Sally,
I posted a little while ago in the last thread.
Wow! That was psychic to your opening line!
Great article, this is very symbolic of the wave of feminine energy I talk about. A wave curls inward before it rolls out towards the shore.

>

I do not mind considering Pluto an asteroid goddess since the asteroids are small yet their effect on a chart, especially for prediction is jaw droppingly accurate.

The quote did not go through for some strange reason.

>

How Plutonian indeed!

Pluto conjunct Black Hole 26 Sag Galactic Center.
A BH takes an energy in and transforms it to something new then the energy re-emerges.
How Plutonian!
eom + .02

Posted by bhakti at August 24, 2006 08:23 PM
Post

Well, I don't care what they say about Pluto: I'm a bit of a die-hard fan and won't let go. They can give it any moniker they want, Pluto is a force by any other name. Well, I am a Scorpio... I guess that would account for it: what is not aspected by Pluto or the 8th house is in Scorpio... so I wouldn't have any emotional investment in it, NO... BUT Pluto is no less a God for this baby boomer!!!

I love Pluto... but then I am weird.

But then I would say that about Pluto, after all, Pluto is on Sagittarius 25: A Chubby Boy on His Hobbyhorse and Pluto does seem to be a favourite energy of mine.

And I'm unlikely to get off my hobbyhorse in the short term - not until a lot of people alter their attitudes towards the energy that is Pluto.

Greetings from Oxford, England
Lynda

I still don't understand why they did this. Oh, well. In the meantime, here's Pluto's concession speech:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/8/24/102112/777

I have a healthy fear of Pluto (but I love it too) with my Mars/Pluto conjunction at 20/22 Leo in the 9th house. Saturn will hit that place soon, and knock me not once but three times.

Sally, I LOVE your article. So profound! The part about our soon-to-be transformation echoed true and shows again your psychic power and ability to search and find the good in all things.

As a yogini (female yoga student) I am fascinated by Shiva/Pluto. Have Scorpio on the 8H cusp (ala Lynda Hill) with Venus conjunct Pallas in there. Tr Pluto is still in my 9H until it hits 6 Cap at my Sun/Mercury/MC.

While it sits on the GC maybe Pluto's symbology can be transformed with a new twist of feminine energy as the Kali/Shiva. Shiva represents non-duality and duality simultaneously. Maybe the Plutonian atomic energy that arose at the time the 'planet' was discovered might also dissipate. We can always hope.

And for all you Scorpios out there, (Sun, Moon, Ascendant, and Mars) this is a signal that you are to dig into that yawning cave of healing, power and strength and exercise that vast power within all Scorpios to heal humanity of their grief and pain whether you are represented by an individual, cause or country. For your time has come and continues to gain strength, all Scorpios must walk out of being or thinking like a victim.

I don't know what to think or say here. My father, a Scorpio born 11/2/21 is going into a care facility for Alzheimer's patients tomorrow at 1PM. We don't know how to tell him this. "Oh, by the way, we are taking you to a care facility and leaving you there never to return to your home ever again..the one you built by hand and have lived in since 1948."

Also, guess who are the elected ones? All the females in the family. Nary a male in the bunch. the 3 brothers are "busy".

Patricia

And for all you Scorpios out there, (Sun, Moon, Ascendant, and Mars) this is a signal that you are to dig into that yawning cave of healing, power and strength and exercise that vast power within all Scorpios to heal humanity of their grief and pain whether you are represented by an individual, cause or country. For your time has come and continues to gain strength, all Scorpios must walk out of being or thinking like a victim.

I don't know what to think or say here. My father, a Scorpio born 11/2/21 is going into a care facility for Alzheimer's patients tomorrow at 1PM. We don't know how to tell him this. "Oh, by the way, we are taking you to a care facility and leaving you there never to return to your home ever again..the one you built by hand and have lived in since 1948."

Also, guess who are the elected ones? All the females in the family. Nary a male in the bunch. the 3 brothers are "busy".

Patricia

'scuse me. I thought it didn't take.

Patricia

Patricia, I have had to do what you are doing with my mother and it hurts and it's hard. Not everyone will make it through a "transition" that is what we want, but they will make it through a transition. My sister, brother and I found the beauty and value in Mom as she became, not as she was and the process was not an easy one. I know that it always seems to fall to the "women" the men simply cannot deal with very well with this kind of thing. I hope and pray your family will be surrounded with peace and love. And I applaud you for taking this brave step where your father can get the care he needs. No one could say anything to me that eased my pain when my father died or when my mother became so ill, but in time I found beauty in the situation and I grabbed hold of it and held it to me every day, I still do. Take care.

Thank you, Sally. I really appreciate that.

Patricia

awwww.... hugs, Patricia. And to you dear Sally as well. Nothing else to say.

Yes!! Thak you.
I have decided that no matter what the scientists say I know about Pluto ( born when the moon was less than 1 degree form pluto) and I will just continue along the path that he showed me. I am sorry that right now some people don't want to know him but I do and even if he doesn't lead to transformation he certainly shines a light on where the cleaning should start.

I wrote before I read the posts-my heart is with you Patricia.
There could not have been a purer deliniation of Pluto in our lives.
Pain, catharsis, healing and irrevocable change. Sally, your words are great guides.

I have great faith in Pluto as a way to transform energies. I might not like his rough manner, but I appreciate his non-judgemental power. And, as I said, I will continue to read Pluto because there isn't another planet right now that can explain the massive transformations Pluto brings to a chart when it aspects a planet.

The Galactic Center is in the Milky Way, a huge black hole, if Pluto stops having an impact on a chart, and it's power diminished while it travels the Milkey Way, we, as astrologers, will know soon enough with our clients and research.

I have a Scorpio chart signature, several planets in Scorpio and all the planets not in Scorpio that are ruled by other signs, the rulers of THOSE signs are in Scorpio, plus a Pluto/Sun mutual reception, so I have great respect for Pluto.

Patricia,
What a tough thing you face tomorrow. This isn't much comfort probably, but I have a friend who has been through this on her own. She is an only child and her Mother died of cancer some years ago. It is good that you have female family support,even if the brothers aren't available.
My closest brother was born 11/2/50. My soul mate ( however not a mate in this lifetime) was also born 11/2/42, my Father 10/28/13, 1 Grandson, 11/4/91, 1 Grandaughter 11/10/95...........My moon 23 scorpio, 6th house. I used to say I had a PHD in scorpio, until pluto in scorpio went through my life like Katrina thru N.O.
"dig into that yawning cave of healing, power and strength and exercise that vast power within all Scorpios to heal humanity of their grief and pain whether you are represented by an individual, cause or country."
But reconstruction has begun!
Very informative reflections on pluto!
QOP

Clearly, the power of Pluto is greater than previouly thought. The presence of the moon Charon which is as large and may be larger in area than Pluto, if not in mass, is there and combined with the the power of Pluto itself. I do not think one can separate the unit which is Pluto and Charon. The combination of these two acting together more than doubles the known energy of Pluto. That an astrologer would stop using Pluto in a chart is a ridiculos idea. I have wondered why the astrologers have been slow to realize that Pluto-Charon is a binary planet. The cosideration of Charon as a separate planet by some scientists was just stupid. Pluto-Charon is a binary planet according to me.
Personally, I think if you lived anywhere else in the solar system except Earth, you would see that Earth and Moon are also acting as binary planet. The energy would act together as a unit for a chart anywhere else in this solar system. Simply stated, the knowledge of the larger moon acting in union with Pluto increases the already known affects of Pluto.
What really shows up in all this is that some people including both astrologers and astronomers have difficulty processing new information and act to limit the power of the new data for purely pesonal psychological reasons like a school board including Intelligent Design in the science class.

It postpones the need to deal with other "known unknowns" like the even larger planets farther out from Pluto.

Now the question is "What about Ceres?" which has been a planet and then was not a planet and then almost became one and is not one yet.

Astrologers must double the power of Pluto in their horoscopes and seriously examine Ceres.
After that we can approach Xena and the others.
IMHO bjt

Patricia,

This may turn out better than you think. There will be the "Plutonian" transition that Sally speaks of, the building of new structures to hold this experience, but it could turn out (and will) very well.

I had to do something similar with my mom. It helped that she was coming out of the hospital after a heart attack as she could be told she needed rehab. What I and my mom's sister did was spend a great deal of time with her. I made her room as cozy, beautiful and comfortable as possible, took her out on weekends (but not home, at least for quite a while, as it would be too painful for her to leave). After a while she became used to the facility and felt safe there. The staff loved her and treated her with affection (it helps to thank them by bringing boxes of candy to the nurses's desk, flowers, etc.). She had little short term memory. She became more like a child, although she never lost her individuality, sense of humor, stubborness. She continued to be witty and kid around. I used to sit next to her and watch movies and TV shows, holding her hand, whether in a chair or on her bed. One or two times she remembered about home and insisted that she wanted to be taken home. That hurt a lot but I managed to be strong and, at the same time, distract her a bit and bring her back to the moment. Sigh...it definitely takes strength but there is great strength in love and, although your heart will hurt, it will also intensify with love for your father and commitment to his well being. It will give you a purpose - to continue the loving bond between you, to make him feel loved and happy. You will look forward to visiting him (most of the time) as much as he looks forward to seeing you guys, and will get to know a whole culture of sweet and precious people who are being taken care of because they can no longer totally do it for themselves. It is a very special experience you are going to have, but the first few steps are always the hardest and are painful (like seeing your child off to school for the first time), but get easier, especially when you see that your dad is surrounded by friends and caring staff and is ok in this interdependent network. It will free your family up, there will be normalcy again, and it should be healthier for all of you. One of the keys is for family members to visit frequently, as well as get to know the staff and be friendly with them. May all of you go with G-d and be filled with Grace.

Sharon

Does anyone know how many women are in that... er, um, exclusive astronomer's club?

* The number of people who consider the Republic Party friendly to religion has dipped below half in the last year, with declines among white evangelicals & white Catholics. ... The number of people who consider the GOP friendly to religion dropped from 55% to 47% — with a 14-pt drop among white evangelical cons & an 11-pt drop among white Catholics, according to the poll by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press. ... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060824/ap_on_el_ge/religion_poll

That s/b ["pink"] evangelicals & ["pink"] Catholics. ;O)

* ...Reich keenly noted this strategy:

In reality, the religious man has become completely helpless... The more helpless he becomes, the more he is forced to believe in supernatural forces that support & shelter him. Thus, it is not difficult to understand that in some situations he is also capable of developing an incredible power of conviction, indeed, a passive indifference toward death. He draws this power from his love of his own religious conviction... borne by highly pleasurable physical sensations. Naturally, he believes that this power stems from "God." In reality, this intense longing for God is the longing that derives from his excitation of sexual forepleasure & clamors for release. Deliverance is & can be nothing other than the deliverance from the unbearable physical tensions which can be pleasurable only as long as they are lost in a [infanticized] fantasized unification with God, ie, with gratification & release. (The Mass Psychology of Fascism, p. 147-8. Italics added.)

This is a good summary of Reich's recurrent argument that mystical & religious emotion in the mainstream faiths is a displacement of repressed sexual energy, which readily deviates toward fascism, socially, & sado-masochism, personally. Faith, he says, is the passion people feel in loving their own convictions. It has little to do with loving God or being loved by God, & a lot to do with narcissism, the root pathology of the Piscean Age. In the religious experience of the masses, disconnection from body & senses charges the believers with zeal, because Eros repressed manifests in the form of disembodied fantasy, but loses none of its original force by this conversion.

"Eros is a mighty daemon," Diotima taught Socrates. She told him that it is the intermediary between the divine & human realms. Eros is like an electric current that can charge our bodies, but it can also charge whatever we may imagine in a disembodied way, & it does so indifferently. In other words, Eros remains the intermediary power whether it connects us corporeally to the Divine, or merely to a fantasy about the Divine. This is why displaced & disembodied expressions of Eros in religion & fascism (the "mystico-military complex," as Reich called it) are so difficult to defeat. ... http://www.metahistory.org/FaithIncarnate.php

astonishing piece of writing!

i am grateful for the call to introspective, healing action while eschewing a sense of victimhood for those of us who do have scorpio prominently in our charts (my moon is scorpio); but i do need to ponder and sort out other aspects in my chart, as they seem to be substantive: pluto's current position is square both my natal pluto and natal saturn (which opposed pluto at birth). yikes, yikes, yikes--i clearly know that something's shaking, things are shifting, and there's SOMETHING i've got to do... just can't hear/see what. yet. i'll get there, but dang--right now, these sure do feel like some squirrely-ass days!

best regards to all!

anyhow, again, terrific piece. i don't say hi often here, but i do read with dedication, and i'm grateful for all the insight hard work and compassion that goes into this site.

There are 10 types of people on Earth. Those who understand binary and those who do not.bjt

betsy! you just gave me chills: i'd never heard that (very clever) "10 kinds of people" statement until just two days ago, when someone posted it in response to a short thread i started at daily kos with a silly robot drawing of mine:

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2006/8/22/232213/724/1#1

I had to answer the phone and the door. I am sorry my joke did not work as it was supposed to the next one after my other post.bjt

Betsy righty'o one and zero binary math

Mr. Kite, I love your cartoon and I have had a great lot of fun with Pluto on Daily Kos, which is good since I live in China and their jokes are not funny to me as they depend on a picture writing which I can not read.bjt

Personally, I think the astronomers have been downright snooty, arrogant and thick-headed about the whole "planet review" process. It's quite a stretch to say if they were doing this in any way to smite the intelligent design folk, or even those of us in the study of astrology, but they certainly come off as being as stubborn, backwards and foolish as the extremist religious fundamentalists they very often face off against.

Someday, I think humanity will discover that there are so many, many objects in the heavens that defy the current narrowER definition of what a planet is or isn't, that they'll have no choice but to reconsider for something more broad and encompassing

At any rate, as far as I'm concerned, Pluto is still Pluto. I can't explain why I have such an affinity for it, but I do. Natally, it's in my fourth house, now transiting my sixth. My only natal planet link to Scorpio is Uranus. My Sun is in Taurus, my Moon is in Capricorn, Cancer Ascendant... With few exceptions, most of the closest people in my life have been Lunar Scorpios. The Plutonian energy has turned my life completely inside out, and upside down a few times, nearly "killing" me in the process, in a manner of speaking. I wouldn't have it any other way. And I'm not going to deny its' existence now.

What I'm really disappointed about, however, is the eventual name of UB313/Xena. There's quite a case and a considerable amount of sentiment for it being Persephone (even with the name already belonging to an asteroid). But with the current reactionary line of thinking among astronomers, who knows what they'll come up with? They may as well keep it "UB313" since it's not a "planet" after all...

mrkite, I loved your cartoon and Betsy the "10" types of people those who understand binary and those who don't." Very good. And mrkite, omg, I had a pluto square my pluto all being squared by Taurus and what a ride that was. Anyway, what I think you might get with that Saturn/Pluto/Pluto set up is an excerbation of being or feeling on the defensive, it will assist in self-discipline (good time for mediation on what you want from life) but the defensiveness will be there, actually there won't be any reason to be defensive except in your perception of events that happen around you. Focus instead on the self-discipline, good grief you could practically levitate with these aspects.

NEO, is your Uranus in Scorpio or conjunct Pluto? Uranus is exhaulted in Scorpio.

New Orleans still needs help, please visit the website "Peace Takes Courage."

http://www.peacetakescourage.com/index2.php?subaction=showcomments&id=1156295090&archive=&start_from=&ucat=&page=blog

Sally, my natal Uranus is in Scorpio (14Sco43 Rx), in my fifth house. My natal Pluto is in Libra (14Lib43 Rx) in my fourth house. Could either of these placements explain my affinity/attraction towards Pluto and Plutonian types?

All this Pluto stuff makes me wonder . . . why doesnt astrology reflect the influence of man made satellites and space stations. They would have the same kind of gravitational pull (or they couldnt stay in orbit) and would have some sort of energy field - - all matter has energy. For that matter, why is it just the matter that rotates around in the skies that has so much influence on us - - why not all the things we surround ourselves with - - like the books on the shelf that i am staring at. . .

Pluto Demoted
Officially no longer a planet
August 24, 2006

The Astrological Ramifications
- in my opinion
Nick Anthony Fiorenza
Copyright © 2006 Nick Anthony Fiorenza, All Rights Reserved

At the closing ceremony of the 2006 International Astronomical Union (IAU) General Assembly in Prague, with over 2500 astronomers participating in the discussions of many astronomical issues, the announcement was made on the final voting regarding the status of Pluto.

Due to the discovery over the last few years of several astronomical bodies in our solar system similar to Pluto in characteristics, including size, the question arose about including these new bodies (with obviously more yet to be discovered) as planets, or to classify them differently and re-classify Pluto in the process.

As a result, the vote was to reclassify Pluto as a "dwarf planet," now recognized as the prototype of this new category of trans-Neptunian objects.

The IAU press release can be found here:

http://lunarplanner.com/Snippets/snippet.06.08.24-Pluto-D.html

PRAGUE, Czech Republic (AP) -- Leading astronomers declared Thursday that Pluto is no longer a planet under historic new guidelines that downsize the solar system from nine planets to eight.

articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/astronomers-give-pluto-the-boot-as/20060824050509990019?ncid=NWS00010000000001

Hello readers;

I am not surprised of the outcome knowing that in 2,500 astronomers from 75 nations attended the conference only about 300 showed up to vote. This mean, 2200 others people did not vote and that is a significant number that could easily have turned the balance around. It’s really a shame that they still proceed with the vote knowing that 2200 other person were missing and that is an injustice in itself. Since when numbers don’t mean anything to science when science is all about numbers?

Right from there common sense dictates the vote is NOT effective. Imagine if any politician running for office found out that 2200 votes were missing in the ballot? But you see that is something they will not talk about and it’s simply disgusting and even unlawful.

