Too bad Kerry didn't have this information...
this government is a disgrace!

http://207.44.245.159/article7003.htm

This is about right - Luckovich is great!

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/luckovich/index.html

Nancy,

However did you manage to pull this article together when your Mom is recovering from surgery? You are a wonder!

Marvelous, marvelous music to my ears (Venus?)...

"Like wild and untamed waves in a stormy sea, reality came crashing onto the shore of Bush’s increasingly fragile delusions, inexorably washing them away in the public mind."

You have such a way with words! Is this the beginning of the 'earth moving from under' aWol that Sally was referring to months ago...?
Washed away those millions the Repugs put into TV ads trying to paint Kerry as flip-flopper also...

Looking forward to Friday and another round --- another KO by Kerry over aWol... Tuesday night? Cheney is certainly seasoned, but 'Darth Vader' next to Johnny Appleseed doesn't play too well, maybe Edwards will manage to hold his own... let's hope so.

Thanks so much for taking the time and effort to bring this terrific article to us... hope your Mom is moving gently through her surgery...

Light to all

Great article!

I think another dynamic Edwards can take advantage of in the debate is his youth. Overall, I don't think the vice-presidential debate is going to have much of an impact on the larger race. But seriously now, all that Jupiter energy seems to have really helped to start moving the country in the right direction. The shift was almost tangible last week, and if you didn't know what it was, you would have felt it anyway. All of the planetary archetypes are very powerful in their own way, and I have experienced the power of Venus in the past. I got my job on the campaign during the Venus occultation back in June. I think Venus is really going to help John Kerry, especially when you also consider the reality that the women's vote is probably going to decide the election this year.

Question: how do I go about finding out when my own Saturn returns will take place?

In light of having the added responsiblility of your Mom's medical issue, you managed to knock another analysis out of the ball park (metaphor for this season). Thank you so much.

Further, Nancy, "Debate 2 may be even bleaker than one," sent spasms of delight throughout my body in hopes that the public might really see the real character of the man who occupies the WH.

Of course, I'm not thrilled that Dr. Death "might" out do Edwards, so I hope for the Neptune/Moon energy to manifest in a miracle.

Excellent job.

Thanks, all!! I felt like this was more of an update than my usual more editorialized article (more fun to write). But I really didn't have the time to do a biggie. I just wanted to look at the aspects for the debates. I hope I am right about number 2. Kerry doesn't have the ultrabeautiful Venus Jupiter, but Bush is so under the exact Saturn that there is no wiggle room for him. It will be interesting. It is perhaps more indicative that Kerry has Jupiter on his Neptune after the debate, giving him some euphoric energy for a few days. If our 8:03 time is right, he will continue doing well with Jupiter on his MC. If our time is wrong, he may dip a bit after debate number 3, but not much, I wouldn't think.

Dave, even I can help with that. What sign and degree was Saturn in when you were born. Each time it returns (usually about twice per lifetime--around age 30 and 60) is contained in the ephemereses. Lemme know. I'd be so pleased to do something for you.

nancy, thanks so much for the analysis. i never thought i'd even want to think about saturn returns again. if the concept means anything, it means all of *'s trash falling out of the closet i've thought edwards would give cheney a good spanking. i'm hedging a bit given 'the stars' you talk about. in this one, edwards just needs to hold his own and score a few good shots. i'm sure we'll hear edwards say something like 'i've sat at the table with people like you all my life and havn't backed off yet' (or some other populist jab). another way to look at is: edwards is so much more accomplished in argumentation (as a very top flight attorney), the dickster will need all he can get just to survive the night. it will be interesting.

can't wait for debate #2 given the prospect of bush doing even worse than #1. OMG, i just can't imagine how much worse. maybe he will speak in tongues or have a full blown conversation with either his earpiece or the imaginary voices.

teresa, thanks for your kind comments. jo special thanks for yours!

Wonderful, Nancy. I second Janet's remarks.

Re the 2nd presidential debate I guess Bush will be trying harder and I'm wondering if maybe he will be Too talkative. 4 planets transiting his third house, plus the 4 natals there (no wonder communication is such an issue in his life). Somehow the image that came to my mind was a Chatty Cathy doll.

Everyone (especially those in or near a swing state) should seriously consider volunteering for the Kerry campaign. Visualizing is great and all, but physical labor or just making phone calls will help manifest the visualizing we are doing!!!

Go to: http://www.johnkerry.com

or

http://volunteer.johnkerry.com/

This is my favorite line.

"Like wild and untamed waves in a stormy sea, reality came crashing onto the shore of Bush’s increasingly fragile delusions, inexorably washing them away in the public mind."

Oh gosh, let it continue just that way!

Cheney is actually a fine speaker. He can say the most outrageous things is the most casual tone. He can the repeated lines in a way that is interesting rather than redundant. It worries me. I'm told that Edwards is a great closer, and boy I hope he is just that....a closer who leaves them breathless.

Shylurker,

Thanks for the offer. Saturn was 9 degress, 21 minutes in Libra when I was born. The reason I ask about the Saturn return is that it seems like a time of great struggle in people's lives. I would like to think that it is possible to create the conditions in one's live for a more positive karma than the likes of George W. Bush would reap. Since I am terrible at geometry, and have no sense of direction, I am not much of an astrologer. I have to rely on the advice of people like you to help with my own chart. Any info on the timing of the Saturn return would be helpful. Thanks.

Well, Mr. Dave, Saturn goes to 9 deg Libra in October 2010. It'll move, forward, then backtrack and hover around, retrograding to 10 deg Libra in June 2011, and then move on. That's according to the German Ephemeris, which I use. So, you've got lots of time to wonder about how it'll affect you and (more importantly) how YOU'LL react to it.

Different strokes for different folks--always!!!! Get someone to do a good interpretation of your natal stuff, and then on to major transits.

It's all very personalized, of course. For me, Saturn returns have been interesting, but not scarey. But, then, I don't have Saturn in the 12th house and I've tried to do no harm.

Latest news week poll has kerry in the lead!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6159637/site/newsweek

Oh, and I should add, Dave, that the astrologers here (Sally, Morgana, Nancy, and so on) will certainly be of enormous help to you in looking at your chart and all the transits (and they never stop--dammit!). Also, you might want to contact Claudia Dikinis.

Oh, and I should add, Dave, that the astrologers here (Sally, Morgana, Nancy, and so on) will certainly be of enormous help to you in looking at your chart and all the transits (and they never stop--dammit!). Also, you might want to contact Claudia Dikinis.

I hate it when I double-post. Pls pardon.

Barbara, did the Chatty Cathy doll also pee in her pants? I can't remember.

Thanks Shylurker!

Something to look forward to. ;-)

Someday, when I'm better paid and have more time on my hands, I will consult a professional astrologer on the matter.

As for Mr. Bush, if his Saturn return hurts, he deserves every second of it for what he has done to this country.

Dave, recrimination for those who do so much against the helpless, the powerless, the impoverished--the wretched of the earth--is absolutely deserved, is it not? To say nothing of betrayal of your country. And there you are, in sharpest contrast, doing all you can to help rescue this incredible mess we are in. Kudos to you, Dave, many, many kudos! You are a champ!

http://www.septembereleventh.org/alerts/publicaccess.php

Get 9/11 Truth on Local Public Access TV

Nancy, again you've produced excellent, poetic work; I salute you. Hugs for your Mom.

Judy Gemini, Yes I remember what you said about your grandson now. I bet he will be quite the Indigo Child!

Sorry all, the Pluto induced brainfog has given me a weird new dyslexia I guess, the way I keep switching FireFox to FoxFire on that Mozilla software. From everyone's experiences it seems to point to a possible confirmation of our suspicions about Microsoft et al.

Dave, on my first Saturn return I went through an intense life review that included indepth questions on my past. I eventually realized and got to unload family psychological junk I'd been lugging around for decades. It was very freeing. But it was hard work over years and I didn't always know what and who to ask questions of concerning an "uneasy" feeling or memory. You could say it's a mandatory emotional, psychological, and spiritual "house cleaning". [Fortunately, I wasn't totally on my own because of a younger sister going through the same process and we were sounding-boards for each other.] Since my natal Saturn is in my 9th house in Scorpio I was surprised at how much the return was about reviewing everything in my life and not just the house and sign's areas.
So, how have you folks experienced your second return? What do I have to look forward to surfacing for viewing?

