that pharmaceuticals were spreading viruses in order to test new durgs. This was quite common over intensely populated areas).

This story was interesting to me because of the timing. I've noticed a direct link between what i hear (if it seems highly unusual, and what i read that usually links to some future event.

This morning, reading about the "dark" side of Pisces nature, i'm wondering how Neptune will be playing in her nefarious ways?

http://www.rense.com/general67/avianflufright.htm

Posted by: karen on September 23, 2007 01:59 PM

Cap'n Sally, thanks ever so much for sharing your insights about Eeeeek Prince. Very interesting.

Posted by: shylurker on September 23, 2007 03:09 PM

Sally, good morning! Cheery equinox! Thanks for your Look at Erik the odd and comments about the pisces twist. Pisces venus does seem to have a naively sweet kindness tho, with boundaries to be discovered. It really does seem to have this component of how well-evolved a human one is overall.
S'okay Re Cofer, I meant info "resource" as in a good pool you know about that you use to find data. We just want to know if and when they're up for a bucket of cosmic justice. This upcoming mutable cross definitely spells an end to the power of many of these holders of the darkside...we just want to see the key scaries out early, boy howdy.

Karen, probably experimenting on the public does happen. Yet somehow when it comes to guys like Rense it's always anecdotal, on the level of no facts or proof and National Enquirer bozo theories designed to provoke anxiety. Some people get off on scaring people out of some twisted enjoyment in provoking fear. Sites such as his really anger me. Parasitic bottom-feeder such people are.

Posted by: patb on September 23, 2007 04:02 PM

One more comment on the topic of theory, especially when we have to be alert to not let these things scare us and drain our strength.
A good slogan and antidote is the phrase, "Oh, really?".

Posted by: patb on September 23, 2007 04:20 PM

Thought the Betray-us ad was brilliant!
Short, to the point sound byte. Talk about bite! No wonder it got the hypocites' panties in a bunch.

Posted by: on September 23, 2007 04:24 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20070922/rising-seas/

Rising Seas Likely to Flood U.S. History

SETH BORENSTEIN | September 22, 2007 10:32 PM EST |

— Ultimately, rising seas will likely swamp the first American settlement in Jamestown, Va., as well as the Florida launch pad that sent the first American into orbit, many climate scientists are predicting.

In about a century, some of the places that make America what it is may be slowly erased.

Global warming _ through a combination of melting glaciers, disappearing ice sheets and warmer waters expanding _ is expected to cause oceans to rise by one meter, or about 39 inches. It will happen regardless of any future actions to curb greenhouse gases, several leading scientists say. And it will reshape the nation.

Rising waters will lap at the foundations of old money Wall Street and the new money towers of Silicon Valley. They will swamp the locations of big city airports and major interstate highways.


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Storm surges worsened by sea level rise will flood the waterfront getaways of rich politicians _ the Bushes' Kennebunkport and John Edwards' place on the Outer Banks. And gone will be many of the beaches in Texas and Florida favored by budget-conscious students on Spring Break.

That's the troubling outlook projected by coastal maps reviewed by The Associated Press. The maps, created by scientists at the University of Arizona, are based on data from the U.S. Geological Survey.

Few of the more than two dozen climate experts interviewed disagree with the one-meter projection. Some believe it could happen in 50 years, others say 100, and still others say 150.

Sea level rise is "the thing that I'm most concerned about as a scientist," says Benjamin Santer, a climate physicist at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California.

"We're going to get a meter and there's nothing we can do about it," said University of Victoria climatologist Andrew Weaver, a lead author of the February report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change in Paris. "It's going to happen no matter what _ the question is when."

Sea level rise "has consequences about where people live and what they care about," said Donald Boesch, a University of Maryland scientist who has studied the issue. "We're going to be into this big national debate about what we protect and at what cost."

more...

Posted by: lunaoscura on September 23, 2007 05:25 PM

lunaoscura are you wondering too why scientists, (depending on who they're working for) project waaaaay into the future (subconscious message: we can keep doing what we're doing 'cuz we've got 100-150 years), THEN a massive ice shelf breaks off the size of Texas, entire islands engulfed into the ocean, thousands year-old human/natural dependencies wiped out in less than a decade...

You might like the "art" of Chris Jordan link above to underscore the drift.

Posted by: patb on September 23, 2007 05:49 PM
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