Realize also that this vote is coming from a bunch of “educated” mental snobs who have absolutely NO clue of the spiritual values of the planet Pluto and its vital role in our solar system.
I am not surprised of this conclusion knowing that 99.9% of the entire world’s population (especially scientists) does not remotely possess cosmic consciousness.

http://www.drturi.com/news/1156502646.html

This is a very interesting short article about the National Embarrassment's inability to put together a coherent sentence (expressing a coherent idea). I tend to think there are definitely chemicals involved as well, but the author makes excellent points:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/8/24/22043/1891

I like to use a grey matter metaphor when considering the entire cosmos and the planetary bodies we know and have named, and those we do not yet know. As we only use ten percent of our brain's capacity, at this time in human history we only consciously realize a small bit of the planetary pull on our body/minds here on earth. Just because Pluto has been demoted, and thousands of other bodies yet undiscovered, does not mean that they fail to affect us. When Sedna was discovered and all my skeptic-friends said "See, won't this throw off the whole astrological pantheon?" I said, no way, it just makes it richer and better -- more wisdom to mine.

BTW -- my Pluto is in the 12th in Virgo and I've got no real Scorpio other than Saturn/Mercury in my 8th -- wish I had more! Pluto's been trining my sun for the last two years and I haven't yet discovered the transit's positive promises -- still waiting....

Just found this via Stariq -- an NPR audio clip of Robert Hand regarding the possible demotion of Pluto, recorded a few days ago:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5697880

I have never thought of planets as "doing" anything to me rather the planets and their positions tell me something about how the wind is blowing and I take the advice of my ancestors and companions as to what provisions to make not to stretch my metaphor until it tears.
I have always understood planets to be parts of this thing we call the universe, life, god.the tao. I think of astrology as a kind of meditation, a tool for gathering consciousness up in a container that helps reveal the strongest currents and the shorelines.
Thank you everyone for all your meditations on pluto

I think this whole thing about reclassifying Pluto is a bunch of flap-doodle and will not fly. Er, orbit. Apologies, clymela, for the lack of eloquence. (I do have Scorpio rising, however.)

So now we have Dennis Hastert nullifying the election in San Diego by swearing in Republican Brian Bilbray 17 DAYS BEFORE the San Diego election was certified. The San Diego Registrar uses that as his defense against a lousy election with voting machines going home with poll workers and thousands of ballots assigned to random precincts. To top it off, a lawyer on Bob Ney’s Committee (the Rep. Bob Ney of Ohio 2004 fame) writes the Judge in San Diego deciding the case directly. Not good form, especially when he delayed delivery of the letter to plaintiff’s attorneys (the citizens suing for the rotten election).

Please get this out as soon as you can. It’s a “rigged game.”

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0608/S00316.htm

Congressional Election Nullified – Nobody Noticed

Speaker of the House Nullified San Diego Congressional Race

More….

Pat C Says:
August 25th, 2006 at 7:21 am
From Paul Lehto:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132×2796949

From Brad Friedman:

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=3325

http://www.planetwaves.net/contents/wsj.html

Wallstreet Journal

Pluto’s Demotion Divides Astrologers, Troubles Scorpios

The Minor-Planet Faction Takes the News in Stride;
Astrolabe Adjusts Charts

* ["Black"] students ordered to give up seats to [pinks] - Status of Red River Parish bus driver is unknown

COUSHATTA -- Nine ["black"] children attending Red River Elementary School were directed last week to the back of the school bus by a [pink] driver who designated the front seats for [pink] children. The situation has outraged relatives of the ["black"] children who have filed a complaint with school officials. Superintendent Kay Easley will meet with the family members in her office this morning.

The NAACP also is considering filing a formal charge with the [pink] US Dept of Justice. NAACP Dist VP James Panell, of Shreveport, said he would apprise Justice attys of the situation this week. He's considering asking for an investigation into the bus incident & other aspects of the school system's ops, incl pupil-teacher ratio as it relates to the numbers of [pink] & ["black"] children, along with a breakdown of the numbers of ["black"] & [pink] teachers employed. ... http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060824/NEWS01/608240332/1002/NEWS

Here we go... we never ever seem to move past pink supremacists' neurosis & other psychopathy... around n' around n' around... same-old same-old same-old...

Does the "demotion" of pluto mean the re-rising of pink in-your-face psychopathology? ;O)

OMG. Not this again! sigh sigh sigh

Very interesting article! My transiting Pluto will soon be conjunct my natal Sun, and I plan to herald this major force of transformation with pride! Pluto is the great transformer, and I have no doubt that its current state of metamorphosis will one day rise to the reawakened and enlightened Phoenix. It also seems so apropro that this is occurring at this time, because Pluto in its detriment signifies abuse of power. Doesn't its' "disappearance" from our solar system signify the covert, corrupt, and abusive Bush administration? Are we to learn something from this?

Mebbe the violent & violative pinks-to-the-front-of-the-bus is just one example of pluto's way to make us understand that this supremacist bidness has never been admitted or corrected or healed.

http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/08/who-decides-what-us-will-do-about-iraq.html

Who decides what the U.S. will do about Iraq and Iran?

“A somewhat overlooked part of President Bush’s Press Conference this week was his comments strongly suggesting that he believes only he—and not the Congress—has the power to decide when the war in Iraq ends, as well as whether we will begin a new war with Iran. All of the debates we are having about what to do about Iran and Iraq are meaningless if the President believes (as he seems to) that all power to decide these matters rests with him.

snip

The theories of executive power embraced by the administration leave little doubt that they believe, at least in theory, that decisions about whether to go to war against Iran, or to end the war in Iraq, are for the President alone to make, and that Congressional authorization is unecessary to attack Iran, and for the same reason, Congress cannot end the war in Iraq.

snip

When speaking about Iraq at his Press Conference this week, the President seemed to make rather clear that he believes Congress has no role to play in decisions concerning when wars begin and end… [Bush used}very deliberate wording; he went out of his way to point out that the only thing Congress could do to “try” to compel a withdrawal of troops is to cut off funding. The President clearly has been involved in discussions where it was told to him that he does not need Congressional authorization to fight wars and that Congress cannot force him to end a war by voting, for instance, to revoke the 2002 Authorization to Use Military Force in Iraq. Clearly, the President believes he can stay in Iraq even if such authorization is revoked.”

More….

Posted on Starlight News:

Pluto vote ‘hijacked’ in revolt

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5283956.stm

A fierce backlash has begun against the decision by astronomers to strip Pluto of its sta-tus as a planet.

...the lead scientist on NASA’s robotic mis-sion to Pluto has lambasted the ruling, calling it “embarrassing”.

And the chair of the committee set up to oversee agree-ment on a definition implied that the vote had ef-fec-tively been “hijacked”.

Alan Stern, who leads the US space agency’s New Horizons mis-sion to Pluto and did not vote in Pra-gue, told BBC News: “It’s an awful definition; it’s sloppy science and it would never pass peer review – for two reasons.

“Firstly, it is impossible and con-trived to put a dividing line between dwarf planets and planets. It’s as if we declared people not people for some ar-bi-trary reason, like ‘they tend to live in groups’.

more…

See! Toll-ja so at 3:20 above. I think the astronmers involved were actually astronomoroners. Or maybe VOC. Or something.

Stefanie, you're right. Planets are kind of like a weather report (is it a sunny, a rainy, a tornado, earthquake etc kind of day or week) they tell me in essence how I might want to dress, if I want to dress and if I need an umbrella, (right now with Saturn/Neptune square my Mercury I am in kind of a low pressure) It's never what events are happening to us that's important, it's our response to events that is the telling key. So what are our strengths and weaknesses to respond to the events in our lives. The planets don't care about ME, but if there is a tornado coming and my mathematical coordinates happen to correspond to the mathematically coordinates of the tornado, I am likely going to have to deal with that tornado.

In the last several weeks since the serious conversations about Pluto began I have talked to my network of astrologers all over the world and none of them are divided on it. They will continue to read Pluto as part of a chart and watch for outcomes. The impact for these astrologers isn't what a body of astronomers in Prague have decided, it's the fact that Pluto is in the Milky Way and a black hole right now and will it's impact on events be as powerful. We don't know. There has been 76 years of study and research and observation that has gone into the impact of Pluto (before 1930 and after) and unless they are a very new astrologer, or lacking in a firm foundation, astrologers are not going to throw those 76 years over.

Vedic astrology doesn't even accept Uranus and Neptune as having impact, much less Pluto. Those outer planets work on the inner and subtle planes to shift and change the collective. Some of the asteroids they were talking about making planets take up to 10,000 years to go around the Zodiac, not much immediate impact there, so the "intense" discussion by some astrologers have no firm foundation in which to judge, but I certainly am not going to throw Pluto out based on a whim and political expediency, and most professional astrologers I know around the world aren't going to either.

Thank you Sally for the wonderful article on Pluto! I'm an astrologer and a Scorpio, and have Pluto sextile my Sun, Moon, Mercury and Neptune. All of these planets are in Scorpio except the Moon (Libra) and Pluto is in mutual reception with Mercury. I love the Plutonian energy and have always found that this birth configuration has given me continual opportunities (sextile) for physical (Sun), emotional (Moon), mental (Mercury) and spiritual (Neptune) regeneration.

I've always found Pluto to be very significant in charts with prominent Scorpio energy. So...I don't care what the astronomers do with it - I'm keeping it!

Interesting that it was demoted when it was conjunct the Galactic Centre. Scorpio has gone into (further) hiding to work it's healing magic behind the scenes.

Magda, Pluto didn't disappear from the solar system, anymore than the Milky Way has disappeared, it just "potentially" operates in a different manner, and maybe it won't operate in a different manner, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune didn't when they traversed the Milky Way, and I have no reason to believe Pluto will.

I agree with NASA, it was a stupid and arbitrary decision and for scientists and astrologers to be quaking in their boots over this and wringing their hands is ridiculous. A group of astronomers hijacked this meeting, just as a group of "Christians" have hijacked Christianity, and a group of "scientists" hijacked true science, and scientists around the world have said "this is ridiculous."

Typical of Pluto to cause such a ruckus and to rip our concept of the cosmos away so we have to look at the solar system in a different way and a more intense manner, perhaps even finding new value out there that we haven't considered. Neptune has done the same thing in the past 25 years regarding the Oceans, Uranus the Rainforests. "Look at me, look at me" and now we will have to do just that.

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/08/25/new_orleans_housing_fiasco.php

New Orleans' Housing Fiasco

Sally,

Fine article, and your last post sort of answered my question about Pluto, but not totally, which is:

Will Pluto's demotion affect how a void-of-course moon is determined?

If Pluto's not a planet, then the last aspect for today is to Mars, not Pluto, and the moon is already void. If dwarf planets such as Ceres and Xena are also included, then, a last aspect to one of those planets would count. Will astologers have to meet to come up with a consensus? Or will it even matter if there isn't one?

I was glad that NPR chose Robert Hand to talk about Pluto's impending demotion on the day before it was announced. At least NPR took us seriously enough to find one of the very best.

Another wow, Sally! Thank YOU!

Also, you were right on target about Barbaro, Sally. Apparently, he's beginning to heal nicely. Another right-on-target call.

No Pluto doesn't affect the VOC Moon. There cannot be a valid consensus until there has been several years of research and observation. I'm sure we will talk about it, but there won't be a valid consensus (just guess work) for quite sometime. Ceres has always been read into a chart even if not mentioned as has Vesta, Pallas and Juno (all listed as asteroids) there are a ton of things that go into the reading of a chart that are never mentioned just delineated but Zena has a ton of work to be done on that, it takes a long time to traverse so I don't know what impact that will have at all unless you happen to be born with it on a planet. I think Zena is one of the ones that takes over 5,000 years to go around the sun so it would be planets traveling to Zena not the other way around.

Well I'd like to know why those majority 2000+ astronomers didn't attend that conference. No sense for them to be crying if they didn't go to add their vote... even by proxy. Don't they have proxies? Was this conference held in secret at the dead of night like the congress & xianioids are wont to do?

Looks like an awful lot of us on the board are scorpio/pluto types...no surprise...I have scorpio rising with Sun/Saturn, Uranus in the 8th...and pluto conj. Venus/Midheaven and moon in leo.

Probably we are interested in the very stuff that skeptics and scientists call mild entertainment, which, when taken seriously, leads to more seriously deluded ideas.

That is a parphraze from an article from Salon in which a skeptic researcher dumps kaka all over us! (from the article The Joys of Life without God)

PLUS! http://www.democrats.com/node/9854
prosecutor at Nuremburg calls for Bush to be tried.

Sally, thank you for your response to my inquiry and for your enlightened view on Pluto. My mention of Pluto "disappearing" was metaphorical, not physical. In Steven Forrest's book, "The Book of Pluto," he mentions a very interesting aspect of Pluto: "...The secret is so simple to say: the key to unleashing all the high, life-shaping potential of Pluto lies in knowing exactly what you want. And what stands between you and that knowledge is the distorting impact of lies, shame, cruelty, and so forth...to understand it, we must once again make a brief detour into Hades." When I mentioned that Pluto has "disappeared," I meant that it has plunged into the ashes to be reborn again as a new Phoenix; a burning away of the corruption, disillusion, and abuse of power that seems to be rampant in our society and around the world. The timing, to me, could not have been more perfect. Perhaps Pluto's sojourn will create the change we need to get back in track; and in time create a better, saner, and wiser world. Thank you again, Sally, for your outstanding article.

Magda, beautifully put and very inspiriing....

sally--heaps of thanks for the kind words and insights into the transits!

My my my lookie here, bet we don't see any MSM play on this:

Bush and Saddam Should Both Stand Trial, Says Nuremberg Prosecutor

http://news.yahoo.com/s/oneworld/20060825/wl_oneworld/45361383191156511966

I don't really "get" having "trials" for war criminals. In trials, one is ascertaining who actually committed a crime. A war criminal, such as bushagigglingkiller n' buddies, committed their unspeakable crimes in front of the whole world... with piles of bodies bearing witness. The world should simply hogtie these monsterous creatures & hang 'em.

(...tho I much more favor getting out & spiffin' up some French guillotines...)

Well I'll tell ya JoannaOregon I sure don't know why the world has allowed BushCo to get away with this, who knows maybe they're hopeing the American People get the reins of their government back, but in this culture of governmental corruption images of the Roman Senate come to mind. Betcha when the Phoenix Rises from the Ashes we will see that our country has been transformed as well. Wow what a new moon.

* Buffy Sainte-Marie's censored sounds

PHOENIX - Nearly two decades after Cree singer & songwriter Buffy Sainte-Marie's song "Universal Soldier" was released & shipments of her records mysteriously disappeared, the truth of the censorship & suppression by the US ["govt"] became public. ... http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096413424

John Linnen would've fit in very nicely with this group of musician activists, yes?

WhaddaNewMoon indeed, Morgana!

Bush requested that the VA highway department close down the commuter lanes so that he & entourage could leave DC to go to a George Allen fundraiser in VA. My My...VA Hwy dept turned them down. Bush came in by heli instead.

Speaking of freakin idiocy...

Sally, I'm Scorpio Asc and I'll take your challenge. In July of 2002 as T Jupiter was conj my Jup/Uranus conj in 9/cancer, I was doing my walking meditation out a nature filled dike, telling myself once again "I'm walking through the landscape of my consciousness". Boom, cosmic consciousness hits and I leave the planet. The gist of the experience was best put by Shakespear:(My paraphrase and interpretation) We are all actors on this illusory stage. We each choose how the stage will be set-up. It is impossible for us not, all, to be connected through God.....So, in the aftermath of the experience, what to do? How to share? How does one manage the landscape of their consciousness? The folks here http://hooponopono.org/Articles/theres_got_to_be.html have some good hints. I've been practicing their info for 2 days and have had a remarkable improvement in inner peace. Enough so I think the practice will go beyond my near term infatuation with a new idea.........Blessings and nameste'

You remind me of another "I don't get," judi... the world predictably creates laws to prosecute war criminals, then just as predictably, the new batch of world criminals seize power, nullifies all the laws pertaining to them, gives the world The Finger," & around & around & around it goes. Meanwhile, the bodies pile up. How I detest "patriarchy"... a rather bland word for the system under which the malebots get in packs to go off on ANOTHER infinite murderous, stealin', rapin', torturin' rampage. It's all so predictable & ghastly silly.

wow......!
GOP Candidate Says 9/11 Attacks Were a Hoax
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/082506B.shtml
A Republican candidate for the 2nd District congressional seat in New Hampshire said Wednesday that the US government was complicit in the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. In an editorial board interview with the Telegraph on Wednesday, Mary Maxwell said the US government had a role in killing nearly 3,000 people at the World Trade Center and Pentagon, so it could make Americans hate Arabs and allow the military to bomb Muslim nations like Iraq.

tim...I resonated with the hoponopono when JoannaO sent me the article...didn't realize there was a link. thanks!

Joanna...I think the problem is (horatio) in ourselves...we keep thinking that if it is fixed once it will remain fixed (the way I used to think about housework and housecleaning) but it always gets dirty again. YOU have to adjust, not the perps...the perps do what the perps do, like dust and dirt, and keep on coming back.....to be cleaned up again. I suggest an attitude shift before your head blows up needlessly....!

PS...guy I went to high school with in Burlingame, Mark Harmon, was a prosecutor in the Hague about 5 years ago...did the Yugoslavian trials....and if there weren't these criminals, there would be no jobs for the prosecutors and lawyers, would there?

Good one, judi!!

Missy judi... if my haid hasn't blown up by this time, it never will. I'm just not a fan of Hallmark card bland n' sweet syrup metaphysical "attitudes," "adjustments," "lectures," & nice meditations to make me "get along" with an insane "normal"... plutonian that I am. ;O)

Of course, there'd be jobs for lawyers & prosecutors... they just wouldn't be at the Hague... only at countless other places.

In case many of you may not have seen this web site, I think it is a most telling and fascinating look at "Beyond Pluto":

http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/planetlila/

I took a hooponopono workshop 20 years ago and was very impressed by it (I'll bet JudyGem knows about it, having lived in Hawaii), but did not practice it. I think it is good to have almost any spiritual practice - as long as you pick one & go with it.

Saw you mention John Lennon, Joanna....a new movie is coming out - "The U.S. vs. John Lennon." It looks to be a very provocative pro-peace, anti-war movie.

TaHA! I can relate to THIS, however (out of Steven Forrest's Book of Pluto...

Pluto in the 10th...

Truth hurts: the reality of that notion is hard to escape. Certainly, we human beings are fond of rationalization & denial. But there's another observation to sit next to the first one: avoiding the truth hurts even worse. That pair of ideas summarizes much of what we need to understand about Pluto in general.