Jill

Dave, Saturn is very comfortable in Libra and therefore your Saturn returns should not be too awful. As a matter of fact, they should be a time of just plain hard and important, serious work. Could be a time of really great accomplishment.

What house is it in? That could make a difference.

Nancy, thank you very much for the interesting debate article!

What do you think of this analysis from Kenneth Bowser? Not about debates but he brings up some interesting and rather frightening things I have not heard and wondered what you might see for Kerry in January 2005.

http://www.westernsiderealastrology.com/events/events.asp

Well stated.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5030718-112564,00.html

Kerry still the outsider at home....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5030706-111675,00.html

A refreshing view of the debate....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5031103-112564,00.html

B* to sign the fourth tax cut at about 11:30 am, EDT in Washington DC.

Election is FOUR weeks from tomorrow... this time will get interesting, don't you think? Nat'l storms and media storms... and freepers and trolls or whatever will be coming out from under the woodwork on every website they can sniff out.

Markos at dKos has an editorial up this a.m. 'bout traffic on his site, his time being consumed working to win the election, etc. It's an interesting read to kinda get a perspective about 'eye on the prize' kind of thing. One comment in particular stood out for me...

"There's another dynamic that is currently causing a lot of grief -- the desire to close ranks close to an election. "Groupthink". And while I am no paragon of party unity, it's not a desire I'll fight. We should close ranks before an election. Those who insist on fighting those battles now are merely distracting from the ultimate goal. Eyes on the prize, and all.

Once the election is over, we can get back to fighting over policy, whether to tackle the DLC, hating Greens or welcoming them to the fold, being a "Wellstone democrat" versus "Dean Democrat" versus who knows what else, etc.

For now, if you come here and trash a Democratic candidate, expect to be trashed back (just like I get trashed when I criticize the party). If you can't take the heat, then don't write that post or diary. Or consider returning after November 2. It's that simple. This is a Democratic blog after all."

Granted ours is not a Democratic blog per se, we do have our goal of electing Kerry and reclaiming the Senate and as much of the House as possible...

In that regard, Sally, I wonder if you have any thoughts in this regard... we don't have any 'house rules' here, like some other sites... and that can be a good thing... however, these weeks will be tense and short, and troll-filled. Maybe my Virgo R is getting out of control here. Anybody else have an opinion on this? I wasn't here in 2002... was this site? What was it like before the election?

As for the current strife, it was much worse

Whoops, that last line should not be there... it came with the comments from Kos I cut and pasted. How inept am I? ['As for the current strife, it was much worse' delete!]

Pat C.,

Notice how little fanfare there is about the signing of this 'tax cut' --- read "gift to the wealthy"... media coverage is almost nil...

Flashback:

1997: Texas Gov * pushes through massive tax cuts for the most wealthy Texans. The state had a budget surplus when dubya took office, but * leaves the governor's mansion for the pResidency, Texas is suffering record-setting cost overruns.

EDwards vs Halliburton...

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/printer_100504Z.shtml

Jo, if I remember correctly, Vis had a site set up for political discussion with a link to this site. And the dialogue here remained mostly astrological with very little disruption, with the exception of a big Nader fan. But even that fan didn't get too out of hand.

Jo, one more thing. This site has been blessed with smart, polite and respectful posters. Therefore, any exception stands out like a sore thumb. Those we quickly know to ignore.

Thanks soooo much, Nancy! I feel measurably better after reading your article. I wish all good things for you and your mother. Huggz,
Teg

Barbara, I have a Chatty Cathy doll and believe me Bush is no Chatty Cathy (LOL!)

Jo, I understand your concern about disruption on the board but I think Sally does a great job of moderating and I've been pleasantly surprised how little discord there is. I think that we should just deal with trolls, freepers, etc. one at a time unless they get out of hand. BTW, your posts always give me something to think about. Thanks.

Nancy, thanks for the interesting insight. Re: the "cliffhanger" election: I do not believe it is "tied" like Yahoo news is now stating. At least not here in Oregon.

I read letters to the Editor in the daily newspaper The Oregonian. While they can't print every letter, they summarize what they got. They've been getting about 600 letters a day.

Of these, 500 letters are in favor of Kerry. (I'll keep track for a few days and get exact figures).

At lunchtime, I go out for a walk by my office. Almost all the signs are Kerry/Edwards lawn signs. I've only seen 2 Bush/Cheney lawn signs.

I think the media is lying on this one. They want to be able to hedge their bets on the Diebold Fudge Factor.

Sorry to hear that ole Cheney is supposed to be lookin' good tomorrow night. Hope Edwards gives him a run for his money and comments on the Haliburton, Enron, Energy Task Force stuff to the extent that he's allowed to.

I'm of the Saturn-in-Libra generation and have mine at 0 or 1 degrees Libra in my 4th angular house. Since I have Uranus in 6 deg. Cancer, is there a square involved? I remember feeling lonely and depressed about turning 30 during my first Saturn return. I hope the 2nd one is better. Prior to that, I'll have Saturn opposing my Pisces stellum as it transits Virgo. Sometimes these Saturn transits are good as they cause you to buckle down and get serious, or, as my grandmother used to say "take yourself in hand."

Ha, Teresa, I was ROFL at your post.
Didn't stop to think earlier that I was really putting down poor C. Cathy.

Shylurker, nope I think Chatty Cathy was too mature to pee in her pants.

;-)

Re Saturn returns--I have natal Saturn in Pisces conj natal Mars--both my returns were like shipwrecks and being washed up on a new shore. But I have heard of Saturn returns bringing rewards and honors for diligent service.

I should have added, other Saturn hard aspects have brought me increased responsibility in a good way, and I think returns may do that too, for some people.

I wasn't around much for 2002, stayed mostly on DD's political side. But I think another reason we haven't been blasted by trolls is the sheer level of technical proficiency needed to stay here. My impression is that most Freeper types aren't astrologers, and those that do practice are strictly Sun Sign folks. If you don't know the language, you can't even know where to start to troll around here. And it is, a moderated board, by the way, even if it doesn't do registrations.

A personal note: I have Saturn at 0 Sagittarius conjunct a 29 degree Scorpio Ascendant. The last time I had a Saturn return, it wasn't very noticeable: it only lasted about a week, even with the Ascendant degree involved. I wonder what it will be like next time?

I'm just thrilled about Kerry's intellect. While a lifelong Dean devotee, I'm more than satisfied to see a President Kerry. He would be a relief from all of the fearmongering and stupidity, especially if he hires the best and brightest from Clinton's era and combines them with primary newcomers like Clark.

The Republicans may try to spin this, but I'm not sure that Shrub can get better. Even without the arrogant attitude of entitlement, who knows how much more damaged he is by taking so many prescription pills and the long-term effects of his two (at least) decades of substance abuse. And do we really know if he's quit or not? Nobody would do an intervention on him if he is, and he keeps to himself so much that nobody can really see him or get close to him.

My Kerry Page:

http://d21c.com/aquariusmoon/Kerry.html

Barbara and shylurker, while Bush didn't, to my knowledge, pee his pants, did you get the feeling he might just stick out his tongue at Kerry and say "So there!" That boy needs a trip to the woodshed.

Personal comment: when my first Saturn return occurred, I was going through the necessary adjustments of being newly married. All kinds of new responsibilities were given to me. I was forced to grow up. I had watched the return approach and was fearful of it but I really didn't need to be. I figure it was easier than expected because I am somewhat attuned to Saturn through my Capricorn moon. Pluto is the one that did a number on me.

On my first Saturn return I got a job that I kept
until the next one. However the second Saturn
return was accompanies by Neptune and Uranus in
Capricorn and I lost my job due to new management-
Rupert Murdock took over the company. In the
following couple of years I sold a house in San
Francisco, sold a house in Healdsburg, CA- bought
another one. Had terrible time financially with
someone I tried to help. Within 5 years I learned
to drive, and moved across country to West Virginia and have never looked back or been happier. My Saturn is conjunct Mars at 4 degrees
Capricorn, with Venus and 6 degress Cap and Sun at
13.58 Cap in the 6th house.

Tantrums in the Streets?
We take peaceful elections for granted, but maybe we shouldn't
By David C. Rapoport

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-op-rapoport3oct03,1,402823.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

New Investigation Uncovers More Racism, Voter Intimidation and Faulty
Poll Machines
By Neil Mackay
Published on Sunday, October 3, 2004 by The Sunday Herald (Scotland)
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1003-26.htm

Just so Dave doesn't get the idea that Saturn returns are all rosy (LOL), my ex not only met me (the good side of Saturn) but he also got hit with a paternity suit from a previous girlfriend. AND he's still paying for that. Just rewards -- key words for Saturn.

ok, i'll confess. my first saturn return was excruciating! and deservedly so. at that time, i was a 'project'not a 'keeper' (as recently designated by jo). that personal experience plus the astrology behind the saturn return is why i'm a monomaniac on that subject. bush hasn't done anyone much good and he has done many harm. now it's time to pay the piper. his mask of 'amiable george' is dripping away and we're seeing his true picture (of Dorian Bush, lol). i'm actually looking forward to my next saturn return but the last one...screaming bummer.

now to elevate the discussion, i have a link that many of you have seen, the abc 20/20 show in neal bush. warning, this guy would make jerry springer blush. if you have not seen it, here it is:

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20041002172009990001

p.s. i'd bet some serious kharma that edwards really handles the dickster tomorrow night. edwards is smart, quick, and has the very best of the southern populist tradition behind him.

any takers?

More personal, more Saturn return: My Saturn is in late Aquarius in the 7th. My first return (1964) started out political - made calls for LBJ - and ended up organizational - League of Women Voters. The second return (1993-early 1994) was rough. Really rough - daughter barely speaking to me; daughter divorced; mother broke hip; father died; husband quit breathing on the operating table, was saved by an emergency trache, doctor expected him to be a vegetable (he wasn't); cat died; deeply depressed son moved back home. At least in my chart, outer planets seem to be in orb from the first pass to the last one.

I'm going to have to go middle of the road here---I don't think Edward will embarass himself. I think he'll more than hold his own but Cheney is not the dimwitted Bush. Cheney is ethically challenged but I hear he's a good speaker and debater. Does he even need an earpiece? I think they'll give each a real run for the money.

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/showcase/cl-et-rutten2oct02.column

Regarding Media
Private e-mail is public

.....................

Kerry Accuses GOP of Suppressing Voting
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100504X.shtml

Not sure if this has been posted here before or not, but it's an interesting analysis.

A Classical Analysis of Three Contest Charts for the Presidential Election of 2004 by Jim Shawvan

http://www.jshawvan.homestead.com/election2004.html

I have decided that watching debates is too excruciating for me. Emotional wimp, I yam.
But Cheney has that Neptunian way of roping people in with those "resonable" vibes, while he does extremely unreasonable things in reality. He comes off paternalistic, "father", etc....he makes me feel scammed in the end when I come out of my hypnotized state. And Edwards wasn't a top winning attorney for no reason, either....!

Since I was born with the conjunction of the Sun and Saturn at 16 Gemini (and my granddaughter has it at 4 Gemini), I have Saturn on my Sun at the same time as the return itself. The first one was in 1972, but it really started in 1971 (and I was in the big Feb 71 earthquake in LA, and had a huge Kundalini experience right after that)....a year of really big changes....my daughter's father left me when she was 13 months old...his best friend was killed in a car accident Oct 30, 1970 (one week before his 28th birthday!), and he left me to go live with the widow, whom he had always wanted to be married to (and was until May of 2001 when she died)...I left LA to go live in Phoenix, but before I left, I had a
terrible impacted wisdom tooth which required surgery; then after 6 months on the job in Phx, I got fired 3 weeks after buying a townhouse.

The good news was that I rid myself of everything which was not working for me and found a freelance job I stayed in for the next 7 years.

And as Teresa said, Pluto is much more of a problem for me because it is my ASC ruler. When transiting Pluto hit my 0 Scorpio ascendant (and squared the 0 Leo MC) in 1983 I had a nervous breakdown, got fired from my job after buying a house, and got physically assaulted by my relationship (NPluto conj.N. MC/Venus and Pluto in Leo), requiring legal intervention, turned 40 and my dog died. The good news was that I started my own business and made 5 times more money, continued in therapy and was able to do a lot of things that I would never have been able to do otherwise. But that was also the Uranus opposition kicking in (5 Gemini for me)

However, for everyone, I believe the age of 48 holds more import than even the middlife crisis. That may not hold true for everyone, but I had heard about it....and I definitely support THAT assertion. At 48 I lost everything material but gained much that allows me to participate on this board....or as Jesus said (I think it was Jesus...I am not a Bible scholar, but it is a famous phrase) "what does it profit a man if he gain the world and lose his soul?"

cheney's makeup will start dripping off about 30 minutes into the debate, then the debate will be interrupted by a scene from 'they live,' then cheney's face will be seen in close up...that of a man size lizard with just a few human features. children will scream, adults will become ill, and carl cameron will say the debate was a draw. you can count on it. cheney is a living commercial for ethically challenged intellectual dishonesty!

speaking of haloween, here's the link for "they live" (a great documentary):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/autorank/THEY20LIVE.jpg

(note the hero's quote in the the lower right of the montage...that's rowdie roddy piper, liberator of the earth. kerry will play this role in the re-make)

These varying Saturn return experiences are interesting, aren't they? Just shows how you have to see transits in context with the whole chart--and there is so much to take into consideration.

In my 40s a good astrologer told me, "You like to get into a comfortable rut and stay there." I was somewhat offended and thought, "if you knew how many times I have had to start all over, you wouldn't say that."

Shortly thereafter I realized she was correct, I do like to find a comfortable rut. The problem is that with Uranus in my 12th House in Taurus, square my Aquarius Sun in the 10th, I keep getting dynamited out of the rut just when I've got it comfortably decorated.

My Saturn returns have played out the same pattern. Guess it's all part of this life's lessons.

Correction--make that Aquarius Sun in the 9th.

BTW, been thinking that most posters on this board probably have an occupied 9th House or strongly aspected 9th House ruler. I have both myself.

Look what I just pulled off bartcop, of all places:

Excerpt:
Three powerful bursts of energy from different regions of space could presage spectacular
explosions of huge stars, astronomers just announced The eruptions are likely imminent.

A blast of X-rays was spotted Sept. 12, and another on Sept. 16. Each came from a different
location in the sky and from galaxies far beyond our own. A more powerful eruption was detected
Sept. 24 from yet another spot in the sky. This third flash, importantly, was on the verge between an
X-ray eruption and a more energetic gamma-ray burst, which involves a more powerful form of radiation.

George Ricker of MIT told space.com the stars will likely go supernova 10 to 20 days after the
initial bursts that were spotted. "Each burst has been beautiful," Ricker said. "Depending on how
these evolve, they could support important theories about supernova[s] and gamma-ray bursts."

Sorry, Barbara, I was thinking of Betsy Wetsy. It's been a long time.

Barbara....I agree...dyno-MITE! That's what it took with me....

Also, wanted to share this:
I signed up for the Zogby polls (Zogby.com home page) about 10 days ago, and just got my first poll to complete....when you finish, they allow you to download all the analysis of the earlier polls taken. It is just fascinating! There is a really big schism in the country....and to make a long story short, it appears to me that 1) Repugs & Bush supporters think the danger comes from OUTSIDE the country (terrorists), and that hard work and morality are their watchwords.

2) Dems & Kerry supporters believe the danger comes from WITHIN (civil rights) the country and that religion and morality should have nothing to do with politics

3) the Undecideds can't decide about either! The good news, is they will vote for the most part anyway!

One other thing...it appears that the Swift Boat debacle has boomeranged..it has HURT Bush! Especially with the undecideds, but also with the Bush supporters!

Hopefully, Sally's story of her friend having the veils ripped from her eyes during the debate will also have the same effect on others. Oh...and only 3% of those polled Bush supporters have seen Farenheit 9/11...

Barbara, you're right about the Ninth House. I have Uranus and Pluto in Leo in the Ninth along with Venus in Virgo. I have the Sun, it's ruler, conjunct Neptune (widely) sextile Pluto.

My 48th birthday is in two weeks, should I dread it, or enjoy it?

Thoughts about Kerry, maybe it is karmic. He's a former foe of that whole neo-conartistry that manifested itself for all these 30 years. First Nixon, then Iran-Contra, now this mess. He opposed one fake war, and is being called to end another. He is a bridge and a wall for our future.

Great report, judy gemini!!

Barbara, I have Saturn in Sag in the 9th.

I'm curious to hear of anyone's experiences with sadi sati - that's when Saturn goes through the house before your moon, the house your moon is in, and then the house after your moon.