Truth-avoidance is a popular sport not only o the level of individual psychology. Communities & nations practice it blithely as well. In cynical moments I sometimes think our electoral process boils down to a talent contest in that regard. We might say the same for what often happens in churches.

Lies catch up with us sooner or later, whether we're individuals or countries. And then we go down in flames reading inspirational literature, or we deal bravely with what is actually real. For a community or a nation to follow the higher road, it requires leadership. It requies a courageous woman or man to speak out clearly about popular lies & their costs--& to define a etter way. Such a person may or may not be "charismatic;" he or she may or may not radiate self-confidence & authority. The message matters more than the messenger at such times.

The the community that person addresses may be a town or a nation, or more commonly a segment of the population. Bascially, the 10th hse terrain begins wehre your personal relationships end, & extends from there out troward the horizons of the global village: it may or may not, in other words, involve what we commonly call "fame." But it always involves touching tghe lives of people whom we do not really know on a personal level.

And for [the 10th hse pluto person], your high destiny involves touching that larger community in a plutonian way: representing some fierce truth & fighting the trench wars for its communal realization. (pg 121-22)

October surprise, this year is going to be at NYSE
The stock market tanking by at least 20% could add
on the woes for the repug cons in Nov elections and already down by more than 10% to the other party could become a tail spin for the cons and
then all bets point towards an overwhelming IMPEACHMENT.

Thank you, Sharon, for the Lennon head's up... I'll be watching for that.

In Vedic Astrology their outer planets are Jupiter and Saturn and that's where it stops. There are a ton of exceptions to every rule in Vedic astrology and I've always kind of thought that was necessary because they didn't use planets beyond Saturn to explain a chart. I also think in Western Astrology there are many more cosmic bodies that effect the earth and events and personality of all living things, including human. Because there are more cosmic bodies such as Zena, or asteroids or fixed stars does not discount the orbits of Uranus, Neptune or Pluto. That's the question, do new bodies discovered discount the impact of other planets astrologically? In vedic astrology they have discounted the impact of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto and that is part of the difference between eastern and western astrology. I don't think a recently "named" planet or new understanding of that planet's impact discounts the plantary influences, I see them as expansions to the mathematics we already possess as a chart is delineated. I don't see it as an either or but an additional explanation and unraveling of the why's of events or personalities. A 560 year orbit is pretty long to be of value except as the faster planets move over it, much as we delineate fixed stars now as they relate to a chart.

It is less of a problem for Western Astrologers in "adding to" their understanding of cosmic influences on the earth's events (including people) than there is for Vedic astrologers, however Vedic astrologers with their Saturn limitations have been very successful in predicting earth changes, so they are not to be discounted. As a professional astrologer and a life long student of astrology, in delineating a chart, I use planets, fixed stars, asteroids, mid-points, transits, progressions (including vertex and profection progressions) Returns (including Lunar) harmonics, vedic dasas/bukti's, and a composite, Draconic and pre-natal charts, so you can see adding the potential influence of a few extra planets is not a problem.

Gosh, Raj... you're quite right imo. Seems like if there could be a 24/7 railin' flailin' trumpetin' screamin' EXPENSIVE impeachment over Clinton's lie about his bent penis, which was nobody's bidness, there certainly seems like there could be grounds for impeachment over world criminality, esp omnicide... at least one could think that... mebbe not.

Along with economic problems in this Sept/Oct. surprise, don't rule out elimination of the election and Martial Law imposed. Remember "Bob" he said "there would be a shock in late Aug. to mid-September that would stun the people more than 9/11.

By the way, UB313 went into Aries in 1925 and is now at 21 Aries, so if you have any planets going over that point or natal planets conjuncting how do you think it's working in your life in terms of passion, intensity, transforming, and if it's one of your natal planets at 21 Aries how long have you been at a point of transformation and upheaval? It is in sextile to the US Mars so there might be "opportunity" for growth as an interpretation of what's going on in the world.

Magda, I loved your quote from Steven Forrest's book, It was fabulous and so timely and I think right on. Thank you so much for posting that, hope all read it.

I hope he tries it, Miss Sally... there's a handfull of pluties/olies but exponentially more The People... & we know the areas of the world where The Peoples are already active. All we have to do is... nothing. Enuf of us not go to work... gather quietly (or even with music & dancing) at each town & city & rural court houses &... sit. Everything shuts down.

As the economy tanks, & "darth vaders" are in other people's countries, there'd be nothin' else to do anyway...

Joanna, I'd say that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove and Co absolutely must stand trial at the ICC, if for no other reason than to re-establish a balance of LAW and ORDER in the world that they have all so desperately tried to subvert and destroy since the very moment they STOLE the 2000 elections. That whole lot needs to be made to answer and give account before the entire world for the War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity (and the planet) that they have committed. Their actions must have consequences. For this country to support total open-book investigations and trials into the Bush Administration, the Pentagon and the Republican Party (and when and where necessary, the Dems) is the only way I see that America can ever reclaim its honor.

On an unrelated note, Sally, UB313/Xena has an orbit spanning 556.7 years. It's very close to it's aphelion now. At some point in it's eccentric orbit, it actually will be closer to the Sun than Neptune. Depending upon whose ephemeris you consult, "Xena" began transitioning into Aries in 1922-24, and is currently Rx at 21Aries13. She won't move into Taurus until 2044.

NEO... I certainly appreciate your passion for justice. The war court after WWII didn't seem to do much... nor other wars after. At least if the neocon crowd were face up in the guillotine before the blade came down, they might have SOME idea of consequences... & be an example to other up n' coming warcriminals... mebbe... as they're nutz. And it would give the world a breather before the next cabal popped up as judi suggested (it appears they're like shark's teeth). As for America & its "honor," it's NEVER had any imo... pink supremacist united states of america was conceived in criminality, pushed forth in criminality, & continues criminality to date. USian "honor" as an entity is another lie & fantasy & that's the truth of it. Btw, the US is not THE america... there are several as I recall.

It may also be noteworthy that Xena has a conjunction with Uranus in Aries near the end of the 2010s. Hmmm...

ahhh... Xena is right opp of my sun/chiron in 1st hse... no wonder I always feel so social justice feisty.

lol Xena in my first (aries intercepted) we are Warrior Women hear us roar!

Good point, Joanna. Perhaps the US itself never had any true honor, especially considering this nation's responsibility for the genocide of countless native American cultures in order to get started in the first place.

Still, you raise a very interesting distinction, one that I've noticed has emerged in a few other conversations lately. There is an "America" and a "United States of America". Few realize that the two are (or can be) mutually exclusive. The former is an idea/ideal. The latter is an interpretation of the former, and an attempt to manifest it into reality, at times being successful, and other times not.

Obviously, with the Bushistas and Corporatists running amok, this is not one of those successful periods in time.

This country was always about aiming for the ideal, at times making dramatic leaps forward, but much of the time paying generous amounts of lip service to it (i.e. the oh so trite RW favorite "Freedom isn't free"). I'd say that Latin America and even Mexico look to be a lot closer to honoring that "American" ideal than the USA is right now. Maybe they are giving us a "refresher course"?

Another plutonian voice speaks out...

* ...a woman from Maine whose husband is a fallen soldier. Yesterday bush met with her privately, & news of their mtg was reported in a local Maine paper, the Kennebec Journal. The paper shared few details of the mtg, saying simply that Halley objected to bush's policies & that she said bush responded that there was no point in them having a "philosophical discussion about the pros & cons of the war."

But Halley has just given me a much more detailed account of her mtg with bush. She told me that she went much farther in her criticism of [rez], telling him directly that he was "responsible" for the deaths of American soldiers & that as a "xian man," he should recognize that he's "made a mistake" & that it was his "responsibility to end this." She recounted to me that she was "very direct," telling bush: "As [rez], you're here to serve the people. And the people are not being served with this war." ... http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/aug/25/war_widow_to_bush_youre_here_to_serve_the_people_and_the_people_are_not_being_served_with_this_war

Blackwell, Strickland set series of 4 debates
By Darrel Rowland
The Columbus Dispatch
Friday, August 25, 2006 1:41 PM
Four debates are scheduled between Ohio's major party candidates for governor, including a final one in Columbus, the two campaigns announced this afternoon.

It will be the most gubernatorial debates in at least 24 years for Ohioans.

Specific locations were not revealed, but the campaigns said they would establish guidelines for limited on-site ticketing at each event.

Republican J. Kenneth Blackwell and Democrat Ted Strickland will open the series immediately after the Labor Day weekend, for years a statewide campaign's traditional kickoff.

The first matchup is set for high noon Sept. 5 in Youngstown, with no specific topic. Sponsors include The (Youngstown) Vindicator and WFMJ-TV.

Education will be the topic of the second matchup, Sept. 20 in Cleveland, another nooner. This one is sponsored by the Call & Post and WEWS-TV.

The economy will take center stage for the Oct. 4 confrontation at 7 p.m. in Cincinnati. Sponsors of that gig: the Cincinnati Chamber of Commerce and Debate USA Alliance.

The capital city (Columbus) gets to host the final debate, scheduled for 7 p.m. Oct. 16. The topic is open; sponsors are to be announced.

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/news-story.php?story=207795

Sally, thank you for your kind words and appreciation for the quote I shared from Steven Forrest on Pluto. I am hoping that you can also enlighten me with your views on Pluto's moon--Charon. With Pluto being "demoted", what does this mean for Charon? If Charon is also being "demoted," what does this herald for world and human affairs? I believe Charon was discovered in 1978. Were there any world events during that time that gave call for Charon's influence? Will we see any changes in the near future with Charon's demotion? Your insights and perspectives would be most fascinating.

My husband (Scorpio Sun and Asc) and I (Scorpio Sun, Mercury, Mars, Neptune, North Node) were talking about Pluto's demotion from planet status and a couple of ideas popped into my mind:
Could it be possible that this decision came as a manifestation of the "collective subconcious"
in the form of denial or dread of having to spiritually pay for all the death and destruction brought about by the "machine"(governments, corporations,etc)?
Could this also correlate to the myths of the dying god? Someone mentioned the Phoenix in an earlier post. Isn't the Phoenix also a Scorpio symbol? Could it be that Pluto is ushering us into the next age? 4th/5th deminsion?
Any comments?

Magda, there are as many scientist/astronomers who did not vote and find this ridiculous as there are who voted. Their vote to elevate or demote means nothing and they voted Pluto's Moon Charon to be demoted at the same time, it means nothing. They can demote the Moon but the Moon is still going to go around waxing and waning and impacting the earth, whether it's demoted or not. Pluto is still there, Charon is still there and they are still an influence in respect to astrology and to scientists around the world, so I don't expect any change. Soon after Charon was discovered, we had the Camp David Accords, oil crisis in this country and the following year, we had the Iranian Hostage Crisis, but Pluto was hovering around the US Saturn and squaring the US Sun indicating a very difficult period of time and Pluto showing Saturn "you cannot control everything," and we sure couldn't control the hostage crisis.

Sally, thank you again for your insights and perspective. It would seem appropriate that "things will go on as usual" in cosmic terms where Pluto and Charon are concerned. I was most interested in the deep psychological impact that this recent talk on "demotion" will have on the collective human psyche, and how this will prepare us for the 4/5th dimension. Will our descent into Hades bring about the "test of fire" that we need to resurrect our consciousness and prepare us for full ascent into the next dimension(s)? Has this "demotion" set the stage and groundwork for "our inner work" to begin?

It would seem our descent into Hell has already begun and it would seem hell is within each person on the face of the earth. We are so busy killing each other for oil, land, religion and the killers and killed are riding that wave together right not. It's incredible. I just read that 9 African/American children were sent to the back of a school bus and had to give up their seats for their white schoolmates. Millions of blacks remember those days and that was hell for them. It's possible that we have descended, hopefully Charon or Persephone can persuade Pluto to carry us out of there. Pluto doesn't stay in hell or ask us to stay and the very qualities that Pluto reveals as weaknesses he eventually shows us how to turn them into strengths.

Raven, Scorpio is the only sign with several symbols, 1) the Scorpian 2) the Eagle 3) the Phoenix and 4) the Dove. And yes, the Phoenix arises from the ashes (transmutation) and hopefully into the Dove, bringing healing and peace. There are such powerful myths of transmutation and transcendence around Scorpio that as soon as Uranus was discovered (before Pluto)it was assigned as co-ruler of Scorpio (because it was recognized as a stronger energy than Mars) when Pluto was discovered, it took very little time and research to convince astrologers and astronomers that it ruled Scorpio.

After my own experience with Pluto transiting Scorpio and then opposing my Saturn/Uranus I can testify that Pluto indeed can bring you into an ascent to the 4/5th dimensions, at least carry you higher than you were before its transit. And that's an experience I am sure you have had with all that Scorpio.

I was just readig the new posta and had a thought-perhaps this time of trying to say that Pluto is not a planet is part of our collective denials.
People wanting to go back to an earlier stage of development when "colored people" had to sit at the back of the bus, women knew their place, abortion was never discussed and all the evil was found "over there".
At the public level no one wants to discuss that we slaughter civilians because we can't fight with armies and drop the "big one".
I could go on and on with the denials building up leading us to a very explosive point. Maybe this is why Pluto has to go. He isn't very nice.

I can bear witness to uranus/pluto effects tho, in this case, it was uranus about to transit pluto. When I saw in 1996 that uranus was about to oppose my N saturn/pluto in leo & square N mercury/juno/mars in scorpio, I thot I'm one dead duckie! The only stategy I could think of was Just Let Go. That transit began about 4 years of ecstasy even tho events were difficult & a time of great change. I was in pure joy & rightness with Life, Light & Love. I tried to hold on to it but had to Let That Go, too, while having faith that another experience would occur... mebbe even better. It still left a lasting gift of raised consciousness & awareness & a true understanding of how all things were--way underneath--all one & rooted in love. I've not thot of that experience as being prescient of the 4-5th dimensions till you mentioned it, Miss Sally... I just thot of it as truely normal for beings & a blissful gift.

You are so right Clymela, Pluto isn't very nice if you are a person, cause or country who doesn't want to face itself, only he wouldn't hide because of that. If he couldn't rip off the masks of inauthenticity facing you he would hide and pull the plug of denials from the bottom. That's all very poetic of course, but there is something explosive coming, you can feel it.

On August 28th Pluto becomes stationary direct at 24'05" and Mars enters a square to it that very same day from Virgo. You can feel the energy building. Pluto will also inconjunct the US Mercury, more news seeping out? Perhaps! I would rather have shocking news than more deaths.

Raven, seems that we are thinking along the same lines.

* Chávez says China deal 'great wall' against US

· Venezuela to supply a million barrels of oil a day
· Beijing scrambling to feed energy-hungry economy

Jonathan Watts in Beijing
Saturday August 26, 2006
The Guardian

China & Venezuela, two of the biggest nations on Wash's worry list, drew closer together yesterday with the signing of trade agreements that the Venezuelan president called a "Great Wall" against American hegemonism. A million-bbl/day oil deal & a promise by China to back Venezuela's bid to join the UN security council were the main fruits of a week of mtgs in Beijing, ending with talks between Hugo Chávez & the Chinese PM, Wen Jiabao, yesterday. ... http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1858764,00.html

Patricia,
Regarding your family...many, many hugs and prayers. There are many on this board who understand and support you. This is not easy.
Especially when one cares so much.

* Labour members quit over party's Lebanon policy

Almost 40 Labour Party members in the constituency of Margaret Beckett, the Foreign Secretary, have defected to the Liberal Democrats because she "sided with gbush" over the Middle East crisis. The 37 defectors, made up of party members, ex-councillors & a ward chairman, are the highest-profile losses suffered by the party since the beginning of the Lebanon war. ... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2328694,00.html

Steve Judd...

26 August - Sometimes I feel like the noble savage in Brave New World, as though Dr Strangelove is waiting for us in the Orwellian Ministry of Truth & Peace. I’m coming to an ever stronger realisation that I just don’t believe that the world is as it is presented to me. Either I’m sane & most of the rest of the world is mad, or I’m raving & the world is sane. But it’s typical Saturn/Neptune spin, the hype, the terror & the illusion of fear, & with Jupiter hamming it up big time the escalation is intensifying. I think that bubbles are about to burst, that hard reality is going to dawn for a number of people, & that revelations are in store. Every so often, there’s a nexus point, a point where a common occurrence can release a wave of accelerated consciousness planet wide. I think that the coming few days represent such a time, a prelude to 2010. Grab that wave & surf it!

25 August - Six planets in 1/10th of the sky at the moment… focus is the only way out of inertia. Why wade through treacle when you can rise above & skim? And if you believe the astronomers, & Pluto is not a planet after all, then stick your head in the sand right now. Mars is 3° away from exact square to Pluto, about another week. One way of seeing this is that Mars rules war & surgical strikes, whilst Pluto is associated with underhand or behind the scenes tactics, as well as atomic & nuclear potentials. And a square is the most confrontational of aspects. Another way of seeing this is the assertive & projective principles of Mars & the transformative & regenerative powers of Pluto can act in tandem to eliminate old patterns of left brain behaviour. So do the planet & your long term karma a favour for the next few days, & be nice to yourself & others.

24 August - I cracked yesterday, the doom & gloom of the world got to me a bit, I need to keep reminding myself why I volunteered to be on planet at this time. I just can’t be doing with all this stupid macho bxxxxxxt about who’s got the biggest God or the biggest weapons. Arrogant, penis centred dominance by people who profess to be our intermediaries with the divine. Anyway, I fumed for a bit, saw that it will get easier in a week or so, & turned to humour. Living as I do on the Somerset border, it amused me when I realised that science has caught up with reality. Apparently, Somerset cows moo in a West Country accent.

http://www.stevejudd.com/home.html

John W. Dean: 'Michelle Goldberg's study of the rise of Christian Nationalism, and its adherents' strategy to use the courts to further their agenda'
Posted on Friday, August 25 @ 09:50:22 EDT
This article has been read 2748 times. John W. Dean, FindLaw

If more Americans would read works like Michelle Goldberg's Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism, the longevity of our democracy, as we know it, would be more assured. I say this because the more people who understand the thinking and agenda of the growing forces of "Christian nationalism," the less likely it will be that these forces will succeed. Not many people want to go where Christian nationalists want to take the country.
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?sid=27458&mode=&order=0

A lot of interesting comments after thearticle...
QOP

Excellent site on Katrina

http://www.redwirefilms.com/

Lebanese return to deadly fields of cluster bombs
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/lebanese-return-to-deadly-fields-of-cluster-bombs/2006/08/26/1156012790693.html

Really, such filth. And Iraq is blanketed in depleted uranium... amazing.