I have Cancer moon on the cusp of 10th & 11th houses, technically in 11th, and Saturn is right on it now. I was expecting something unbearable, but so far, it's been mostly good things! One revelation about my mother's mental illness, but that has, in the long run, been very liberating. Saturn goes retro and then back again, so I have 2 more passes after this current one (gulp) but as I always try to stay optomistic, I'll hope it'll be OK.

Sorry for personal stuff, but I'd really be grateful for anyone's stories of Saturn conjunct Moon and related times...

Thank you. And...

Kerry's gonna win.

: )

thanks for a great article!
Mimi

PLEASE read....it's an eye-opener

Itwould help to add the link...sorry

http://207.44.245.159/article6997.htm

How interesting! I also have a Mars/Pluto conjunction on the cusp of the 9th and Mercury and Venus Rx in the 9th. Wow.

My obsessions are astrology and politics!!

Come on! Bush did not have an earpiece...

Cheney was under the lectern.

To All: "Unconventional Wisdom" (WGN-Chicago) air about 15 minutes discussion with the experts last night on the Cheney/Edwards debate for Tuesday. I listened with my ears glued. John Edwards biggest challenge will be when Cheney asks him how he feels he is qualified to be Vice-President with no foriegn policy experiece to his credit. This is a weakness but I think with his experience as a trial lawyer, he will be able to present a convincing case.

Dick Cheney is a good speaker, per the experts, however he does not have the debating experience to back him up. It has been a long time since he has done any campaign debating for himself. He may experience some discomfort when John Edwards calls him on credibility issues. Edwards will rattle them off one by one, convincingly and forcefully for us to hear.

I think Edwards will come out the winner due to his composure and all the preparation I have heard he has done. I can't wait to hear them.

Things may look very difficult for GWB but let's remember too, the the subject of the second and third debates will be domestic issues, his weakest vulnerablities.

Excellent overview of the debates and political strategies:

http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/article.php?id=LJS2004100401

Condi is still lying!

http://www.misleader.org/daily_mislead/Read.asp?fn=df10042004.html

I think the single most important factor in the debates (aside from having the truth on their side) is the fact that both Kerry and Edwards have had trial experience. The training and preparation lawyers receive to be able to present, argue and summarize a case is invaluable in the debate format. Neither dimson or Cheney have had that experience.

Cheney's very calm and always appears unflappable, but he has a way of expressing his opinion as if he's talking to the slowest 4-year old in nursery school. Really talks down to people. I don't think he's that well liked by the public. He won't hurt dimson but he won't help him much either.

Lucy,
For my current sadi sati (moon 16, uranus 9 cancer) first pass I was numb/paralyzed from the arm pits down (allergic to prescription thyroid, lactose intolerance through the roof, peri-menapause, oh and neck bone spurs poking my spinal cord (loss of limb control)), three passes later..I am nearly fully recovered. Totally changed my diet, discovered eastern medicine (or why I got better and western medicine can't figure it out), and eat fish instead of meat now, discovered chocolate silk milk (soy), and goat cheese.
Speaking for a Saturn in Libra 19, my first Saturn return I unplugged my phone for several days when I turned thirty. Went back to my root spirituality and stopped trying to fit into the Orange County rightwingnut mindset (born and raised in Repub. country). Became what I am today. I have a friend who has coasted through sadi sati born on the same day, twelve hours apart.

Lucy, my Saturn experience: Since Saturn has been in Cancer, most especially when it was directly hitting me (last July), my Mom got sicker and my responsibility just seemed relentless. Finally with Saturn still in Cancer, my Mom died nearly two months ago. There has been little joy in my life since Saturn has been in Cancer. I hate Saturn.

Barbara,

My 9th house is ruled by Taurus (Venus - which is in mutual reception with my moon). Jupiter sits on the cusp and Saturn and Uranus are within. Uranus trines my Neptune.

Keen insight you have, as to 9th house activity for posters! Kudos to you!

Lucy, I have never looked at sadi sati in my chart... thank you for bringing it up and for explaining it... I checked and I was very young the first pass, before adolescence... the 2nd time? Well, that was a duzy! The beginning of the period saw the end of my stint in political office, and return of focus to home and rearing of an adopted child; When tSaturn conjuncted nMoon I had just enrolled in law school at Baylor University having fled an abusive husband with a six year old in tow. By the time the sadi sati period was over I was working for a law firm in Houston (I didn't finish law school though, but returned East.) The next sadi sati begins the end of next year. As for my first saturn return - it was joyous... and exciting. The 2nd one found me caring for my Mother who had cancer and died two year later. Saturn just finished passing over my stellium in Cancer and that was not an easy time, but a great deal of self-revelation came. This is sorta how I see future obstacles or tests that the chart indicates: it's much like what I learned in my hospice work... do the best you can every day to take responsibility for your part in your relationships, and maintain currency with those who are living --- that is, do the 'closure' now, so that you don't have to do it in a hurry when the time comes for one of you to leave --- that's really all one can do, right? Don't expect the 'unbearable' --- my experience has been that there never is more than we can bear. My Mom always said it was a good thing she didn't know what was on her plate before she got it, otherwise, she would have passed! The secret for her was in the 'not knowing' and in that way, it was bearable.

My Saturn in Cancer preceeds my Moon in Leo, so this is what has happened: my mom got sicker and sicker, with dementia, until on June 22 she developed, overnight, pneumonia...went into the hospital and is now in a nursing home. A complete staff to take care of her instead of me and one county aid who came for a couple of hours. But I also have 9th house Jupiter in 15 Cancer , and Saturn was mitigated, I believe, by this.

One of the things I was taught about the Ninth house is this: The sign on the cusp of the ninth house and the ruler of that sign, plus the planets located in the ninth house, are your spiritual guidance. Mine happens to be Jupiter AND Mercury, as Gemini is the cusp ruler and Jupiter in Cancer is located in the house. (Cancer is intercepted in the ninth, too (Cap in 3rd) which gives an added boost.) But I have also had a huge drop off in income and work ...but an uncle is helping me out. If one wants to meditate on astrology, use the symbols of the ninth house to focus...

Saturn is not a BAD planet...it is also the planet of "grace"....focus....and cleaning house, so looks like Jo must be Saturn ruled, right JO?

The 48-49 year is a Saturn square year...I think the only time it is awful is when you get blindsided by all that really needs to change, or when (like me) you are not heeding all the messages to DO SOMETHING about the problems. I do think, however, that Saturn people might be more prone to fear and negativity ( or maybe reality is a better term) than others.

Please go vote:

http://www.gallup.com/election2004/involved/survey/results.asp

Is Faux News biased or f&b? Go vote.

http://www.nynewsday.com/other/special/amny

By Holden at First Draft:

On Friday I decided it was long past time for me to get a Kerry yard sign. So I called our local Kerry-Edwards campaign office here in beautiful Austin, Texas, and asked about yard signs. "We've got plenty," I was told, "come on down and get one."

Arriving there at 11 this morning, I waited in line for a few minutes before I could get to the harried receptionist.

"We're out, demand has been incredible. In fact, there are no yard signs available in the entire county. Do you want to put your name and number on our waiting list? We hope to have more by the end of the week."

I was happy to do just that, and squeezed my name onto a sheet of typing paper. I turned around and the lady behind me said, "I want to get on that list, too."

Granted, Austin is easily the most liberal city in Texas. But there must be something to the fact that in the capital of the preznit's adopted home state demand for Kerry yard signs outpaces supply. I'm ordering one online just in case.

http://shop1.kerrygear.com/Merchant2/merchant_mvc_screen_prod_product_code_k905_category_code_signs.htm

I don't know if somebody else has posted this but isn't it great??

"We're out, demand has been incredible. In fact, there are no yard signs available in the entire county." - How cool!

Shylurker: this question
Who do you trust more to handle the responsibilities of commander-in-chief of the military - [ROTATED: John Kerry, (or) George W. Bush]?
gave B** a 50% to Kerry's 45% ....
what idiots.....what idiots, what idiots....and did I say....what idiots?

Shylurker, couldn't get to the vote Faux news link...so I went back to Yahoo...looks like Janet Leigh (July 6 1927) and "Gordo" Gordon Cooper (March 6, 1927) have both passed away a day apart.

I saw Janet Leigh's dates and the July 6 connection to Bush....is it getting closer?

Abilene,
I just contacted our Democratic Headquarters for Santa Cruz and they too are all out of yard signs. A new supply due in Friday. Now that's a suprise since this area is heavily Democrat I would think most wouldn't put up a sign. So we're loading up with Kerry/Edwards and also the other local and state candidates. Since some of our raises are non-partisan and party affiliation obvious so will associate the other candidates with our President Kerry and Edwards signs.

Shylurker, I sent the solar flare story to my astrologer friend in LA who follows all that stuff intensely...she wrote back:
Yes, I did read about it. But I read so much about this type of thing and so late at night I don't know where or when. We have this type of thing going on many times. It's just that now we hear about it more. The Sun has released several strange and extraordinary flares. Also the Sun....has put up a helium shield recently. It encompasses our total solar system. It is not there all the time. Just now. Judi...I think for the first time in Mankind's history we are going to really find out about all we don't know about. Not the answers. Just that we don't even know the questions. It's a powerful time.

Some of our races are non-partisan and party affiliation is not obvious ...

Gads fat fingers...sorry.

A friend from Seattle said they were selling lots of stuff over the weekend - I sent him the Austin yard sign shortage...:
COOL! WE SOLD KERRY STUFF AT GREENLAKE SUNDAY AFTERNOON. VERY BUSY!! VERY!!!

I've been out of the astrological loop so long I'd never heard of sadi sati. Because I have Sun, Moon and Saturn all in Aquarius (North Node at 1, Moon at 3 and Sun at 13 in the 6th, Saturn at 28 in the 7th, conjunct Mercury & Venus both at 1 Pisces), my s-s coincided with my Saturn return. The first time around I was a bride, had babies, moved across the country; in the middle of it, with Saturn in the sixth, I had a near nervous breakdown, terrified I was going to be raped & murdered. I've always attributed the breakdown to Neptune transiting the I.C., never considered Saturn; looking closer, I see that it started - and ended nine months later - each time on the exact Saturn square to my 12th house Pluto. How could I have missed it - my panic was pure Saturn-Pluto. When Saturn moved out of s-s, into the eighth (Placidus cusps) life opened up for me. Saturn has been transiting my Pluto (24 Cancer) this week - and will come back twice. No wonder I just realized the Saturn-Pluto influence in my breakdown.

The beginning of the second s-s is connected to the first one. When Saturn hit my fifth cusp (again Placidus), our daughter was raped. I woke up that morning - probably at the very moment - with the thought that I was 26 when I had my breakdown and now she was 26. BTW, tPluto was on my I.C. and my husband's 5th, and we all had horrendous progressions all over the place. (For anyone interested in relocation charts, my relocation ascendant during my breakdown was exactly the same as her relocation asc when she was raped. The two events have to be connected. She was eight months old when my panic started. We have conjunct Moons.)

I'm another 9th houser - have Uranus in late Aries in the 9th, in a t-square with Mars in Libra in the 3rd and Pluto in Cancer in the 12th. Mars rules the 9th and Pluto is within ONE MINUTE of the Mars-Uranus midpoint - I don't have the easiest chart in the easiest chart in the world, but at almost 70 it's still teaching me.

My empty 9th house is cusped by Virgo, ruled by a mercury in Aries from the 4th house. Explains why I could never be a professional astrologer. I am always quagmired by the details, but I love the exploration....

Anyhow, there are some good October articles over at Maya Del Mars' site.

http://www.daykeeperjournal.com/alex.shtml

http://www.daykeeperjournal.com/feature.shtml

From the previous article, thanx Judi Gemini for the Fitts link, what a powerful story. And Jo, I am not sure where to go with the karma question. I'm not thinking too well right now. Would just like to see the end of BFEE and any other patterns of the same.

Laurie - Regarding the Kennth Browser article, I agree that the faltering economy will be at least part of the picture in the defeat of Bush. The difficult aspect that Kerry has in January is the opposition of Pluto to his natal Saturn. I have interpreted it as him tackling the very difficult mess left by Bush, with no easy solution found. It is interesting that Saturn rules Kerry's secondhouse, so the Pluto transit could indeed have to do with a dismal econmic picture, the true extent of which (Pluto) is yet to be revealed. Browser doesn't say what aspects he is using to make his interpretations.

Air Powered Car
http://positivenews.org.uk/cgi/zyview.pl/D=articles/V=story/R=1253
The first air powered cars will be rolling off the production lines in France later this year. Other countries including Spain, Italy, Portugal, Switzerland, Australia, South Africa and Mexico are hoping to start making the cars in 2005. (...) Since the air car was presented in Spain in 2001, the technology and the concept have improved considerably. The engine is now driven only by compressed air obtained from cylinders installed in the vehicle. Improvements made to the 25 horsepower engine mean that the car will run for up to 200 km. It will also travel at 110 km per hour on motorways and recharge will take only take three to four minutes at service stations that supply compressed air. Negotiations are under way to ensure that existing service stations will provide this service. CLIP

I love hearing the Saturn return stories. Mine went pretty smooth.

I have a ninth house venus in aquarius with a (wide) opposition to my third house uranus in leo. I also have an exact square to my fifth house neptune in scorpio.

Saturn has passed my second house moon in cancer. In the last year, I have finished my basement, added a deck, put a on a new roof and just finished painting and carpeting my upstairs. Last week I received a $1,000 gift certificate to a local furniture store from a friend.

I've been liking Saturn lately.

I also have tvenus almost exact on my fourth house pluto in virgo.

Shade, I've really wanted to encourage people to read Catherine Fitts work...http://www.solari.com and then look at the enormous amount of articles she has written. It is eyepopping. What a chart she must have.
A good handy primer on how government scamming and finances work...

Great analysis Nancy. I am wondering however if the debate might be a little more complicated than first look. Cheney has two potential yods, Moon sextile Venus, with Edwards Pluto setting up the yod in Cheney's chart. The other yod is the VP Moon also sextiles his Uranus and Edwards Saturn/Neptune sets that yod up, with Edwards progressed Moon at 21 Aries setting off the yod tomorrow night. In the debate chart itself there is fated yod with a very interesting play. Uranus sextiling the North Node both inconjunct by Jupiter. Jupiter rules Edwards mid-heaven and Cheney's natal North Node is conjunct the Jupiter.

Cheney's progressed Moon will conjunct the US Sun and John Edwards Asc.both squared by the Sun and Mercury in the debate chart and the debate Moon conjuncting from the 12th house.

Venus and Uranus in the debate chart fills out another yod for Cheney between his Pluto/North Node sextile. Venus in the debate chart is in opposition to the Moon in the 2000 election chart (7:00pm Washington) with the 2000 Progressed Moon conjunct Edwards progressed Moon and filling out Cheney's Moon/Uranus yod.

For good or for ill this is, I think, a very fated debate for Cheney and the debate and Edwards will be the catalyst. Will this be Chaney's last hurrah with the October Surprise naming a new VP? Saturn is moving toward a conjunction to Cheney's Chiron and his Anti-Vertex, with Chiron conjucting his Venus on Election Day. It's a very complicated set up for Cheney.

Edwards has his own Yod set off by Dick Cheney, but he only has one. His Pluto sextile Saturn and Neptune from Leo to Libra and the Veep's Moon inconjuncts them. The composite charts between Edwards/Debate and Cheney/Debate are equally complicated.

I think there is a chance that Edwards Saturn/Neptune apex to Dick's Moon/Uranus Sextile and Edwards Progressed Moon and the Square from Dick's Venus and the debate Midheaven setting it all off might trip Dick into saying something he doesn't intend to say, I just don't know what the ramifications will for the American people, or how it will be taken. Nevertheless Astroworld folks, listen carefully with an open mind.

Sally - I think you hit on the one potential pitfall for Cheney. He could say something Uranian - unexpected and counter to what is acceptable. His Uranus transit is very strong right now, and Venus can be seen as its trigger as well as a transit to the Ascendant in its own right.

I have sun, mars, pluto and Pars Fortune in the 9th. Love politics and used to really care about religion...but I've drifted from religion. Love foreign travel and mystery, intrigue. Texan that I was born - I've never been at home here, but anywhere offshore I'm interested.

I had a very strong feeling tonight that Kerry will be the next President. Many things add to that, but it feels so.

http://tinyurl.com/5o92k

Oh this is so ironic.