Does anyone have any astrological thoughts about Hurricane Ernesto and what it may augur? George and Laura plan to go to New Orleans to 'commemorate' Karina on Monday. Everyone is talking about something big happening at the end of August. Unless something suddenly and unexpectedly happens maybe Hurrican Ernesto is the indicator.

Hello Lunaoscura, I'll be running a chart on Ernesto when he becomes a hurricane, in the meantime here is the projected path

http://www.sfwmd.gov/org/omd/ops/weather/plots/storm_05.gif

The NHC line has it smacking the same area as Katrina hit. NHC is National Hurricane Center.

If you're interested in the tracking of this puppy check this out..

http://www.weatherunderground.com/tropical/

Thank you, Morgana.

Thanks Morgana!

Yeah,Clymela, I think we are.....and I think its pretty much a common thread running through alot of people. Some are more eloquent than others as far as communicating the impressions, some are , lie me, mostly just geting the impressions and then drooling and dribble them out.
I also think its interesting that a the Centaurs bridged the traditional to the new, the plutonians are all about the death and rebirth, with the goddess named planets just beyond. It looks to me that this is all about goddess energy...eventually anyway
Blessings all.

This may have already been mentioned. I haven't read the entire thread yet, but it seems to me that by demoting Pluto as the astronomers are doing, it becomes an unconscious desire to suppress its energy. Nothing good comes from suppressing any planet's energy, especially Pluto. What will happen when Pluto's energy explodes into the universe again?

What an interesting thot, Teresa... the only ones I can see "edicting" supression of pluto energies are pink boyz with supremacist ideas about themselves & I have no doubt it'll work for them... the explosion that is. I'm keeping an eye on that group! ;O)

* Chad president orders Chevron out

N'DJAMENA, Chad (Reuters) -- Chad ordered US energy giant Chevron & Malaysia's Petronas on Sat to leave the country within 24 hrs for failing to honor tax obligations, in a move apparently motivated by a desire to earn more from its oil. ... http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/08/26/chad.oil.reut/

The start probably... that's what happens when lil narcissistic bossy greedy boyz illegally take over a "govt." We all need to walk or ride our bikes more anyway. Americans are obese... in their haids, too.

Did anybody notice that Robert Hand said that there are 12 planets in our solar system. Do you think it's possible that 3 more planets may be found? And, if so, what signs would they rule?

Pluto may be about to explode..........I'm watching "Uncovered The War on Iraq" on Free Speech TV. I wonder how many others out there are watching it, any one here see it? Basically it strings the dots together sequentially, that we who by dint of remembering isolated events, reading through the lies with "HEIGHTENED AWARENESS" and pooling information.
Experts, Scott Ritter, David Kay, Hans Blix, Ray MCGovern, Henry Waxman Richard Clark,( the pluto ruled scorpio) and a lot of other retired, CIA, & FBI personnel ( mostly ex Rpeublicans)refute, with facts, the propaganda, on reruns of the Neocons, big moments ( Powell at the UN, Bush's 16 words SOU speech COndi's "mushroomn cloud moment".
If only they could have done that on CNN/Fox, when it could have made a difference.
I also watched Christian Amenpour's In The Footsteps of Bin Laden. ( on CNN) ( someone on Smirking Chimp said her husband James Rubin is a neocon lite. Somehow I felt the show didn't ring true.. ( For one thing she didn't deal with Salem bin Lauden's death in an ultra light, in TX, or any link between the Bush's & bin Laden's, although she did interview a childhood friend of OBL"s.
Will the "official dwarfing" of Pluto supress this? or NOT?
QOP

Here's a link to Free Speech TV.

http://www.freespeech.org/fscm2/genx.php?name=home

And then there is this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x110092

Garry, any word on whether Cheney's up at that HAARP place in AK?

Nothing that I've heard Shy, but RC Cola is still best with a non-status-impaired Moon Pie.....

Well, just got up early to check hurricane status of Ernesto and up came my Netscape home page. What was the first story listed on Netscape? Just the story about why Bush cant talk (it's not drugs, it's not senility, it's because he's lying) that was posted as a diary on Daily Kos and posted here by an alert AWer: http://politics.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/08/26/why-bush-cant-talk-its-not-the-drugs-and-its-not-senility/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailykos.com%2Fstoryonly%2F2006%2F8%2F24%2F22043%2F1891&frame=true

[New Book] "The Case for Impeachment"
As mentioned on c span last night, Saturday 8/27/6
- sold 30,000 copies since pub. May, 2006

From author’s web site
http://www.thiscantbehappening.net/

See his book’s “Epilogue…” : [for ease of reading I added
the breaks and letters [a-g]

“Epilogue: The Case for Impeachment
The Bush administration, to a degree that is unprecedented
and frightening, is

[a] asserting a right to unfettered presidential power. As we
have seen,

[b] Bush is claiming the authority to decide upon setting the
country at war...

[c] He is claiming the right to take the basic constitutional
rights of citizenship away from an American on his own authority...

[d] He is claiming the right to ignore the laws passed by the
Congress, the right to decide on his own what those laws mean
and to act according to his own interpretation, and even the
right to ignore court orders.

[e] He is claiming that as commander in chief he has powers
that are outside the normal constraints of the Constitution: the
power to spy on Americans without a court order,

[f] the power to ignore international law and treaties approved
by Congress and signed by former presidents,

[g] the power to ignore requests from Congress for information
about government activities.”

Update on Ernesto

http://www.wunderground.com/tropical/at200605.disc.html

Abilene, either Libra/Taurus could use their own planet (both ruled by Venus) Gemini/Virgo (both ruled by Mercury) so there's two possibilities for rulership; and the third could be assigned as a co-ruler, while Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Capricorn-none of those signs have a co-ruler assigned to them. Leo and Cancer will not have a co-ruler because they are ruled by the luminaries and those are too important as indicators for the astro community to assign them a co-ruler.

Doonsbury - History calling

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/db/2006/db060827.gif

Woo-hoo, look what's happening in Chiapas!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14543502/

Whoa! Even more from Mexico:
http://www.narconews.com/Issue42/article2025.html

Garry, do you know anything about this narconews outfit?

Ernesto becomes hurricane

...Tourists urged to leave Fla. as state of emergency declared

"It's on a track toward the Florida peninsula early this week, and all of Florida is in the area that's being threatened, from the Keys all the way up to the panhandle," said Michael Brennan, a meteorologist at the center in Miami.

Tourists were ordered to evacuate the Florida Keys immediately because of the storm threat and Governor Jeb Bush issued a state of emergency Sunday because of the possibility that Hurricane Ernesto could threaten Florida.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/weather/hurricane/bal-ernesto082706,0,6371048.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

Pat C., I just looked and it's now downgraded to Tropical Storm. Since these things have a tendency to change very quickly, I'm not posting a link at the moment. We'll see.

condomrice-aroni sure dropped off the nooz screen did she not? At the moment, so much for the "Sec of State."

Hi Shy we can sure hope that Ernie stays a TS, but with all that hot tub water between the Florida Straits and the Gulf of Mexico, they could cause this buckeroo could become a behemoth. Would be good for it to stay over land and lose its punch. The Venus/Saturn conj in opp to Neptune has already been ugly in my neck of the world, a young man died just down the street, came tearing down a hill on a custom built bike, no brakes, and no spotters, well some poor bloke on his way to the Budhist retreat hit the young man. So the energies around here are all whacked out.

Ya'll all stay alert.

Shy, I can't personally vouch for the "truthiness" of that site but I enjoy the content.

And is it just me, or am I alone in assuming that Pluto welcomes his demotion from planethood, if only so he can continue in secrecy? :)

Thanks for responding, Garry. And I'm witcha re Pluto.

My pleasure Shy...now, for more "fun" reading, go to this site and read the August 27th posting for tidbits about Ernesto, GHWB, BC, Donald Trump(!) and NOLA reconstruction.....

http://www.jmccanneyscience.com/

Cap'n Sally, Morgana, others--if you have the time, please look at this chart and share with us what the implications are for election 2006:
http://starcats.com/polls_open06.html

We've been hanging by a thread so long (years 'n' years) . . . Do we dare hope now?

Dear Friends,
I for one became so hungup on the Pluto in my 12th house which conjuncted my Mercury and then contiues to proceed toward my Ascendant at 29 Sag and impinge on my Sun at 6+Cap while I suffered through all kinds of misery for the last two years only getting my cast off of my broken right arm as Saturn left Cancer to conjunct as my Pluto in Leo and oppose my Venus in Aquarius. Alas I so involved in Pluto that I ignored Saturn. Only as I got better and better did I remember there are others who are after you, not just the Lord of Darkness.
So it is not just Bush, it is all of THEM.
In my moments of playing on the computer I decided to test astrology and see if I could predict winners in eletions and made up my own rules and cast charts and I was very successful in Texas and areas where I knew something about politics. I had called so many elections and had a majic key until 2000 and I could not make a call using my method so I went looking for clues on the internet and met Nancy who had her methods and introduced me to others with other methods. among those I researched I came to this site which has been like a home to me especially since I came to China in the 2002 after I retired on 9/11/01. I vote whether I am in China or in America. But I have not tried to call another election since then.bjt

I apologize. I really spell a little better than I type.bjt

A little humor to start the day.
http://satiricalpolitical.com/?p=279
QOP

Hey PatQ ,

Did you protest in Kennebunkport in front of the * estate this weekend ? So colorful.

ps I loved the corporate press photos of the * clan in sweaters and wool vests and fishing with windbreakers in August. Was it really cold there or were these old photos?

This is completely off topic, nothing to do with Pluto...

I have been concerned, though, with any concensus of opinion on dealing with Caesarian births.

For a one person birth...as any of us, most likely...do you draw up a chart just the same as for any regular birth? And, if dealing with public figures, especially, how would one know whether the birth was a natural birth or a Caesarian birth? Is this ever noted on a birth certificate?

I ask specifically because I do a lot of dog astrology. This means drawing up multiple charts for puppies born in a litter. AND, for example, if half the litter is born naturally, but half has to be delivered by C-section...then that really throws a wrench into the works. As far as I am concerned, anyway. Obviously, the first 5 or so puppy charts are the "free will" sort...but say if in a litter of 8 pups...the last three are delivered by C-section...then you have three charts that are calculated within 3 minutes of each other.

With human twins delivered by C-section, I suppose this could also be some kind of factor.

Apologies for this off-topic query, but I figured there must be some opinions from this group regarding this issue.

Thanks for any thoughts.

OG

Shylurker, 2006 Election chart:

Shy, I know Claudia uses the Dixville Notch chart because those are the first votes cast (that is until there were places that started early voting weeks before the election. I almost always use when the polls open or close in Washington DC. although I usually don't use the election day chart to predict the outcome unless it's a national election with a President in the offing. I have found going state by state to be a more reliable predicter. That said, looking at this chart the thing that jumps out at me is the Moon trine the POF and the Moon in the 10th house, indicating "the people get what they want." The 29 degree Asc. is absolutely the end of the matter, or too late to read. The Sun, Venus and Mercury square Neptune from the 3rd to the 6th house gives confusing results, particularly since the Sun rules the 12th and 1st house. Perhaps with a meaning of "confusing results for the rest of the country," because if you take this as the "election chart" the Moon will move into a square aspect to Uranus as the election day wears on giving some unexpected and surprising results. Not necessarily in Dixville Notch, but in the rest of the country, the Mercury (retrograde) square Neptune (from 3rd to 6th) shows up more problems with voting machines, however the Saturn trine Pluto from the 12th to the 4th is telling a story of finally making the issue (voting machines) so great something must be done. It's a mixed bag, the confusion and potential fraud would be impacting both parties and the country, because it's a national election chart. Ultimately from this chart with the Sun in a trine to the US Sun and to GWB's Sun and the GOP Sun, no matter the outcome, we all get what we want, the Mercury retrograde in square to Neptune says we don't know what we want.

Betsy, on your "election results" take each state's chart and match it to each candidate, in most cases that will resonate to the outcome. When you get a mixed bag, progress the state and the candidate charts.

Old Granny, A chart is drawn at the moment of birth, we begin to live from that first breath, and would be the same in a natural birth or C-section or even pre-mature. It would only be on the pre-natal chart that a pre-mature birth would be different. (by pre-mature, I mean several weeks)

Here's a little something that has playing in my head for a while. I think something is trying to tell me something and I thought I would share it with all of my magickal friends out there. Those who know will know what I am saying.

"Circle around the fire
To raise the cone of power
To bring what we desire and so mote it be.
Weave the magick by the moonlight
We dance and sing our witches song"

Any of you out there wanna have a little fun?
Maybe we can change the course of this sinking ship we are on....

"Old Granny, A chart is drawn at the moment of birth, we begin to live from that first breath, and would be the same in a natural birth or C-section or even pre-mature. It would only be on the pre-natal chart that a pre-mature birth would be different. (by pre-mature, I mean several weeks)"

Well, Sally, I don't agree. But I guess maybe that's a path I'll have to go on by myself. Maybe that's a new field for me to take a look at. :-)

Thanks, and thanks for any further comment on this subject.

OG

How is Thursday look to you Sally?

Hey, JudiGem -

I have a feeling we may know one another; I knew Mark Harmon in high school as well. Wanna send me a note? I'm in Menlo Park, and San Bruno's just a short hop away!

Thanks

* US housing slump fuels crash fears

Foundering [USian] property market could spark global slowdown worse than dotcom collapse [gloom-doom doom-gloom doom-doom-doom-gloom]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,1859024,00.html

I suspected this....

No match up with Karr's DNA...

This dudette is wacko.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/US/JonBenet_Ramsey_Murder

Steve Judd...

28 August - I’ve been saying for months that the end of Aug & start of Sept would be the straw that broke the camel’s back – & I suspect that the news concerning the apparent cover up of the oil leaks in Alaska is only the start. $300/bbl anyone? But now – Saturn 1/2° away from opposing Neptune & closing, Mars 1-1/2° away from squaring Pluto & closing, full Moon shortly strongly hitting Uranus – this next ten days will set the scene for many mos, if not years, to come. By the first week of Sept the only major global arena still under threat will be the financial one, as Jupiter begins to really turn the screws thru to the start of Oct, & then it’s a completely different energy, one of new beginnings. But this week? Either stay out of it completely or else get stuck right in. This is not a time for half measures. Walk your talk or shut up shop. http://www.stevejudd.com/home.html

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_dave_lin_060828_reader_response_to_c.htm

Public Hungry For News On Impeachment

Re: Karr

I believe Sally called this one a few threads back. Yea, Sally!!!!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/28/AR2006082800502.html

Florida Judge Rules Jeb's Voter Registration Rules Unconstitutional

Old Granny, I always use the moment of the first breath or usually the time given on the birth certificate. I don't distinguish between natural or ceasarian births-it is the individual breathing on their own that makes the chart.
I have heard some discussion of the impact of ceasarian and induced labor. I imagine that if the child was born at a certain time to suit the mother's convenience or to make the mother available for some corporate requirement then that would somehow show up in the child's chart.
The dogs born in the same litter but at widely differing times due to the necessity of getting the troubled mother to the vet would just have different rising signs and so express the archtypes differently than the ones born earlier.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/story.aspx?guid=%7BE18E95AF-DBFF-4EE4-ACF7-530A3CD714D3%7D&print=true&dist=printTop

Recession will be nasty and deep, economist says
Housing is in free fall, pulling the economy down with it, Roubini argues

By Rex Nutting, MarketWatch
Last Update: 4:59 PM ET Aug 23, 2006

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- The United States is headed for a recession that will be "much nastier, deeper and more protracted" than the 2001 recession, says Nouriel Roubini, president of Roubini Global Economics.
Writing on his blog Wednesday, Roubini repeated his call that the U.S. would be in recession in 2007, arguing that the collapse of housing would bring down the rest of the economy. Read more.
Roubini wrote after the National Association of Realtors reported Wednesday that sales of existing homes fell 4.1% in July, while inventories soared to a 13-year high and prices flattened out on a year-over-year basis. See full story.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/story.aspx?guid=%7BE18E95AF-DBFF-4EE4-ACF7-530A3CD714D3%7D&print=true&dist=printTop

Published on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 by CommonDreams.org
The Gates and Buffet Foundation Shell Game
by Sheldon Drobny

My background is finance and accounting. As a socially conscious venture capitalist and philanthropist, I have a very good understanding of wealth management and philanthropy. I started my career in 1967 with the IRS as a specialist in taxation covering many areas of the tax law including the so-called legal loopholes to charitable giving. I have known for years that a smart wealthy person could keep control of all his assets without estate or income taxes through cleverly structured charitable foundations. These foundations are perfectly legal and allow the donors to keep absolute control of all their money and power and accumulate enormous appreciation free of taxation. In 1967, the loopholes were outrageous and the law has tightened some of these tactics for the rich. However, the Gates Buffet foundation grant is nothing more than a shell game in which control of assets for both Gates and Buffet remain the same.

The only difference is that the accumulation of wealth by these two will be much more massive because they will no longer have to pay any taxes.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0823-26.htm

Cap'n Sally, thanks so much for treating us to a pretty thorough explanation of that Dixville chart. I just keep hoping!

Thinking of voting Democrat in November ???

Firing Squad Looms for the Dem Party Oligarchy

By Matt Taibbi, RollingStone.com
Posted on August 23, 2006, Printed on August 28, 2006
http://www.alternet.org/story/40744/

Question: Are bloggers too powerful?

Answer: Do I think they're important? Yes. Do I think the [bloggers] and Al Sharpton alone are the future of the Democratic Party? No! Welcome in, contribute, but it's about winning in November and moving the country forward, not about a firing squad in a circle. -- Q&A with U.S. representative Rahm Emmanuel, Aug. 28 issue of New York magazine

I badly want to move on to another topic in this column space -- there is very little in the world that is less interesting than the Democratic Leadership Council and their ilk -- but this stuff is fast becoming just too unbelievable to ignore.