...............

http://www.globalwomensgathering.org/speakers.html

The healers

Something comes from this Nancy, Cheney is really loaded up right now, because of that whatever he does or says is going to have some kind of big impact. What do you think about his health with the Chiron to his Venus and Saturn to his Chiron? I keep looking at the 2000 Election of Nov. 5, progressions, particularly Mercury because of the retrograde factor. Geneva said with Uranus retrograde in the 10th that would mean a return to the status quo, and she thought that to mean a Bush re-election, but I think it could mean a return of an election stolen and the status quo of 8 years ago. Look at the 7:00pm chart of 2000 and the 7 pm chart of 2004.

Susan, from your lips to God's ears.

PatC, that article about Norway laying claim to the North Pole is just priceless. Can you imagine the wake up call that sends to the White House.

Sally - I've always understood the yod as being the finger of God pointing in a (fated) changed direction. As if being told you will go here, or learn this now. Is this correct? If so, wouldn't this heavily influence the Dick in the debate? Meaning that for all his discipline he wouldn't be able to stop himself. Could this play into what you are suggesting the October surprise will be? A surprise for him as well as everyone else. A stab in the back from his partner in crime, and his partner's pet dog Rover?

Sally and Nancy, I may be wrong, but I think Cheney will set off the culture revolution in this country.

I am so grateful for the best astrology I have ever seen, anywhere. You have saved me from dispair. Astrology always shows the remedy to the problem, and being reminded of that, has been priceless for me.

Sally, the irony is that the US, at this point will get little sympathy from anyone. I'll bet the White House never considered them as a threat.

You crack me up M. Stab from Rover? too funny. Yes you are correct about the yod, but how will that play out for us. Nancy made a very good case for the debate coming out in Dick's favor and I agreed with her assessment, but I think the potential exists that Cheney says something that might sink him with the administration or the American people. But for sure with a yod the "fate" of a person or situation is turned.

I've been lurking here for quite a while, but I'm quite active on the JohnKerry.com forum. Here's a link to print out a Kerry yard sign...haven't used it myself, because I'm an apartment-dweller, but I've visited the site and there are signs for every flavor of Kerry supporter. Enjoy!

http://kerry-wi.com/signs.htm

aq_rising: Great site, really great site. Welcome and thank you for such a valuable find.

Sally, thank you. It's not wishful thinking, but a true feel. I've had it before. When Clinton won. But he didn't win - we did. He brought Newt Gingrich to a halt. Clinton was skewered subsequently. I don't think Kerry will win so much as we stop the neocon takeover anew. After that, I think so many global political issues will intervene that we will be focused on those things and won't care about tax cuts, etc..... ....

Thanks, Sally. Love the astrology here - I found you all by accident looking for political astrology, and never dreamed I'd also find Kerry supporters as well.

FYI, if anyone does visit the Kerry forum, my handle there is chi_girl_88. If anyone is ever feeling discouraged, or elated (somehow I suspect it'll be the latter from now on...), about the election, you will undoubtedly find many sympathizers.

It'll be a great place to celebrate on Nov 2nd, around 10:30-ish Eastern time. That's my prediction! Saturn, do your thing on the Shrub!

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20041003/mdf716490.jpg

http://tinyurl.com/3jnsj

Wow! It seems that I have drummed up a whole lot of attention today, both on this board and in my life today. I had dozens of significant and unexpected "visitors" in my life today, culminating in the arrival of my parents to visit me on the campaign trail. Thanks for all of your advice on the Saturn return issues. Being young, and having never experienced a Saturn return before, I have some degree of apprehension in light of some of my life's volatility in the past. I hope that my actions will lead me to reap positive karma and to work hard toward accomplishing my goals. I'm a very flippant person at times, being the Aquarian that I am, but sometimes life necessitates a certain degree of seriousness. Our country is in such a place now. I hope that in the years to come, both I and my country will rise to the challenge.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20041004/i/r1511838056.jpg

Sally I am so excited after reading your astrology in the yod post, I am heading out tomorrow for some snacks and refreshments for the debate. I want to see Edwards shine and Cheney talk out of the side of his mouth.

Are you going to address the eclipses?

Thanks ever so much for pointing out the yods and chart dynamics for Edwards and Snarly, Sally. Very interesting. You did state something to the effect that Snarly might say something he shouldn't. I'm trying to figure out if that means he'll tell the truth (which I don't think is within his realm of possibility) or if he'll state (with prodding from Edwards) something so outrageous that few will be able to ignore. Well, this time tomorrow we will know.

Hope you had a very enjoyable weekend. We consumed lots and lots of "Comments" space while you were gone. Many thanks for the many things you do for us.

One would wonder if I can even call myself a mundane astrologer. After a couple of days looking at these VP debate charts and Edwards annnnd Cheney, plotting the yods, looking at the complications I forgot the one extremely important aspect, the Oct. 13, 10:48pm Washington, DC. Eclipse with the Sun and Moon at 21 degrees Libra, conjuncting Edwards Saturn/Neptune sextiling his Pluto, setting off Cheney's Moon/Uranus by forming an apex to the sextile of those two planets. It squares Cheney's Venus, squares transiting Chiron, squares the mid-heaven of the debate chart. Mercury in the eclipse chart squares the Veep's Chiron.
The Asc. of the eclipse chart conjuncts Edwards Mercury and sextiles Cheney's Jupiter/Saturn conjunction.

Oh do watch this debate, my next article will be on the two eclipses we will have this month and how they will relate to the election but tomorrow's debate will be worth watching.

The Sabian symbol for 21 Libra would be (you would read the symbol as 21 because the minutes of the eclipse are at 6 and have not passed the half way mark) "A revivifying contact with the Mother-force of nature and of social togetherness." This symbol affects the collective unconscious.

Pass the popcorn

Sally said: "Eclipse with the Sun and Moon at 21 degrees Libra, conjuncting Edwards Saturn/Neptune sextiling his Pluto, setting off Cheney's Moon/Uranus by forming an apex to the sextile of those two planets."

OK Sally, now I'm real curious. I'm trying to show my mentor/best friend from college (who is back in my live in a fun way) how smart I am. I'll cheat with astrology. Does this mean that Edwards draws him into a higly emotional moment through some provocation/deception resulting in Cheney blowing the whole thing?

There is nothing 'mundane' about this astrology!

Great article. Somehow I think Edwards' unaspected Mars may surprise us all. It is aspected only by Vesta (rules CIA, secret service, etc. as well as keeper of the hearth)which it trines. Furthermore, he is Gemini. Has anybody ever experienced the Gemini dark twin. My older sister, a lovely woman until crossed, is a Gemini. I have had considerable experience battling this aspect of Gemini, and I think it is formidable. Edwards' Mars squares Cheney's natal Neptune in Virgo which is ruled by Mercury. His Sun opposes Cheney's Mars, Ceres conjunction. I will be interested to see if Edwards can put Cheney on the defensive, the way Kerry put Bush. He may attack him quite successfully on Oil, the industry, Haliburton, etc.

I just found a browser I can use, at last....it seems to be the number one pick for Macs except for the new Safari for OSX ...which I don't have. This one is called iCab.
Thanks for the Kerry banner info, AQ rising....hopefully some of this info here will get to the Kerry forum....!

Beasley, you crack me up....my evil twin is formiddable, but rarely appears...but when she does...watch out!

So if Edwards has an unaspected Mars, then that is his most important planet....this ought to be interesting, well now that I have all this info from Sally et al, I think I may unwhimp myself and watch the debate...! Mike, you continue to be so funny....

'Darth Vader' next to Johnny Appleseed...

loved that comparison, Jo. Thanks.

=)

As I am writing this two amazing things have just been reported:

1/Rumsfeld was quoted (it is on video somewhere in a speech he gave) that he never saw any real link between Saddam and Al Qaeda.

2/ Washington Post reported Bremer (remember him?) as saying we made two really big mistakes; not having enough troops from day one to secure the peace and not doing enough to stop the early looting, thereby setting up an atmosphere of lawlessness early on. I hope Edwards uses these two explosive pieces of information tonight!

I believe that a yod is a relationship among three planets where two are sextile (60 degrees) and both are inconjunct (150 degrees) from a third plants. A Finger of God is when the Yod has a fourth planet that is opposed to the hinge planet and 30 degrees from the other two.

To Mike and Beasley:

Mike, the energy is so complicated it's hard to even sort it all out. Like Nancy said Cheney has a couple of Venus aspects that could put him in the "grandfather" form, with Edwards (and his Saturn) in danger of pushing him too hard however the eclipse will trine Edwards Pluto (setting off another of Cheney's sextiles) and I will say that the power of this debate will go to Edwards, not noticable at the debate but with Cheney saying something that turns out to be a real issue for him by the 13/14 of Oct. Cheney just says something that blows up in his face. The pundits declare it a draw with a slight edge to Cheney and then it falls apart for Cheney because of something he says or does. Cheney will be taken off guard by Edwards information and knowledge, he will be blindsided by something, and ultimately defensive and angry, but it turns slowly.

Cheney does not consider Edwards a peer, there won't be the easy give and take he enjoyed with Liberman, Cheney considers Edwards a "kid" at the end of the debate Edwards will have shown himself to shockingly be the winner. I think that's what will happen, Edwards makes points with the people.

Beasley, you are so right about Gemini's. Some of my best friends are Gemini's but there is a dark side. You astro information is excellent.

Sally,
Maybe Cheney will get angry and swear at Edwards like he did awhile back in Congress. Love to see how that would go over on TV.

Lucy,
Thanks for that interesting info on the Sadi-sati. Mine covered tSaturn running through my 12th, 1st, and 2nd houses and involves my natal Venus in Aries. It also explained a big chunk of my emotional life. My first s-s was at 11+ when the first slight sign of puberty arrived. I was so depressed because I knew I wouldn't be allowed to be a kid anymore. Puberty was years of disappointment about my body's changes. Father left home. Bummer years of low self-esteem.
The second occured during my late 30s after I had moved to Houston. I was finally on my own and got to joyously expand my spiritual horizons. Managed to grow emotionally thanks to many coincidences and friends leading me to just the right place or event to experience. During this time period my view of myself as a female improved a lot.

Too tired, it was me in the above post, going to bed now.
Sweet dreams all.

Jill

This is just so hilarious!!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/04/173.html

re: George Bush's communication thing
Don't forget his Merc in Leo in the first near Pluto...With his delusional self, I think he considers himself a great orator... he sure spits his words out with a lot of force.

Barbara.... I have Moon conjunct Jupiter in Sagittarius in the ninth.

There seems to be a lot of Cancer here, too.

I have Saturn in Leo in a grand fire trine...
When Saturn first returned I made big career strides, albeit with struggle and difficulty...and was written up in the local paper. Wonder what will happen when the second one comes up.

Janet... maybe joy will come when Saturn goes into Leo... not too far away... and maybe experiencing death on a Saturn transit helps one face the sorrow right off the bat and come to grips with it. On my last heavy Saturn transit I went down into my dark, scary, unfinished basement ... did some deep thinking and feeling...got into a 5 gallon bucket of white paint when I felt ready... and finished the basement myself... It took two years and now it is the brightest spot in the house.

I think Geminis are underestimated. Mercury was the only god regularly allowed to go into the underworld and return.

Miss Sally posted: "The Sabian symbol for 21 Libra would be (you would read the symbol as 21 because the minutes of the eclipse are at 6 and have not passed the half way mark) "A revivifying contact with the Mother-force of nature and of social togetherness." This symbol affects the collective unconscious."

The Fixed Star SPICA is at 21 Libra... for Riches and Peace. Spica is is traditionally considered the most benefic fixed star.

don't forget to wrap Edwards with lots of light...blue, white, purple.
GO Humans!

My dear cousin who is a second grade teacher and my friend just revealed to me her innner thoughts about the election and she is a Freeper! We got inot a very heated discussion. My cousin refuses to get on the subway since 911 and is convinced terrorists are coming. She was so upset when asking me if i 'love' Israel because we are Jewish and I said we need to be grassroots and America comes first to me. That the Evangelistas need Israel for it's strategic moves towards the Rapture. The Konservative Khristian Konservatives are just that . She listens to Ins(Hannity) and FUX news. No wonder. She was pissed when we got off the phone, I swirled in disbelief and worry that she is brainwashed. Alot of women in my family are just the same.
How do lefty Jews from the Bronx become so brainwashed to become * believers? * is so pathetically transparent and phony. And dumb.
I believe she wants a Big Daddy as fear rules her life.

This is from a very nice person who posts on Salon. Anybody have thoughts?

"I'm going to hijack this thread for a personal whining, angsting, asking for advice thread.

My contract was terminated yesterday, without warning. In retrospect I should have seen it coming, but yesterday when it happened I was blindsided. My backup job, the one I always said, "well, if anything happens they'll always take me back", is not hiring.

Looking at my chart, which I do all too seldom, again I should have seen something coming. Saturn is transiting opposite my progressed Sun, conjunct my progressed Moon. I was born 12/8/64, Cambridge Massachusetts at 1:43 PM. So my progressed Sun is in the 10th house, the house of career, while Saturn lurks in the 4th house.

My husband and I have talked about downsizing our house, moving to something smaller. Right now that sounds like a blessed relief rather than a burden - I think that's the right course.

But I'm also in a position, if we do that, to think about changing careers and priorities. Any ideas on where I should put my career goal energies?"

The Pope is visiting Washington, DC and Senator John F. Kerry takes him out
for an afternoon on the Potomac, sailing on the Heinz family yacht.

They're admiring the sights when, all of a sudden, the Pope's zucchetto
(hat) blows off his head and out into the water. Secret service guys start
to launch a boat, but Sen. Kerry waves them off, saying, "Wait, wait - I'll
take care of this. Don't worry."

Kerry then steps off the yacht onto the surface of the water, and walks out
to the Holy Father's hat, bends over and picks it up, then walks back to the
yacht and climbs aboard. He hands the hat to the Pope amid stunned silence.

The next morning, the headlines in The Wall Street Journal, Washington
Times, National Review, Orange County Register and the Fox News Network
proclaim "Kerry Can't Swim!"

The Guardian on kos...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/markosmoulitsas/story/0,15139,1320053,00.html

LOL x 10, wv. Where do you get these things?

Letters to Michael Moore from servicemen in
Iraq - a new book...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5031571-103550,00.html

Senate may be more diverse after election...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4535690,00.html

grizzly's post on bremmer's criticism of the iraq effort is HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT.

a person like bremmer doesn't jump ship unless it's about to sink. he is the ultimate insider, don't rock the boat type. in this case, he may have some special knowledge. i usually don't put credence in my own suspicions like this, i.e., that if bremmer is jumping, the ship must be going down. in this case, however, given who bremmer is and what he did/knows, i think this is worth watching.

i like sally's elaboration of 'the stars' tonight. i also like the 'dark twin' of gemeni. i have some personal experience with that and that dark twin gave my magesterial leo a real scare back in the '70's. never forgot it. get ready for a cheney meltdown.

Moragan, Janet, Abilene, Susan, Dave and Jill! Thanks for sharing your stories of your Saturn experiences. It helps so much to hear of people having gone through things and come out the other end not only OK, but better. I have a deep sense that this is all about my mother, the past emotional abuse, the revelation of her illness, and now perhaps she will get sick and I'll be forced to deal with her in spite of all the history and pain. She turns 80 this year. When I think about it, I get a planet-sized knot in my stomach, and that screams Saturn, so... here we go, I guess. My thanks to all who responded - it helped!

Pat C, I also have my Sun in 10th house and I am also contemplating a wholesale change in career (graphic designer now)... sick of the creative aspects of design being hammered by left-brained computer stuff - UCK.

Anyway, sorry to be personal, but it does help to connect. This board is always rapid-fire, but I have these visions of my monitor starting to shake and smoke over the next 4 weeks! WOW! We are watching the rescue of our country.

Peace.

Sorry, Morgana. I have fat fingers today, too. ; )

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/bookman/index.html

Bush fans disappointed...

I remember lots of things about Bremer: 1) he's a Neocon; 2)he disbanded the Iraqi Army immediately upon entering Baghdad, and some critics would later look back on that decision as one of the worst mistakes made by the administration, while other critics would say it was terrible, but intentional: one of the devices used to create instability, which was part of the Neocon agenda, but which evolved to such a degree there was no controlling it (which is where we have been for some time); and 3) Bremer left Baghdad in a real hurry at the very time questions were arising about the missing $1B plus... some mention was made of that at June 30, but soon died down (as all questions about the doings of this misadministration eventually do!)