What exactly does self-appointed congressional mega-celebrity and Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee chair Rahm Emmanuel mean (says a friend of mine in congress of him: "He's an amoral, showboating cock") when he says, "Do I think [bloggers] and Al Sharpton are the future of the Democratic Party?"

http://www.alternet.org/story/40744/

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-2318643_1,00.html

From a British newspaper (not, of course, a US paper). Excerpt:

"We was going along the Euphrates river," says Joshua Key, detailing a recurring nightmare that features a scene he stumbled into shortly after the US invasion of Iraq in March 2003. "It's a road right in the city of Ramadi. We turned a sharp right and all I seen was decapitated bodies. The heads laying over here and the bodies over there and US troops in between them. I'm thinking, 'Oh my God, what in the hell happened here? What's caused this? Why in the hell did this happen?' We get out and somebody was screaming, 'We f***ing lost it here!' I'm thinking, 'Oh yes, somebody definitely lost it here.'" Key says he was ordered to look for evidence of a firefight, for something to explain what had happened to the beheaded Iraqis. "I look around just for a few seconds and I don't see anything."

Then he witnessed the sight that still triggers the nightmares. "I see two soldiers kicking the heads around like soccer balls. I just shut my mouth, walked back, got inside the tank, shut the door, and thought, 'I can't be no part of this. This is crazy. I came here to fight and be prepared for war, but this is outrageous.'"

He's convinced that there was no firefight.

"A lot of my friends stayed on the ground, looking to see if there was any shells. There was never no shells." He still cannot get the scene out of his mind: "You just see heads everywhere. You wake up, you'll just be sitting there, like you're in a foxhole. I can still see Iraq just as clearly as it was the day I was there. You'll just be on the side of a little river running through the city, trash piled up, filled with dead. I don't sleep that much, you might say." His wife, Brandi, nods in agreement, and says that he cries in his sleep.

More....

Letter to Al From:
Founder and CEO of the Democratic Leadership Council
Becky Burgwin

January 2, 2004

OpEdNews.Com

(Copy of letter sent to the chairman of the DLC asking why the Democrats still aren’t doing their homework and why they’re doing Herr Rove’s work for him by irreparably damaging their most promising candidate. Attached documents: 8 issues of Dean Daily Dose and an article by Becky Burgwin entitled, Dean is Thinking Outside the Box.)

Dear Mr. From,

I am writing to you as a result of this quote of yours from the Dec. 30th Washington Post article, Democrats Battle for Anti-Dean Mantle. You were quoted as saying, “The point we’ve made over and over again and continue to make, we cannot win this election just by depending on people who don’t like George Bush…We’ve got to be able to persuade people to support us. That’s still the challenge in front of Dean. He needs to lay out a thoughtful agenda to get people to support him. It’s not enough to just tap the activist anger against George Bush.”

http://www.opednews.com/burgwin0104_letter_to_al_from.htm

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1272052006

School knocked for mocking Yale grad Bush

Posters and a Web site mocking ... George W. Bush have put the spotlight on a small Ontario university that thought a bold and edgy recruiting campaign was just the ticket to attract potential students.

The Web site, www.yaleshmale.com, has a black and white picture of Bush, with the caption: "Graduating from an Ivy League university doesn't necessarily mean you're smart."

Yet another "interesting" site, this one posts terror drills and wargames times/dates.....

http://www.falseflagnews.com

Bush and Saddam Should Both Stand Trial, Says Nuremberg Prosecutor

Aaron Glantz OneWorld US

SAN FRANCISCO, Aug 25 (OneWorld) - A chief prosecutor of Nazi war crimes at Nuremberg has said George W. Bush should be tried for war crimes along with Saddam Hussein. Benjamin Ferencz, who secured convictions for 22 Nazi officers for their work in orchestrating the death squads that killed more than 1 million people, told OneWorld both Bush and Saddam should be tried for starting "aggressive" wars--Saddam for his 1990 attack on Kuwait and Bush for his 2003 invasion of Iraq.

"Nuremberg declared that aggressive war is the supreme international crime," the 87-year-old Ferencz told OneWorld from his home in New York. He said the United Nations charter, which was written after the carnage of World War II, contains a provision that no nation can use armed force without the permission of the UN Security Council.

Ferencz said that after Nuremberg the international community realized that every war results in violations by both sides, meaning the primary objective should be preventing any war from occurring in the first place.

http://us.oneworld.net/article/view/138319/1/?PrintableVersion=enabled

This slimey SOB is another Hillary, not an once
of shame...

McCain would consider Bob Jones invite By JIM DAVENPORT, Associated Press Writer
Mon Aug 28, 2:56 PM ET

Republican Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record) says he would consider speaking at Bob Jones University, a school he criticized during the 2000 presidential campaign for its ban on interracial dating and anti-Catholic views.

"I can't remember when I've turned down a speaking invitation. I think I'd have to look at it," McCain told The State newspaper in South Carolina.

The potential 2008 presidential candidate and Arizona senator said he would have to look at Bob Jones University's latest policy statements. "I understand they have made considerable progress," he said.

In 2000, McCain assailed the Christian fundamentalist school for its policies and rival George W. Bush for speaking there. During a debate, McCain said that if he were invited, he would have gone to the school and said, "Look, what your doing in this ban on interracial dating is stupid, it's idiotic, and it is incredibly cruel to many people."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060828/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_bob_jones&printer=1

that should be "not an ounce of shame"

Black Holes: The Deadliest Force in the Universe
When Sci-Fi Becomes Reality, and Destruction Is Total
Aug. 28, 2006 — - Imagine a black hole swallowing Earth, ending life in an instant. It's not only the stuff of pulp sci-fi novels but, scientists say, a looming possibility.

"It would be a bad day for the solar system if we got visited by a black hole," says Neil deGrasse Tyson, director of New York's Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History.

In our vast galaxy there are billions upon billions of stars, each of which is at a different point in its life cycle. Citing the law of averages, some scientists believe at least one star dies every day.

And in death, stars occasionally give birth to black holes; when a massive celestial body's core collapses, it creates an immense gravitational pull not unlike an invisible cosmic vacuum cleaner. As it moves, it sucks in all matter in its way -- not even light can escape.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/print?id=2365372

Comment
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Labour's sinking ship the mutinous mood grows
The party must decide whether it is better to ride out another stormy year or risk forcing Tony Blair to walk the plank

Polly Toynbee
Tuesday August 29, 2006

Guardian

Pity Labour's wretched foot soldiers, looking ahead gloomily to the party conference. They are doggedly loyal, the few activists left after last May's massacre of local councillors, facing next May's near-certain slaughter in more councils and heavy losses in the Welsh assembly and Scottish parliament. With Labour now between seven and nine points behind in the polls, who do they blame for the state of their party?
Is it the boat-rockers pressing too impatiently for the quick departure of a leader whose third victory was a mere 15 months ago? Or is the ship sinking through refusal to drop the pilot still steering them on to the rocks, shipping more water every day he stays?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,329563370-103677,00.html

Tony Blair
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The point of no return

Leader
Tuesday August 29, 2006

Guardian

Tony Blair must have prayed that the summer break might somehow mark the end of some of his immediate political difficulties and provide a breathing space that would enable him to regain the domestic initiative in some way. If so, it has turned out to be the victory of hope over experience and of self-belief over common sense. The prime minister has been back from his vacation for four days now, and it is already clear that nothing substantial in British politics has changed at all since the pre-holiday season. Mr Blair and his entourage may talk as usual of renewed energy and fresh initiatives; but few elsewhere are deceived. Outside the Downing Street bunker the only question that anyone asks about the Blair premiership is how long it will now last - not whether it can be revived. Peering into the mists of a stretching political autumn, a single dominant issue looms over the domestic agenda: when will he go?
In some ways, of course, this is all terribly unfair. It is less than 18 months since Mr Blair led Labour to victory once more, having pledged to serve a third term while not seeking a fourth. Very little has happened in those 18 months to require the prime minister to pass on that mandate to anyone else - although the simmering cash for peerages scandal might yet do so. Yet the underlying truth, visible even in the 2005 election, is that Britain long ago fell out of love with Mr Blair. The press is aggressively bored with him and is only interested in the succession. Labour support ebbs towards the Conservatives in the polls, threatening dire May elections and alarming what remains of the party faithful. The August scare raised questions equally about Islamist terrorism and British foreign policy. Ask yourself why it is uniquely necessary for Mr Blair to stay in office and the answer to that question is no longer obvious.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,329563370-103677,00.html

Noam Chomsky: You Ask The Questions

Do you believe Israel is doing the West's dirty work? And what do you think of Elvis's music?

Published: 28 August 2006

How did you feel about the lack of a swift UN intervention in the recent Lebanon crisis? ROBIN, INVERNESS

The first requirement was an immediate cease-fire. That was blocked by Washington, presumably to allow maximal destruction by the invasion - the US-Israeli invasion, according to the (accurate) perception of 90 per cent of Lebanese. That call should have been accompanied by a demand for withdrawal of the invading army and reparations, unthinkable given the distribution of power. The resolution that was passed is deeply flawed, a separate matter.

Can Israelis and Palestinians ever live peacefully together in one state? MATTHEW PETERS, PHILADELPHIA

http://news.independent.co.uk/people/profiles/article1222253.ece

Yea, verily... but somehow bushaholic is never dragged out of the People's WH & blair is never dragged out of Downing St. Yammer, yammer, yammer... going on how many years now?

I think instead of finding a horse's head in each their beds, monstrous b&b should find an Iraqi head in their beds... mebbe several each. Oh... & mebbe a rubberized version of each of their own haids as an extra special hint of the guillotine.

Baraka, sent you an email...funny...I guess we probably went to high school together...

I don't know about everyone else, but I have a really disgusted feeling coming on. I can't stand to read any of the news...it is just the same old same old. But that is going to change, I have no doubt.

As for moment of birth...well...the first breath is what I am going to stay with...and I am a Caesarian section....but a first breath is a first breath...classic, Scorpio rising, the presence of knives and surgeons at birth.....Sun/Saturn and Uranus even in the 8th house of surgery! I was a breach birth, or unbirth....I've had extensive therapy (EXTASY induced) about my birth, and my conclusion was this...compared to normally born people, I am a person who always needs help from others to do anything! Well...that was drug induced thinking! But it sure was painful emotionally....too lame to even get born....

PatC asked about the 31st and the exact opposition of Saturn and Neptune. This is the first opposition since the Saturn/Neptune conjunction of November 1987. The following is an interesting news analysis of that month.

http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/19891113.pdf

But what will the opposition mean? My assessment would be a slow unfolding of events, neither Saturn or Neptune are ever in a hurry to tell us what's up their sleeve. Perhaps Lynda would expand for us but The Sabian symbol for 18 Leo is: "in inquiring into the hidden process of nature, the human mind experiences the thrill of discovery." at 18 degrees Aquarius (Neptune) "the difficulty for the modern individual to keep secret his private past or his deeper motives." Hmmm, now that sounds like we could hear information from someone's "loose lips" and it will be bigger than who outed Valerie Plame.

The Sun and Mercury meet in Virgo at 7 degrees, very close to a square to the US Uranus. I have noticed over the last six years that aspects from transiting or progressed Mercury to the US Uranus seems to bring hidden information to light. Remember we are under the Lunar eclipse rays of Sept. 7th, also the month's Full Moon with transiting Uranus involved. I am going to go out on a limb here and say "shocking events" unfolding from this this first pass of two of the "we have all year" planets.

Who is in a hurry however is Mars and Mars on the 30/31 is conjunct transiting South Node and square Pluto. Iraq and Afghanistan come to mind, but that's not hard they've never been stable. Israel is still smarting from the Hezbollah slap down, and the Iran hubris is beginning to sound like GWB's "bring em on."

It's interesting to note that the would be (NOT) killer of Jon Benet Ramsey has this Saturn and Neptune in an exact square to his Jupiter, so this has been a good thing/bad thing for him. His release won't turn out to be a lucky break for him, but he did not kill her, he's just sick.

Sally

I know people have been asking you about this this periodically for some time now, but in light of your above comment regarding how someone with loose lips might soon reveal important info "bigger than who outed Valerie Plame" dare we hope that someone with deep credible insider knowledge might (finally) disclose the truth about either the govt.'s active complicity re 9/11 (or at the very least) its conscious decision to stand down and let it occur, so that PNAC could have its much talked about "New Pearl Harbor"?

That would indeed be one "October Surprise" (or Sept surprise?) resulting in far more excitement than Roverer and the boyz could have ever expected, I'm sure! Boy howdy, how we'd all love to see those headlines, assuming of course that the revelation is so stunningly blatant that even the whorish (sorry) MSM had no choice but to cover the story in all its shocking details.

Sally, Thank you for your note on election predictions.
I think the Dixville is a local event and shows that some of the many offices and candidates will be happy and some will be not be happy. I think the people of Dixville who get up in the middle of night and have a party and if everyone shows up they count the votes early and go on the news will have a great time as always. It may have value for the whole state but a chart for the capital of the state might be a better choice for the state wide offices. Congressional
offices can be determined from a state chart in those states with only one Congress person and one Senator on the ballot. Finding the main location for some gerrymandered districts might be a problem for this kind of chart.
(A chart for the person or for the state or a party or a horary question chart might be better for a gerrymandered district in a large state.)
Everyone please feel free to comment on anything I suggest as I am only learning and happy to learn more.
Okay, I really want to know who wins Tom Delay's seat and what happens to Liberman.
Do we have Lamont's chart?
Personally, I think that Iran will tell all about the Hostages for Arms with documents.
I think that a win by Daniel Ortega and the Sandistas will also let a few cats out of the bag by someone. Then there is Bush one and Noreiga.
Can anyone predict what is happening in Mexico?
China is being very nice to a lot of small countries every where in the world and it matters.

Psssst. You don't want to miss this great list:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x231639

Trust me.

Tragic anniversary:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/8/27/19169/3878

Check out comments made by the red bell pepper:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2002287

Those memories must not fade Shy.

Thank you Sally.

August 29, 2006
Guest Columnist

Defunders of Liberty

By THOMAS FRANK

Before he became K Street’s most enterprising racketeer, Jack Abramoff was best known as a sort of young Robespierre of the Reagan Revolution. In 1983, as chairman of the College Republicans, he declared that he and his minions did not “seek peaceful coexistence with the left. Our job is to remove them from power permanently.”

By all accounts, Abramoff carried out this mission with a Ramboesque single-mindedness. A ferocious latter-day red-baiter, he seems to have encountered Communists everywhere he went in early-80’s America, fighting them (literally, with his fists) on campus, detecting their influence in the nuclear freeze movement, scheming to checkmate students worried about El Salvador by calling attention to the crimes of “their beloved Soviet Union.” As a reward he got his handsome mug on the cover of the John Birch Society’s Review of the News.

Abramoff’s remark about liquidating the left was not just the intemperate raving of a hot-blooded youth. It also expressed the essence of the emerging conservative project: You don’t just argue with liberals, you damage them. You use the power of the state to afflict their social movements, to wreck their proudest government agencies, and to divert their funding streams. “Defund the left” was a rallying cry all across the New Right in those heady days; Richard Viguerie even devoted a special issue of Conservative Digest to the subject in 1983.

http://select.nytimes.com/2006/08/29/opinion/29frank.html?pagewanted=print

Today’s papers – from Slate:

http://www.slate.com/id/2148538

Grizzly, I have no idea what the information "leaked" might be and I would be shocked if it were on the 30th because Saturn/Neptune will be unwinding their punch for an entire year. However, I have had a hunch that there is information regarding the government's involvement (some in the government) in 9/11 and it's about to spill out. Maybe someone who cannot sleep at night will tell all, we can hope. I would doubt if there are any papers that tells the whole tale, but then again I didn't think Nixon would keep the incriminating "tapes." So we will see.

Betsy, I don't know who will win DeLay's seat, I don't have the birthdates of the other candidates, I don't even have their names so there would be nothing to follow or look at without those. Liberman, I believe will lose. In a couple of weeks he will have Saturn square his Saturn and then his Mars all before the election. He is going to say something or do something that puts the nail down. Lamont Birthday is Jan. 3, 1954, in New York, (no time) he doesn't have strong aspects but the aspects he does have on election day are good ones. I don't have the chart on the Republican running, but it would be something if Liberman split the ticket so badly that the guy won. I think Liberman will not finish the race, I think he will withdraw before the election.

Mondo Weiss

Chris Matthews Should Talk About the Israel Lobby Because It's All He Thinks About

I have a fantasy about Chris Matthews. It's the 1980s and the height of the violent "Troubles" in Northern Ireland, and Hardball is on. Matthews goes to political turf he knows well, Irish Boston, and gathers a group of American Catholic activists on air. Then he screws these guys to the wall. He asks them what being Irish-Catholic means to them, he grills them about whether they are sending money to the Sinn Fein or the Provisional IRA. He shows us from the inside out why an American interest group feels as passionately as it does, and how it is heating up a hot zone overseas.

But here's the rest of my fantasy: Matthews does the same thing now, for Jews and Israel. Only this time he isn't gathering Catholic corner boys like himself, he is gathering neocons at think tanks and publications and White House offices.

Chris Matthews should do this because as he now demonstrates nearly every night, he believes (as I do) that devotion to Israel on the part of socially- and politically-empowered hawkish Jews helped to distort our leaders' definitions of American interests. He should stop hinting, and put his money down on the counter. Matthews is probably the smartest guy about politics—if not ideas—on air, and if he is holding himself back, it just demonstrates the influence of the Israel lobby. People are afraid to take it on.

http://mondoweiss.observer.com/2006/08/chris-matthews-should-talk-about-the-israel-lobby-because-it.html

Here's a link to the whole article for Tom Frank's article on Defunders of Liberty.

http://donkeyod.blogspot.com/2006/08/defunders-of-liberty-by-thomas-frank.html

The irony about Abramoff is that his actions have actually contributed to a full-blown revival of the very Progressive/Liberal Left that he had hoped to destroy. Meanwhile, he has seriously damaged his own Republican Party, in what may yet prove to be one of many mortal wounds -- something he was hoping to inflict upon the Democrats.

What's that old saying... about rolling stones sometimes coming back to roll over the person who first pushed them?

The sad, destructive legacy of Republican conservative/corporatist greed and shortsightedness:

1,500 days until the Peak

Let the countdown begin. Although its been a countdown since Hubbert discovered the concept of peak oil..

http://www.energybulletin.net/19777.html

Oil powers 80-95% of all transport, 50-75% of all oil is used for transportation, 99% of all lubrication is done with oil products, 95% of all goods in the shops get there using oil, 99% of our food involves oil or gas for fertilisers, agrochemicals, tilling, cultivation and transport. Oil is the most important source of primary energy on the planet accounting for 36.4% of all energy. What do current high oil prices tell us? The market is saying ‘send more oil!’. Economics need a balance of supply and demand, they assume that high prices bring new demand, yet high prices have failed to bring any new supply to meet this demand. In the Third World, high oil prices are already having a huge impact.

Demand is now starting to come down to reach supply. So why are supplies peaking? We are not finding enough new oil. We are not developing new fields fast enough, our old fields are getting very tired. In 2005 we found 5 bn barrels, and we used 30 bn, a ratio of 6:1.

ccording to his year’s BP statistics, OECD production peaked in 1997,non-OPEC production peaked in 2002, North America and Mexico peaked in 2000, and are in a 19.2% decline. While economists live in a fantasy world, we have to look at realities here.

So what can we do? We need a mixture of biofuels, efficiency, heavy oil and tar sands and a nuclear renewal. Supply will be tight and the price will remain high. Peak will occur between 2010 and 2011, at 92-94 million barrels a day. We are still in denial of this, but the fact is that we only have 1,500 days until the peak. The new EIA report says the same thing, although couched in caveats and provisos.

RED ALERT MUST READ!!!! Mark October's first week on your calendars...

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=5059

Bush White House to be subpoenaed by wiretap lawyers

RAW STORY
Published: Tuesday August 29, 2006

Two attorneys representing claimants in a lawsuit over wiretapping by the National Security Agency will subpoena the White House today, RAW STORY has learned.

Bruce Afran and Carl Mayer, who represent hundreds of plaintiffs in lawsuits against Verizon, AT&T, and the US Government, will announnce today that they are serving both the Bush administration and Verizon with subpoenas.

The announcement is due to arrive at 4:30 PM, outside of Verizon headquarters in New York, RAW STORY has confirmed.

The subpoenas come on the heels of two federal court decisions that were seen as blows to the Bush Administration warrantless spying program.

Earlier this month, federal judge Anna Diggs Taylor ruled the entire program unconstitutional and illegal; another federal judge in San Francisco rejected the Bush Administration's attempt to dismiss these lawsuits by claiming they breach national security.

Mayer explained that the subpoena seeks to learn "whether the Bush administration has unlawfully targeted journalists, peace activists, libertarians, members of congress or generated an 'enemies list.'"

Afran told RAW STORY he expected the White House to again claim that the state secrets doctrine forbade it from answering the subpoena, but called the claim "Absolute nonsense."

"That's an invitation for presidents to write their own rules and we've had judges multiple times say that state secrets is not a defense," he explained, adding, "We hope the White House will realize the need to cooperate."

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/BREAKING__Bush_White_House_subpoenaed_0829.html

I think someone ..like Richard Mellon Scaife, or Moon!
paid Karr to step forward, as a news blocker, red
herring.........
QOP

http://www.newyorkslime.com/bush-watch.html

Check it out.

.....................

Blogosphere Unites in Pursuit of Masked Senator

By Paul Kiel - August 28, 2006, 1:04 PM

Who's trying to stop the government from telling its citizens where their tax dollars are being spent? Help find out.

Just before the August recess, the Senate was set to vote on a bill co-sponsored by Sens. Barack Obama (D-IL) and Tom Coburn (R-OK) that would create a public, searchable database of all federal grants and contracts. Envisioned as a Google-like website, it would provide free, immediate access the information, which can be alarmingly difficult to obtain.

The Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee unanimously passed the measure July 27th, and S.2590 seemed to be speeding on its way to full Senate passage when, in the dark of night, an unknown Senator placed a "secret hold" on the bill. According to Senate rules, the bill will never come to a vote as long as the hold continues.

So who's the culprit?

Since he/she is unlikely to fess up, bloggers from the left and right have united in the effort of eliminating suspects one by one. The only way to do this is to call your Senator's offices up and get an answer. Over at Porkbuster.org, they're keeping a tally; 27 Senators have responded to readers and bloggers and said they weren't responsible for the hold. GOP Progress (via Wonkette) got that total up to 33.

We think TPM readers should get in on the act. If your Senator has yet to respond (see the Porkbusters tally), give his or her staff a call and politely ask if the Senator was the one who placed the secret hold. And let us know how it went (email us at comments (at) tpmmuckraker dot com).

Updates below the fold...

con't http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/001428.php

Not A Clue

To get a better idea of what ails the world, let's use our imagination to transport ourselves into outer space. From there, we can look down on Earth not as an American or as a European, but as a disinterested alien.

We see a collection of sovereign nations — some large, some small, some powerful and some weak. We also see that some of the powerful nations do not respect the sovereignty of some of the others.

For example, by what right do the United States and the Europeans tell Iran it cannot enrich uranium? Other nations enrich uranium. Iran is a signatory of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, and it grants the right to enrich uranium. Where does the United States get off telling the Iranians they can't do it?

http://reese.king-online.com/Reese_20060828/index.php

Sally and all--wonderful stuff! Can't tell you how much I appreciate this thought-provoking info.

Please forgive personal msg here--my computer modum has given out and my email server is wonky--don't know why.

Lawrie, Swampmst, sent me a email and I can't reply. Am working on replacement/fixed equipment but nothing yet.

Anyhoo, my snailmail address is 743 Myrtle St. NE Atlanta GA 30308. Lawrie, please send your address to me and I would very much like to reply to your email.

Thanks, Sally. Can't wait to get on-line regularly again. Love Astroworld.

Sally, Betsy,

Nick Lampson is the Democrat running in Delays district. Born Feb. 14, 1945. No time. I don't know the name of the woman that is a write in for the rethugs. The mayor of Sugar Land backed out last week due to ties to Delay.

The governers race here is between.

Rick Perry - Watch this one. He's flying under the radar and could possibly run for rez in '08. Evilgelican to the bone. Ties to all of the players in DC, ie. the lunatics.

Carol Strayhorn - Scott Mac's son....nuff said...Running as an independent.

Kinky Friedman - Independent. A true Texas nut. I'm not sure about him. I like a lot of what he says, but with no political background it could hurt him.

Chris Bell - Democrat. Kinky is steraling votes from him. I lived in Bells district for years and he was very good to everyone.

I would be curious to what each of their charts have to say. When I can get there dates and times I'll run the charts. Or is anyone up to seeing what Tx will be getting this November?

What a post number--26664!
Texas governor's race is the perfect place to find the answers. It will be fun. Let's see what the stars tell us.
I will vote for Bell by absentee. Texas has had problems with absentee votes being all Republican in the past like both Ann Richard's races.

* GOP's con & liberal wings at war heading into ‘06 campaign

Bush has been trying to maintain a united Republican Party amid flagging conservative support and a split with the GOP’s liberal wing.

The two wings are so far apart that party strategists no longer envision a united front for the Nov congressional elections. The strategists said many of the liberals[?!?!?], already alienated from the WH, have been campaigning as opps of [rez] in an effort to win re-["election"] as part of an expected Democratic Party sweep of Congress. "I think we've lost our way," said Sen Chuck Hagel, a NB [voting machine corpo owner] [Republic] & possible prez contender in 2008. "And I think the [Republics] are going to be in some jeopardy for that and will be held accountable." ... http://www.insightmag.com/Media/MediaManager/Hagel.htm

Corporate Globalization and Middle East Terrorism

By Charles Sullivan

It is ironic that the people who think they are the freest are the
most controlled people on earth. It is equally odd that those who
think they are part of the greatest democracy the world has ever
known do not participate in a democracy at all; nor do they recognize
one when they see it. These facts attest to how thoroughly the
American people have been propagandized by the corporate media.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14749.htm

===
Today's 'Islamic fascists' were yesterday's friends

By Brendan O'Neill

From the Muslim Brotherhood to Hamas: how the West and its allies
created a layer of anti-secular radical Islamism.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14741.htm

===
The Big Lie About 'Islamic Fascism'

By Eric Margolis

The term "Islamofascist" is utterly without meaning, but packed with
emotional explosives. It is a propaganda creation worthy Dr.
Goebbles, and the latest expression of the big lie technique being
used by neocons in Washington's propaganda war against its enemies in
the Muslim World.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14743.htm

Corporate Globalization and Middle East Terrorism

By Charles Sullivan

It is ironic that the people who think they are the freest are the
most controlled people on earth. It is equally odd that those who
think they are part of the greatest democracy the world has ever
known do not participate in a democracy at all; nor do they recognize
one when they see it. These facts attest to how thoroughly the
American people have been propagandized by the corporate media.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14749.htm

===
Today's 'Islamic fascists' were yesterday's friends

By Brendan O'Neill

From the Muslim Brotherhood to Hamas: how the West and its allies
created a layer of anti-secular radical Islamism.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14741.htm

===
The Big Lie About 'Islamic Fascism'

By Eric Margolis

The term "Islamofascist" is utterly without meaning, but packed with
emotional explosives. It is a propaganda creation worthy Dr.
Goebbles, and the latest expression of the big lie technique being
used by neocons in Washington's propaganda war against its enemies in
the Muslim World.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14743.htm

It really should be easier to get rid of an unwanted prime minister

Our distorting electoral system has long hidden Tony Blair's declining popularity. He is a great advertisement for reform

Geoffrey Wheatcroft
Wednesday August 30, 2006

Guardian

When the chapter of Our Island Story dealing with the past decade comes to be written, there will be two great questions for a future Maitland or Macaulay to address: How did Sven get away with it, and how did Tony? Other hands than mine will have to explain how a lugubrious if libidinous Swede, with no very convincing record or obvious ability, stuffed tens of millions into his pocket while turning a group of, at worst second-rate, players into a third-rate team.
Scarcely less puzzling is Tony Blair's political career (and not only because much the same applies about second-raters in a third-rate cabinet). His days in office are now palpably coming to an end, which is not to say that he will go quietly or quickly. Blair is discredited and beleaguered, trusted or approved by less than a quarter of the electorate, and his closest colleagues, let alone backbench MPs, are desperate for a change. He is about to inflict a new array of speeches and initiatives on us, but whatever he now does has about it an air of the shadowy figure in the bunker moving imaginary armies on a map.

Much more interesting than "When will Blair go?" is "How has he survived so long?" And the answer is that Blair has not only carried out a kind of imposture, he has hugely benefited from grave systemic faults and deformations in our political culture, and in the process crushed both cabinet and parliament.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,329564056-103677,00.html

Texas was "born" on 12-29-1845.

* Inouye Pulls Lieberman Endorsement

When Joe Lieberman gave the middle finger to Dem voters in CT after they selected Ned Lamont as their Senate nominee & promptly jumped into an ill-advised independent bid for the Senate, my guess was that the whole thing would run its course & begin to unravel by the end of Sept.

It looks like it's starting a month early.

Sen Daniel Inouye (D-HI), a longtime Lieberman supporter, has announced that he is pulling his endorsement of Lieberman's independent candidacy. The Honolulu Advertiser reports that Inouye was under fire by HI Dems for his steadfast support of Lieberman & that there is precedent in HI for Dems facing disciplinary action within the party for backing a 3rd-party candidate over the voters' choice. The newspaper also reports that Inouye became disenchanted with Lieberman after he made a speech critical of the party. "I told some of my friends after he gave his speech saying the party isn't the party he knew that he doesn't get my support," Inouye said in an interview. ... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-geiger/inouye-pulls-lieberman-en_b_28246.html

Worried MPs plot to force Blair exit date
Backbenchers in marginals swelling numbers wanting clear departure plan

Patrick Wintour, political editor
Wednesday August 30, 2006

Guardian

Fears of Labour election losses in marginal seats, especially in the south-east of England, are prompting renewed discussion among the party's MPs about whether they should collectively and publicly demand that Tony Blair use his party conference speech to set out a clear timetable for when he will stand down.
Blairites argue that a letter calling for a timetable from the prime minister would be misjudged, since it would be seen as divisive within the party and would only have a political impact if a large number of MPs signed up to it. But supporters of such a move argue that they could assemble big numbers going well beyond the ranks of serial rebel MPs. They could include previously loyal MPs such as Martin Linton, Mike Gapes, Kitty Ussher and Jim Dowd, who have recently criticised the prime minister, especially over the impact of his foreign policy.

An alternative option of tabling an emergency motion at the party conference in September is likely to be rejected since it would require the support of the unions to be carried. The motion would have called for Labour's national executive to take over preparations of a timetable for a leadership election.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,329564180-121404,00.html

Two scholars say pro-Israel lobby has warped U.S. policy

By Frank James

John Mearsheimer, a University of Chicago political science
professor, and Stephen Walt, a professor of international relations
at Harvard University's Kennedy School, said the U.S. government's
unstinting support for Israel's recent war in Lebanon once again
placed the agenda of what they call the Israel lobby ahead of U.S.
strategic interests.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14745.htm

===
Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy

C-Span Video

Two international affairs experts discussed pro-Israel lobbying and
its influence on U.S. attitudes toward the conflict between Israel
and Hezbollah in Lebanon. Topics included Israel and international
law, U.S. neutrality, defining terrorism, and $3 billion per year
U.S. aid to Israel.

Click here to view.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14752.htm

===
AIPAC, the Religious Right and American foreign policy

By Rodrigue Tremblay

Nobody can understand what's going on politically in the United
States without being aware that a political coalition of major
pro-Likud groups, pro-Israel neoconservative intellectuals and
Christian Zionists is exerting a tremendously powerful influence on
the American government and its policies.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14746.htm

Bush Seeks Retroactive Laws to Protect Himself from War Crimes
Prosecution

By Paul Craig Roberts

Today the US and its last remaining non-coerced ally, Israel, are
almost universally regarded as the bad guys over whom John Wayne
would triumph. Today the US and Israel are seen throughout the world
as war criminal states.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14744.htm

Reclaiming The Issues: Islamic Or Republican Fascism?

By Thom Hartmann

In the years since George W. Bush first used 9/11 as his own
"Reichstag fire" to gut the Constitution and enhance the power and
wealth of his corporate cronies, many across the political spectrum
have accused him and his Republican support group of being fascists.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14747.htm

Knock yourselves out!!
http://www.toddalbert.com/files/images/bushsmack.swf

Unsafe Coast Guard boats – desperate whistleblower

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd3VV8Za04g

http://salon.com/news/feature/2006/08/30/lebanese_psychics/

Lebanon's psychic hot line

Fortunetellers with uncanny track records predict which political figures will live and which will die in a country obsessed with soothsaying.

If I did every race for every candidate in every state, including primaries, I would be working at it day and night, so unless it's a really hot primary (by poll numbers, or an important one) I don't do that kind of mind abuse if I can help it. After the primaries are over, I will look at important (one's that have a chance of winning) one's. Right now, on my email, I have over 600 candidates and several states, sorry, I can't do them and I don't want to play favorites. It would be great for you to get the dates and if you need help with the state data let me know and I will supply you with that.

Rick Perry is pretty well tied to Texas and it will be hard to unseat him.But Texas has some problems coming up pretty quick and Texans might blame Perry for them, I just don't see them as bad enough to remove him, still if it comes out that he really is gay (I mean proof) Still and all Texas resonates with him. (yuck)

It's the hair, Cap'n Sally. The hair. Conservative idiots love them hair-dos. I mean, look at Trent Lott and Bob Ney, for crying out loud. Yip. It's the hair.

Looks like Uncle Sam is targetting the petroleum poms (British Petroleum)

BP under fire again as oil traders face scrutiny
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9078-2334521,00.html

Dr Drollas said: “They are going to be the whipping boys for a while, but the issues are wider. Politicians can whip up support by attacking Big Oil but it is not right that they are deflecting attention from their own shortcomings in dampening demand through taxation and allowing more drilling.”

Sally, since you appear to be a fund of useful info and data.
Do you have any data on BP?

Great postings, wv & everybody... have passed it all on.

I'll betcha a stick of Juicy Fruit Gum, Stan, that this is just a struggle by certain members of the worldwide oligarchy to gobble up certain others. The US gubmint is being used to advance certain interests. We need to revise the old Monopoly game to reflect these new times.

TaHA! While "living" in Oklahoma, I knew a fundie by its dyed pompadour or teased hair-do. That old joke is truethie: "You know how you can tell a fundamentalist? Their hair is always caught in the ceiling fan."

Shylurker - Juicy fruit gum? How about a wee dram:-)

Could be you're right however my first reaction to the article was how Uncle Sam had chosen a (British) "Big Oil" company for their attack to give the impression of going after "Big Oil"

My reason for looking for research data was using it as a feel for where "Big Oil" is going to be say 10 years down the road.
For instance my most visited biz site is Merryman's Market Week
http://www.stariq.com/MarketWeek.HTM

Some time back he, and I do believe my memory is correct (haven't had a wee dram in the last 23 hours) he agrees that oil prices will blow out for a few years and then, to use a Scottishism, come a real "gutser".
In other words the gushers won't be producing globs of black gold because somehow the price of oil will go way down. He didn't say what would give rise to this most, at the moment, unlikely scenario

maybe this will be the story Pluto drags up again: in the comments at Raw Story

August 30th, 2006 at 08:20:53

A long-time top-level government agency official joined a national security expert in confirming grand jury testimony last month, revealing that male and female heterosexual, homosexual, lesbian, bisexual and child prostitutes provided sexual services to numerous congressmen, senators, national media hosts and other federal officials who were compromised and made susceptible to blackmail at three Washington hotels. Sen. Leader William Frist is a regular client, Frist is reportedly a close friend of Bush 43 male consort and former Knoxville, Tennessee mayor Victor Ashe according to federal agents. National security expert Thomas Heneghan also alleged additional prostitute customers as British Prime Minister Tony Blair and former CNN host-reporter Robert Novak, both of whom were introduced into the sex-ring by GOP reporter and male prostitute Jeff Gannon, who visited the Bush White House living quarters 200 times without the assignations being recorded in visitor logs....

Richard Armitage confirms he was 'initial leak/source' for Plame 'leak'.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/08/

29/nyt-armitage-confirms-he_n_28313.html?p=3#comments

Here you go, Stan:
http://www.wrigley.com/wrigley/products/products_juicy_fruit.asp

Sally, oh no, I know you have your hands full. I just threw that out there for whoever is interested. I now have Solar Fire and will be digging up dates and locations for many of the candidates here. But, how does one find out birth times? I ran Nick Lampsons last night based on 12 noon. I ran Kinky's at noon as well a while back. Both charts were very positive for wins or at least being very involved in the future of Tx politics.

The gay Perry rumor has been circulating here for years, but nothing has come from it. Probably just a rumor. I would guess he has a few playmates of both sexes. Also, he is a complete idiot. He has screwed up more things here than Dumbya, or should I say, he's doing a fine job carrying the torch for the lunatics. Anyway, the people here are fed up with him and ready to see him go.

As far as Tx...Based on what I have seen in the chart, this state has dual personalities. It's full of condradictions.

And from what I can tell TX is turning various shades of blue these days. Houston, Austin, Sugar Land, San Antonio, Ft. Worth and the Rio Grande Valley are blue once again. If the rethugs takes the races the Nov, you can bet that the electronic voting machines did the dirty work.

"You know how you can tell a fundamentalist? Their hair is always caught in the ceiling fan."

I just spewed coffee all over my office....HAhahaha....

Good one Joanna!

peg, could you provide a link to that info you posted at 2:39 pm? Thx

More fuel to the fire....I'm sure the 'Lunatics' are overjoyed with this news....Damnit, would they quit feeding them. Don't they know not to feed the animals....

Officials: Iran still enriching uranium

VIENNA, Austria - Iran has kept enriching uranium despite the threat of U.N. sanctions and a looming deadline to freeze such operations, U.N. and European officials said Wednesday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060830/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_nuclear_19

Oh I think you are so right Cybear, Texas is going blue and Dems will make inroads into the state and I think the national elections as well. But Texas has a lot of Aquarius as does Perry, so the state as a whole connect with him, in much the same way as half of the US connects with george (Cancer's Sun)

Again, I agree about the machines and the retrograde Mercury on election day, more confusion and lots of concern around that. I don't have the birth info about the woman running (she has the best chance but I've not heard much about her or the race, I know she is Scott McClelland's mother and was a GOP'er and switched) that's another thing, we have people all over the place presenting as Democrats but are Trojan horses for the GOP. Again we must look at the person not the party title. I tried to track her birthdate down a year ago but havent' tried since, so she might be on Wikipedia by now, I will have to look. But for Perry, there are too many positive Jupiter contacts to and from Texas for them to get up a head of steam enough to overturn him. Unless he does something really stupid in this next month that embarrasses Texas.

it's from the comments at Raw Story, try here: http://www.rawstory.com/comments/18883.html

I'm afraid you are right Sally. Kinky is stealing Bell's votes just as Nader stole votes from Gore. Thing is, if Bell and Kinky could just join up somehow they would win, but Kinky will lose because of Bell votes and Bell will lose because of Kinky. Strayhorn will turn if she were to win, but we'll probably end up with Slicky Ricky when the dust settles. He's got those fundies behind him. He actively seeks votes by speaking at churches on a regular basis. uuugggh...

I cannot stand Rick Perry and what is it Molly Ivans calls him "Goodhair?" The thing is however, if the Dems can make solid inroads into the Texas legislature that would somewhat nullify Rickie Dickie Doo. Colorado has a GOP Gov. but a Dem legislature and the Governor has had to learn to comprimise and he hasn't done a bad job of it. We have Bob Boupreux running against Bill Ritter (Dem) for Governor, thus far Bob has shot himself in the foot with a bunch of groups including the ones who supported him as a US Representative, so we hope he can't make it as Governor. Colorado would have voted Bill Owens out if he had been up for election in 2004

Saturn-Neptune at work? People waking up, tuning out NeoCon BS/propaganda

Fox News' Ratings Take a Nosedive

TVNewser | Posted Tuesday August 29, 2006 at 05:12 PM

Somewhere, Keith Olbermann is sticking pins in a Bill O'Reilly voodoo doll: Fox News' ratings, TVNewser reports, are down since August of last year. Like, way down. Like down 28 percent in primetime among all viewers, down 20 percent in primetime in the "money demo" (viewers aged 25-54) and down 7 percent in daytime viewership overall. In fact, the only place Fox is up is during the day, when they managed a ratings increase of just 2 percent, and even then only in the money demo.

And lest you think this is an industry-wide trend, consider this: over the same time period, CNN and MSNBC are up. CNN's up 35 percent during the day -- 46 percent in the money demo -- and up 21 percent in primetime overall, 25 percent in the money demo. MSNBC's ratings increases aren't quite as impressive -- up 6 percent in primetime overall, 8 percent in the money demo, and up 36 percent in the money demo during the day, 26 percent overall.

We, of course, are Fair and Balanced here, so there won't be any celebrating later tonight. Certainly we will not be opening any champagne. That would be wrong.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eat-the-press/2006/08/29/fox-news-ratings-take-a-_e_28292.html

Garry:

Re: RED ALERT MUST READ

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wish it could be verified...will check the calendar

Straight-talk on Iran. Most interesting:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/009588.php

Talkpoints is probably right about Iran's military and, of course, the fact that have a right to defend themselves but I still consider them a loose canon who funds terrorists, may have access to dirty bombs and chemical weapons, and is backed by Russia and China. Now the fact that the Neocons want to engineer their downfall may give them more credence, and this is all working together somehow, but the government is still fundamentalist Islamic, and probably believes that killing is justified as an act of holy war (in spite of U.S. and Israeli government and military actions,and also because of them). I have books about the Jihad movement and it was ignited back in the 70s with the blowing up of U.S. Embassies and the U.S.S. Cole. There is one theory that this has been kept alive since the days of the Turkish Empire....that at one time these countries were leaders of successful civilizations and then were bypassed by Western progress, science and technology. There may be truth to the fact that they are jealous of us, although we have probably earned their dislike over the years. I just would not trust Iran.

That's just the problem Sharon. Who to trust????

No one.

Sharon, re your 10.02 post - maybe it's time you stopped watching network news. Your post includes many of the typical republican talking points that you may want to reexamine ... "loose cannon who funds terrorists" (where is the proof of it (besides the liars in the administration) - and you seem to be forgetting that we are funding Israel - who would like to blow Iran off the map - didn't they (Israel) just bomb Lebanon to pieces with our tax dollars and bombs?), you also posted, "they are jealous of us". The Iranians aren't jealous of us for goodness sake - their culture supercedes ours by thousands of years. They want us to leave them alone. Live and let live. That's all the Iranians want.

Don't let yourself be filled with hate against the other just because you don't know them. The fact of the matter is that we have done grevious wrong to Iran, not the other way around. And we continue to do so. Ask yourself where does this (your professed)antipathy towards Iran come from, since I take it you've never been there. Do you know any Iranians?

I apologize in advance if I cause you any distress with this posting ... it's just that you've always seemed to me to be so fair minded, that I was surprised at your post and the Iran bashing. If nothing else, think about what would happen to the U.S. if these madmen (BushCo and the neocons) continue along this road and we end up starting a war with Iran. Most of their arguments are those you included in your post, which are mostly propaganda or carefully confused arguments with maybe a bit of truth here or there, enough to justify telling the lie perhaps, for those whose motives are greed, money and power. And you mainly hear that stuff on network news and the newspapers. Remember that most of what they spout is propaganda designed to fill our minds with hate and fear so we will support the thievery and wars.

Think of the millions of Iranians that will die if the U.S. declares war on them. The U.S. will use nuclear weapons and wipe out as many Iranians as they can. They are not interested in the Iranians. They want the land and the resources. Think about the consequences to both of our countries. It's too distressing to imagine. I hope it never does happen.

I'd trust the Iranians before I would trust the gubmint and the neocons. Having said that, I do not believe that Iran won't defend itself. They will and should.

And don't forget Saudi Arabia!

Nor Dubai! Nor . . .
Well, as Pat C said, in this mess trust no one.

Hey Raven, true or not, I emailed it to the Ghost Troop guys, but no replies yet....

Wow, was LBJ the one who arranged the JFK hit?

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/300806jfk.htm

Dane Ruhdyar points out (my paraphrasing) When an idea loses power, those invested in the status quo will try to put in increased controls. At a national level, facism is a good example of this idea. Facism is when the government and business work together to put the good of the market ahead of the good of the people. I'm reminded of Ralph Nader describing G Bush as a corporation wearing pants. Another indicator: If you mention the US Constitution to some people in the street, they want to know if you are a gun toting survivalist militia nut......In the US chart, Katrina occurred on the 3rd pass of pluto in opposition to the US mars. I see katrina as the mars portion of that teeter totter. Pluto's role may be sneakier as in helping defeat the US dollar in its war with much of the rest of the world....Back to Ruhdyar: When the idea loses power, and controls instead of ideas try to rule, the entity is about to go into chaos. On the spiral up from chaos to order, we can hope a more democratic monetary system shall birth.

More on Iran....the Middle East's first democratic state until we interfered...

Persia's first encompassing Shi'a Islamic state was established under the Safavid dynasty in 1501. The decline of the Safavid state in the 17th century increasingly turned Persia into an arena for rising rival colonial powers such as Imperial Russia and the British Empire that wielded great political influence in Tehran under the Qajarid dynasty. Iran however, managed to maintain its sovereignty and was never colonized, making it unique in the region. With the rise of modernization in the late 19th century, desire for change led to the Persian Constitutional Revolution of 1905–1911. In 1921, Reza Shah Pahlavi staged a coup against the weakened Qajar dynasty. A supporter of modernization, Reza Shah initiated the development of modern industry, railroads, and establishment of a national education system, but his autocratic rule and unbalanced social reforms created discontent among many Iranians.

During World War II, Britain and the USSR invaded Iran from August 25 to September 17, 1941, to stop an Axis-supported coup and secure Iran's petroleum infrastructure. The Allies of World War II forced the shah to abdicate in favor of his son, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, whom they hoped would be more supportive. In 1951, an eccentric pro-democratic nationalist, Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh rose to prominence in Iran and was elected its first Prime Minister. As Prime Minister, Mossadegh alarmed the West by his nationalization of Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (later renamed BP), which controlled all of the country's oil reserves. Britain immediately put an embargo on Iran. Members of the British Intelligence Service approached the United States under President Eisenhower in 1953 to join them in Operation Ajax, a coup against Mossadegh. President Eisenhower agreed, and authorized the CIA to assist the BIS in overthrowing Mossadegh. The Shah at first attempted to formally dismiss Mossadegh, but this backfired and Mossadegh convinced the Shah to flee to Baghdad.

Regardless of this setback, the covert operation soon went into full swing, conducted from US Embassy in Tehran under the leadership of Kermit Roosevelt, Jr.. Agents were hired to facilitate violence; and, as a result, protests broke out across the nation. Anti- and pro-monarchy protestors violently clashed in the streets, leaving almost 300 dead. The operation was successful in triggering a coup, and within days, pro-Shah tanks stormed the capital and bombarded the Prime Minister's residence. Mossadegh surrendered, and was arrested on August 19, 1953. He was tried for treason, and sentenced to three years in prison.

Mohammad Reza Shah was the second monarch of the Pahlavi dynasty, and the last Shah of the Iranian monarchy.Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was then reinstated as Shah. His rule became increasingly autocratic in the following years and soon Iran became a model police state. With strong support from the US and UK, the Shah further modernized Iranian industry, but simultaneously crushed all forms of political opposition with his intelligence agency, SAVAK. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini became an active critic of the Shah's reign and publicly denounced the government. Khomeini, who was popular in Iran as a religious leader, was arrested and imprisoned for 18 months. After his release in 1964, Khomeini publicly criticized the United States government. Instead of executing of Khomeini, the Shah was persuaded to send him into exile by General Hassan Pakravan. Khomeini was sent first to Turkey and then to Iraq. While in exile, he continued to denounce the Shah and gained more popularity among Iranians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran

Tim (=Timothy?), if I might add to your thoughts about a democratic monetary system. First and foremost, in order to get some semblance of democracy back into our social and financial institutions, we must have corporations defined as businesses. Period. They have been masquerading as persons since the late 1800s and have morphed from being persons to being super-entities. And as they morphed, our status has shrunk and we seem headed back toward serfdom. Simultaneous with defining them legally as businesses, we need to have a personal privacy amendment for each individual citizen.

The history of repetition

By Mark Tran / World news 04:41pm

As the fifth anniversary of the September 11 attacks approaches, the Bush administration has embarked on a campaign to bolster waning public support for its foreign policy.

George Bush is to kick off a series of speeches, starting tomorrow at the annual convention of the American Legion, a veterans' group.

The warm-up acts came yesterday with speeches from the secretary of state Condoleezza Rice and the secretary of defence Donald Rumsfeld.

While Ms Rice gave a nuanced speech, Mr Rumsfeld went in guns blazing. First he took his audience on a "history lesson" reminding them of the spirit of appeasement that took hold in the face of fascism and Nazism. It is worth quoting what he said at length.

"Over the next decades, a sentiment took root that contended that if only the growing threats that had begun to emerge in Europe and Asia could be appeased, then the carnage and destruction of the then-recent memory of World War I might be avoided. It was a time when a certain amount of cynicism and moral confusion set in among the western democracies. When those who warned about a coming crisis - the rise of fascism and Nazism - were ridiculed and ignored."

Mr Rumsfeld did not call critics of the administration's current policies "appeasers" as such, but he did not have to, leaving his audience to join the dots for themselves.

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2006/08/30/the_history_of_repetition.html

Marta et al.,

I am not bashing Iran, nor am I advocating war on anyone, nor do I believe that just because Republicans have talking points that I have to write them all of as totally untrue. As I said, I have read books on this (some from the library, one that I own called "Sacred Rage" by Robin Wright which tracks the course of the recent "Jihad") written in the last 20 years by seemingly neutral scholars who base their research on events and evidence. The person who broached the theory about the Arabic countries, at one time superior in many ways to the West during the Ottoman or Turkish Empire, feeling that the West had passed them by and wanting to regain their original sense of cultural superiority, did painstaking research on the subject.

I read the 60 Minutes transcript of Mike Wallace's interview with the president of Iran and I found him to be very shrewd and probably calcuated. I don't believe him any more than I believe Bush, but I am sure that some of what each of them says is true. As far as I am concerned, it is naive to assume that he wants peace since he is a religious fundamentalist and their literature teaches about holy war. (By the war, I would love to be wrong about this.) I do know Iranians - and they are very fine people. I have also read some good books about contemporary Iran - such as "Reading Lolita in Tehran." Something like 75% of the country is under 30 and want to live a modern Western lifestyle. Why they voted in a religious fundamentalist is beyond me and I will have to read up on it. He may even be a good leader, and the people may have grown to love and support him (as Nancy eluded to on her Blog) but I don't believe he really wants peace. I believe he wants to exterminate Israel first and publicly admitted that on one occasion.

Speaking of Israel (and this is an old argument here), many in the Arab countries have wanted to bomb it off the map since 1948. I, for one, believe this country has a right to exist. Do I approve of everything its government does? No, but I understand that Israel has to be very aware all the time of its security and many of its actions derive from this. Even with its military ability, it is a very, very small country totally surrounded by much larger, unfriendly countries who probably would have tried to destroy it a long time ago if it did not have nuclear weapons. There is the aspect of Israel abusing its power over the Palestinians but would it have continued to do so had the PLO and Hamas not committed agression all these years? Even Arafat said that he should have accepted the 2000 Clinton Peace Plan. I think Israel had to learn to be very tough in order to exist and, in the process lost something of its soul and balance and went to extremes. It is a type of paranoia but there is a difference between paranoia for a good reason and paranoia for no reason. I still go back to the old Indian adage of not judging a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Are our opinions based on complete and thorough historical and political knowledge of these situations? Are we really that wise and learned?

I do not take offense, Marta. Thanks for telling me that you see me as fair. I do try to be. I admire you for your passion and desire to fight for the underdog.

I'll go back to my original point. Just because my enemy lies and manipulates, it does not mean that some of what it says is not true. If we write it all off without thoroughly checking it out (it's not easy but it is possible if we are lucky enough to find reputable sources), we run the risk of ignoring reality.

Comment
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hizbullah's victory has transformed the Middle East
The defeat of the regional superpower could yet open the way to a wider settlement of the Israel-Palestine conflict

George Galloway in Beirut
Thursday August 31, 2006

Guardian

As the smoke clears from the battlefield of the 34-day war in Lebanon, it would be a mistake to count the cost only in fallen masonry and fresh graves. All is changed, changed utterly, by the defeat that the whole of Israel is now debating, from the cabinet through the lively press to the embittered reservists at the falafel stall. Practically the only person in the world who claims Israel won the war is George Bush - and we all know his definition of the words "mission accomplished".
Reports that the Hizbullah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, expressed regret this week at having underestimated Israel's reponse to the capture of two of its soldiers were misleading. In fact, Nasrallah thanked God that the attack came when the resistance movement was prepared, as he was convinced Israel would have otherwise invaded later in the year at a time of its choosing.

If the fierce thicket of the Iraqi resistance stopped the Bush war spreading to Syria then the extraordinary Hizbullah victory has surely made the world think again about an attack on Iran. But the main - and maybe the most welcome - shift in the 40-year-old paradigm of the Israeli-Arab conflict is the puncturing of the belief in a permanent and unchallengeable Israeli military superiority over its neighbours and the hubris this has induced in Israeli leaders - from the sleek Shimon Peres through the roughhouse of Binyamin Netanyahu to the stumbling Mr Magoo premiership of Ehud Olmert.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,329565078-103677,00.html

Shy, this is my motto and the sentences appear under my name on another site.

Money is not free speech, and corporations are not persons. Can we correct this atrocity? NAFTA + CAFTA = HAFTA relocate to work.

I wish true Democrats would start using these thoughts to serve the people.

I do not admire Iran, or Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Israel or many of the other African countries, because of their governments, not their people. The list of the governments I do not admire is long, and it includes this one. So many of the cultures opress their women and children in particular. Pumping up any one of them to diminish the other is not the answer. That will never bring peace or wellbeing to anyone. It's an old failing, and the results have been proven thorughout history.

NEOBuckeye--not only, according to rawstory.com, are they gonna destroy the 2004 ballots in Ohio, but lookit this:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/009594.php

A long time ago, Cap'n Sally said the stench in Ohio would keep growing and growing and growing. And from these two recent actions, I figure there's enough stench there to keep investigations going for years--once we get into position to have those investigations.
Please comment, for you know the situation much better than I.

Ooop! Here's the rawstory 2004 paper ballots to be destroyed link:
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/NYT_Ohio_officials_prepare_to_destroy_0829.html

Sharon, I agree with many points in your last post. However, I am still confused. Why is Iran your enemy? What has Iran done to you?

OLBERMANN FOR PRESIDENT!!!

Follow-up to wv's exultation:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240

Aug. 30, 2006 | 8:34 p.m. ET

Feeling morally, intellectually confused?

The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack.

Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.

Mr. Rumsfeld’s remarkable speech to the American Legion yesterday demands the deep analysis—and the sober contemplation—of every American.

For it did not merely serve to impugn the morality or intelligence -- indeed, the loyalty -- of the majority of Americans who oppose the transient occupants of the highest offices in the land. Worse, still, it credits those same transient occupants -- our employees -- with a total omniscience; a total omniscience which neither common sense, nor this administration’s track record at home or abroad, suggests they deserve.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12131617/

The Five Morons Revisited

Paul Craig Roberts

When the neocons launched the Bush administration's invasions of
Afghanistan and Iraq and announced plans for invading Syria and Iran,
I labeled Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Rice "the five
Morons." With the passage of time I see that I over-estimated their
mental capabilities.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14761.htm

===
Rummy's Reverie: "The Media made me lose the War"

By Mike Whitney

"No offense, Mr. Secretary, but you're losing the goddamn war and
you're blaming it on some fictitious Islamic media which only exists
in your fevered imagination."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14757.htm

===
The Lobby and the Israeli Invasion of Lebanon: Their Facts and Ours

By James Petras

The Jewish Lobby does work 'day in and day out' to make sure that
Israel can ethnically cleanse Palestine, drop 5-ton bombs on Lebanese
apartment buildings, bulldoze villages and isolate the US from even
its closest allies at the expense of the US taxpayers, our democratic
ideals and our sovereignty. And the American Jewish Committee has the
chutzpah (arrogance) to say that it is 'our mutually beneficial
link'. Now that is a bit of political dishonesty!

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14762.htm

Congressmember Murtha: " Disappointed" by Hillary Clinton's Refusal
to Endorse Troop Withdrawal Plan:

Democracy Now! interviews Congressmember John Murtha (D - PA) about
his position on the Iraq war, the Haditha massacre and Sen. Hillary
Clinton's refusal to endorse his troop withdrawal plan.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/30/1417256

Israeli occupation forces kill 8 Palestinians in Gaza attack:

Among those killed was a 14-year-old boy who was shot dead. A
30-year-old man was killed by a heavy caliber bullet to the head as
he was on the rooftop of his house.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14754.htm

===
Annan: Israel must stop killing Palestinians:

In meeting with Palestinian President Abbas in Ramallah, UN
secretary-general slams Israel, says more than 200 Palestinians
killed since the end of June. He also calls on Israel to lift
blockade on Gaza, allow free transfer of goods

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3297757,00.html

===
The Palestinian Vice-Prime Minister kidnapped by Israel:

Former rector of the Faculty of Law at the National University of Al
Najah in Nablus, Mr Shaer is a moderate person. He does not belong to
any political party, and is not a member of Hamas as widespread in the
media.

http://www.voltairenet.org/article143228.html

Sharon

What do you think Americans would be doing if we
had been occupied for 39 years?

And as in the 1700's, they would be call "patriots'.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1860821,00.html

Disaster capitalism: how to make money out of misery

The privatisation of aid after Katrina offers a glimpse of a terrifying future in which only the wealthy are saved

Naomi Klein

WV lol I just realized that many Native Americans could still consider their country occupied.
Oh my, I like the Iranian President better then the one we have. He has to be one wiley critter to be where he is, same with Putin, who is I read the most trusted leader in the world.
Bush, Blair, they look stupid and demented. They are so spun on their own spin they haven't gotten back in touch with reality.
Oh and I have to concur Iraq, Iran, will be just fine without our assistance. They have had thousands of years of practice. I want those billions of war dolllars going back into American infrastructure and recovering the Gulf Coast!!! Gall darn it!!!

So Pat C how is George Allen faring now that his racism is a national joke ?

Which of course implies that if Virginians re-elect a racist Senator then Virginia is pro racist. Wow.

You can write KO and thank him, you know:
KOlbermann@msnbc.com

Woo-hoo, NEOB: Apparently, there's now a move afoot to delay destruction of those 2004 ballots "for a few months." Hot diggity dawg!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2486270

Hi Marta, Glad you could see some of my points. Iran's mullahs are dangerously narrow minded, following centuries old Muslim laws that include stoning and killing women for sexual acts. They have a restrictive repressive society that surpresses civil and religious rights. They fund terrorists and believe in holy war against infidels. They have a mindset so unlike ours that it would be difficult to predict what they would do but they do not hesitate to inflict violent punishment. The current president has denied the Holocaust and threatened to blow Israel off the map. As I said, the Iranians I have met are sweet and wonderful. They want their freedom as far as I know and do not want this ultra restrictive way of life. The rulers may not be the Talliban (who blew up ancient and huge stone statues of the Buddha) but there is much similarity.

Here are a few websites that carry information on the above:

1) Denying the holocaust as well as the rights of other religious groups:
http://www.wluml.org/english/newsfulltxt.shtml?cmd%5B157%5D=x-157-528276

2) Subjecting students and journalists to violent acts of harrassment and punishment:
http://www.californiaaggie.com/media/storage/paper981/news/2004/11/18/FrontPage/Former.Journalist.Illuminates.Student.Dangers.In.Iran-1318801.shtml?norewrite200608302303&sourcedomain=www.californiaaggie.com

3) Mideast War Highlights Dangers of a Nuclear Iran by Lawrence Haas, former communications director for Al Gore.
http://www.examiner.com/a-185529~Lawrence_J__Haas__Mideast_war_highlights_dangers_of_a_nuclear_Iran.html

I see your point wv, but I do not think the revolutionaries targeted civilians as did suicide bombers. Of course, Israel has now shown itself capable of doing the same thing, but previously did not, using rubber bullets and tear gas during the two Palestinian Intifadas. I truly hope that the 2 state solution occurs in a fair and just manner with reparations where possible but in the past 10-15 years, I have observed that first the PLO and then Hamas did everything possible to destroy any attempt at peace. They cannot be equated to the Revolutionary war rebels.

Morgana, if he is elected, I'll be blaming the votng machines.

Apologies for being such a live-wire today, and using up so much band-width, but I've things on my mind.

Help me out here. This guy Jeffs has been "arranging" "marriages" between "underage" females and "older" guys. This is being framed as a "polygamy" issue by some:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0509/p02s01-ussc.html

Now, can someone tell me, other than using "marriage" and "religion" as a cloak, what is the difference between what this guy has been doing and trafficing in sex-slaves, and in this case trafficing in sex-slaves for pedophiles?

I am just stunned by this. Young females ("underaged") are being horribly exploited and abused. And this is being presented as an issue involving "polygamy", "marriage" and "religion"?

And what role (shudder--I'm not sure I even want to know) do the parents of these children play in this sex-slave trafficing?

Stop this train. I'm outta here.

shy, from what I've heard from interviews, these young girs are taught for the earliest days that their sole purpose is to marry and bear children for their husband, whom they serve.....by their mothers.

I'm reminded of the syndrome people suffer when they are abducted. I can't remember the name fo the syndrome.

It's called the Stockholm Syndrome.

The Stockholm syndrome is a psychological response sometimes seen in a hostage, in which the hostage exhibits loyalty to the hostage-taker, in spite of the danger (or at least risk) in which the hostage has been placed. Stockholm syndrome is also sometimes discussed in reference to other situations with similar tensions, such as battered person syndrome, child abuse cases, and bride kidnapping.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

That's it Cybear! Thank you so much!

Your welcome Pat!

Shy, it's also brainwashing. No different than what organized religion does, but to the extreme.

Woo-hoo, all! It's up:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/30/keith-olbermann-delivers-one-hell-of-a-commentary-on-rumsfeld/

Yup, Morgana... I would certainly agree with you. The Americas--the sovereign nation of millions of people--in particular the chunk called the US--were invaded & colonized by greedy cruel slaughtering pink supremacists from old europe, who did their same-old same-old same-old games. Same pattern in the mid-east. That's the long & short of it. (...Unpopulated-New World-&-god-said-so-manifest-destiny my ass...)

Oh, NEOB, you got a good one here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJvxW8RaPlE

An extra fine piece by Eric Francis...

Wednesday, August 30, 2006 | Planet, house, sign...

ONE comment on yesterday's entry suggested that I tend to link the themes of houses, signs & planets--in particular, the 8th, Scorpio & Pluto. This is a mistaken impression that I owe to a few shortcuts I've had to take in summarizing recent events involving Pluto. Houses, signs & planets are related, but they come from different levels of the game of astrology, if you can call it that, & it's a helpful meditation studying the differences. If you look, you'll see that any house & its corresponding sign are like two siblings: exactly the same, & totally different.

Houses are more worldly, grounded in the environment. Signs, while also representing things & environments, tend to be more cosmic & biological. An example of a Scorpio theme is DNA. An example of an 8th house theme is decoding the DNA, cutting it up & selling it for billions of dollars.

In any case, when we look at the current revision of the world, "all the things that seem to matter most" tend to be 8th house themes, derived from Scorpio in a more organic form, & associated with Pluto processes as Pluto makes its way around the solar system. In the current astrological climate, we tend to forget that Mars is also a driving force in the whole experience: desire, pushed to the limits--or in many cases, made subservient to a "higher power"--the company one works for. ... http://planetwaves.net/

Just learned that Mike Malloy was fired from AirAmerica... too radical perhaps. Clear Channel, which owns AirAmerica, has a better likeness for israel flag-waving mealy-mouthed whining self-promoting al frankin one supposes.

Shy, Blackwell's attempt to shred the 2004 ballots is nothing more than an attempt by Blackwell to cover his backside. The latest poll results I saw had Congressman Ted Strickland leading by 20 points at 52%, over Blackwell, who has dropped to 32%. The election is now just two months away. Unless Strickland or his campaign falter in some surprise, catastrophic manner, he will be the next governor, and Blackwell's political career is most likely at a decisive and necessary end. His term as Ohio Secretary of State ends this year, too.

Even if Blackwell outwardly is feigning his usual conceit and overconfidence, the signs around his campaign suggest desperation. I believe that Strickland has matched Blackwell's fundraising efforts, which have tapered off. Most other Ohio Republicans are keeping their distance from him. Those that I know or have heard from associate Blackwell with Taft, and they are thoroughly disgusted with Taft and his passive, hands-off approach to running the state, even as our economy continues to crumble, and people, businesses and jobs flee. Strickland is enough of a moderate that they would sooner trust him over Blackwell, who has aligned himself with extremist religious fundamentalists. Lots of Ohioans are still church-going folk, but not to the extremes where Blackwell wants to take us.

Somewhere in the back of Ken Blackwell's mind, like his buddies George and Dick, he must be thinking about how he is going to keep himself from ending up in serious legal jeopardy. He may have delayed shredding the 2004 ballots, but only to try and make himself look like not such a bad guy. Too little, too late.

Brown vs. DeWine is another story, however. Mr. "Nice Guy" DeWine if he ever was, isn't anymore, getting desperate and going nasty against Congressman Sherrod Brown. Brown has pulled ahead in recent weeks, mostly due to general public disgust with incumbent, ineffectual Republicans, but the Republicans still feel they can keep this race close and win it. Maybe if Blackwell can't save himself, he can still save DeWine with more miscounted ballots. These guys are worried sick about the Dems claiming both the House and Senate and will pull out all the stops to try and stop that from happening. Once again, too little, too late.

I hope that helps give you a better picture of what is going on up here. Incidentally, Cleveland just REclaimed the unfortunate title of "Poorest City in the US" from Detroit. The surrounding region of Northeastern Ohio where I live has fared little better over the past decade. The Rust Belt just can't catch a break, it seems.

Hi to all, and responding to Sharon's last post about repression of women, fundmentalist religion in Iran, etc.

In the end, they (the Iranians) have a right to pursue their own religion, keep their government if they want, and follow their cultural heritage.

As an example, it's always a good idea to ask whether we would want Iran to invade us because of all the bad things our gubmint is doing. Clearly the answer is no. Therefore, we should not be in favor (or buying into the script of it's ok to invade others because athey are different than we are) of doing to others what we would not have done to ourselves. Network news is carefulling scripting and shaping what they want you to think. That's why I never watch it because it's very easy for them to plant seeds in our brains and they have experts who help them do it. They pick a simple theme, "war on terror" and then selectively sow the seeds of fear and hatred against an "enemy (whoever they say the enemy is) and then just keep repeating it over and over. It helps if you also seed words like Islamofascism, which really don't mean anything, but they've managed to make "islam = terrorist" in some people's minds and they know that "fascist = nazi's" in our minds from world war II and voila. Instant enemy and how do you refute it. You can't. It's designed to confuse you and make you stop thinking and give up and let the "experts" (another one of those "words") tell you what to think about a given topic. And it's very effective.

Again, the U.S. corporate propaganda is invested in making Iran (flavor of the day) our "enemy", which in reality, they are not, in order to justify war (been there, done that Sharon, right?). We are the aggressors. We are the ones who are frothing at the mouth and look like madmen. They must think we are collectively mad and total heathens (and hypocrites to boot).

Iran will be a manufactured war. Just like Iraq (and most probably Afganistan, as well). And network news and corporate owned newspapers will help to feed the frenzy of fear in order to whip the populace up (anyone remember Condi's mushroom clouds). Fool me once ...

In the end, Iran has a right to be Iran. They haven't invaded anyone. They have a right to defend themselves. They have a right to have nuclear energy. This is all being manufactured, just like Iraq.

I can bet that if you heard networks news anchors all of a sudden extolling the virtues of Iran, it's people, it's government, you'd change your mind about Iran. All of a sudden Iran would be "good". And the truth would most probably be neither. There are things about Iran that are different for us. It's not our culture. Personally, as a woman, I'd much rather be a westerner (but of course I'm biased), than from the middle east. However, if I'd grown up there, I'd find my culture perfectly natural and good.

You mentioned their "fundamentalist" religion. What? First of all, theirs are worse than ours? Please! And second, Islam is not a fundmentalist religion, any more than Christianity is a fundamentalist religion. It's what people do with their religious beliefs that makes it "fundamentalist". Just because someone is a muslim does not make them a terrorist. Most people, no matter what their religious beliefs, just want to be left alone to enjoy their lives, families, children, pets!, etc.

Anyway, I really hope and pray every day that Iran won't be next. Somewhat for selfish reasons too. We will not remain unscathed for one and for another, I find it totally unbearable to think that my tax dollars are being used to kill off other cultures and people so there can be a MacDonald's on every corner - when our own country is tanking.

MARTA!! YOU GO, GIRL!!!!

Thanks JoO, it's been one of those days ... thank goodness we can let off some steam here at AW! Thanks Sally!!!!

It occurred to me that israel is another kind of "Indian" reservation. It occurred to me that this latest israel in particular is a manufactured nation made by pink supremacist anglo/jewish neocons in order to gain control of arab countries AND its resources... as per usual... & all & sundry jewish folks who buy into it as their own very special god-given manifest destiny piece of real estate... which it isn't. What they will find is grief... nothin' but excruciating heart-rendering grief... & a growing realization that they must Let Go of that La Grande Belief. Facts are rooted in some kind of reality... beliefs are not.

Hi All
Marta, thanks for your post. It was heartfelt and needs to be said again and again.

Sharon, I share your distaste for some of the things the Iranian mullahs do: particularly the treatment of women... it can be shocking in the extreme.

Just before leaving Australia on this trip, in early August, I saw a documentary on a young woman that was hanged for 'adultery'. She wasn't married, but the taxi driver that continually assuaulted her was. It was shocking and made me feel sick. She was hanged from a crane as have been many other people, whether male or female. The abuses are incredible.

This, and other horrid things they get up to, does not excuse the US wanting to bomb them. Iran is a beautiful country filled with beautiful people. I had the pleasure to go there in 1976, the Shah was still in power and it was quite something... the countryside was gorgeous, the mosques extraordinary in their beauty. The people fascinating, welcoming and warm.

As I'm sure we all know on this board, war kills and maims and ruins the lives of the innocent and that's what will happen if the US goes after Iran. It will be shocking, I imagine, and it will affect all of us in some way.

Further to the horrible documentary I saw on that poor young woman, I saw a beauooootiful movie a few years back. It was called The Color of Paradise... perhaps folks on this board might like to Google it. It was so sad, so beautiful, so endearing... I don't often cry over movies, but I started to cry within minutes of it starting and was still upset days after seeing it.

It was about a blind boy that no one really wanted.... boy, did it stir me up emotionally!! the color of the movie was gorgeously colorful and yet bleakly black and white. I encourage anyone to watch it.

I despair of the propaganda on the news.

I'm currently staying in a house with an 18 year old son who firmly believes everyone has the right to carry a gun to protect themselves from those 'out there that want to get you'. I talked with him for a while about it, but was never going to be able to change his mind: he's convinced that we in Australia with our rather strict guns laws are the idiots... pointing out to him that 30,000 Americans die each year from gun shot wounds didn't seem to move him at all. Weird. I asked him how many people die from terrorist plots inside the US... I think I gave him something to think about for all of about 30 seconds... he's into the Republicans, it's a no win. I woke a few times last night almost haunted by the fact that there's people like him around me.

I get somewhat FURIOUS inside when I really think about the gun (read also war) thing. What on earth gives someone else the right to have something on their body that can snuff out my life in a second? It's obscene

and so, of course, is war.

Sharon, I so can understand your feelings about the Iran thing, but in all of this we need to remember that folks is folks everywhere. There are good and kind people everywhere... and the puritans in the US are often extremely cruel and restrictive of our freedoms, just in a less obvious way.

Marta, again, thanks

Greetings from Phoenix (and waving to PatC!)
and thanks to Sally 'n all for this board
Lynda

we share your idea indeed, keep on

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