I've read all your comments about the ups/downs of Saturn returns with such amazement and interest! Having been adopted as a baby I have no idea of my birth time, only a date and place. Is it possible to find out about my own saturn returns if I don't have an exact birthtime? Also, I have two sisters (triplets) and we were born Scorpios within 10 min of each other ... we are each so different in a lot of ways, alike in many other more psychic ways and have had different lives and have gone through serious life changes at different times as well. I would think that being born so close to each other in time that we would experience any Saturn return difficulties at the same time? Can an accurate chart be done if you don't know your birth time?? We also share very different political views - the sister that I get along with the least is a republican and we can't talk any political things or the Scorpio thing starts to manifest itself (smile).. sort of like the evil Gemini twin side with an Exorcist slant.

Siobhan, not having a birth time only affects the house position of Saturn and it's relation to the moon. Saturn moves slowly enough that it's easy to determine a Saturn return. The areas of your life affected by it can also help with chart rectification which is trying to narrow down a birth time.

As for your sisters, a few minutes on either side can affect the ascendant as well as house positions of the other planets which would explain differences between triplets.

My asc and sun rulers are both in Scorpio but people are thrown off by my cooperative Libra planets. Getting even is definitely possible if I'm angry enough. For instance, I sent my ex's new wife, the one he left for, a complete set of my wedding pictures as well as the little nightie he gave me for our wedding night. I also signed him up for every state's travel brochures. I should be ashamed of myself but I felt much better afterwards.

Has anyone heard anything about a vote on draft (as in military) legislation this afternoon.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

Thankyou planets in Libra!

Brokaw, Jennings Show Support for Rather
Sat Oct 2, 6:47 PM ET
By DEEPTI HAJELA, Associated Press Writer

NEW YORK - While acknowledging mistakes in CBS anchor Dan Rather's "60 Minutes" report that questioned President Bush (news - web sites)'s service in the National Guard, competing news anchors Tom Brokaw and Peter Jennings offered support Saturday for the beleaguered newsman.

Brokaw blasted what he called an attempt to "demonize" CBS and Rather on the Internet, where complaints about the report first surfaced. He said the criticism "goes well beyond any factual information."

"What I think is highly inappropriate is what going on across the Internet, a kind of political jihad ... that is quite outrageous," the NBC anchor said at a panel on which all three men spoke.

Rather declined to comment, saying news executives had asked him not to talk about the report while an investigation was under way.

The Guard story, aired on Sept. 8, was discredited because it relied on documents impugning Bush's service that apparently were fake.

"I don't think you ever judge a man by only one event in his career," said Jennings, anchor on ABC.

The panel, part of The New Yorker Festival, was one of the last times all three anchors were expected to appear together in their current roles. Brokaw is stepping down Dec. 1.

Neither Jennings nor Rather have said when they will leave.

The three broadcasters, who have all anchored their networks for at least two decades, also discussed the run-up to war in Iraq (news - web sites).

Rather said he did not ask enough questions before the war or conduct enough follow-up reporting.

"If the country is in dire peril, as the president of the United States says it is ... I want to be a patriotic journalist," he said.

"You know that the role of the patriotic journalist is to put your fear aside, stand up, look them in the eye, ask the rough questions. But you also know that when you do that, you're going to get hammered..." Rather said. "So what happens is you just say ... maybe tomorrow."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041002/ap_on_en_tv/rather_anchors

Interesting article on why the GOP is falling apart:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0410.wallace-wells.html

A bit of the Bremer statements:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7053-2004Oct4.html

snip--

Ambassador L. Paul Bremer, administrator for the U.S.-led occupation government until the handover of political power on June 28, said he still supports the decision to intervene in Iraq but said a lack of adequate forces hampered the occupation and efforts to end the looting early on.

"We paid a big price for not stopping it because it established an atmosphere of lawlessness," he said yesterday in a speech at an insurance conference in White Sulphur Springs, W.Va. "We never had enough troops on the ground."

Bremer's comments were striking because they echoed contentions of many administration critics, including Democratic presidential nominee John F. Kerry, who argue that the U.S. government failed to plan adequately to maintain security in Iraq after the invasion. Bremer has generally defended the U.S. approach in Iraq but in recent weeks has begun to criticize the administration for tactical and policy shortfalls.

In a Sept. 17 speech at DePauw University, Bremer said he frequently raised the issue within the administration and "should have been even more insistent" when his advice was spurned because the situation in Iraq might be different today. "The single most important change -- the one thing that would have improved the situation -- would have been having more troops in Iraq at the beginning and throughout" the occupation, Bremer said, according to the Banner-Graphic in Greencastle, Ind.

A Bremer aide said that his speeches were intended for private audiences and were supposed to have been off the record. Yesterday, however, excerpts of his remarks -- given at the Greenbrier resort at an annual meeting sponsored by the Council of Insurance Agents and Brokers -- were distributed in a news release by the conference organizers.

In a statement late last night, Bremer stressed that he fully supports the administration's plan for training Iraqi security forces as well as its overall strategy for Iraq.

more...

When Saturn conjoined my moon a mother figure in my life died. She was our favorite babysitter.
And let me tell you, Saturn return was something I noticed. Let's see, I had just had a baby, my husband lost his job, so i had two tots and an unemployed husband, and a supervisor at work with NO SYMPATHY. We lived far from any of our parents..
whew!! i cringe at the thought of ANOTHER saturn return some day!
Mimi

sorry, i forgot. perhaps you guys
figured out that my libra saturn is in the 6th house OF SERVICE.
I have enjoyed all the saturn stories too. I can't imagine not noticing!!! a saturn return, or even feeling it for only a week. But we've all got different aspects.
m

My first Saturn return was a big job, lots of responsibility and being on-call 24 hours a day.

However, I had 6 kids to deal with also. (Not all mine, but I raised them).

Saturn is in my 10th conjuncting the Sun opposing Jupiter in the 4th.

I got so pulled from home to work I had to give the job up and get a regular 9 to 5. It was either that or die from exhaustion.

One more note on Sadi Sati - when I knew this one was coming, I looked up the last one, and oddly enough, one of the best years of my life happened right when Saturn was on my moon the last time - ? Weird, but encouraging. There were several cross-country moves, lots of job changes, each one getting better, I think, and I recall the last third of it being the worst (damn!) as I was forced to return to my parents' house and be around my mother for several months before getting out again. That would have been Saturn in the 12th house; makes sense. Imprisonment... Anyway, very interesting. Does anyone else have Moon in Cancer in 11th?

Also, the Bush-with-earpiece thing is really on fire. This also explains the 7-8 second blank stare - bad connection? Rove was yawning? And now, after the whole go for the jugular bullsh*t Swift Boat smear, the GOPers are whining and sniveling that Bush is "being smeared" with this earpiece thing. Pathetic little whining pissants.

Take Action

Your 10 minutes of activism following the debate can make the difference.
1. Vote in Online Polls

National and local news organizations will be conducting online polls during and after the debate asking for readers' opinions. Look for online polls at these news websites, and make sure to vote in every one of them:

* CNN: http://www.cnn.com/
* MSNBC: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/
* Wall Street Journal: http://www.wsj.com/
* LA Times: http://www.latimes.com/
* Akron Beacon-Journal: http://www.ohio.com/
* Minneapolis-St. Paul Star-Tribune: http://www.startribune.com/
* Orlando Sentinel: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/
* Philadelphia Inquirer: http://www.philly.com/
* South Florida Sun-Sentinel: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/

http://www.democrats.org/debates/update.html

Check out the link, many more media related blogs to target

Morgana,

Thanks for the reminder about 'after the debate' duties... in my focus on how John E will do, I forgot!

Lucy, I have not heard "pissants" for ages, just love the word and thanks for bringing it back into my vocabulary.

Morgana, you rock out there on the coast, thanks so much for posting these sites to vote after the debate. The debate ends approximately when the Asc. is at 8 Gemini, John Edwards Jupiter and Moon will be applying to that asc, in fact the Asc. will be going over his Moon and Jupiter right before it rests on 8 Gemini at 9:30pm Cleveland time

I get the feeling that John Edwards is not a highly self-serving man. AS the winged messenger I think he has been selected to deliver us some very important information. The dark side of the coin will serve, I believe, as a reflection of Edward's light. Plus, Edwards is astoundingly clever.

Read the Daily Kos (if you haven't already) it is full of information. Be sure to scroll down and read the article about what the RNC is sending out to their "base" I still think the damage is done and every stumble, mis-speak, and bumble Bush makes will be viewed in a new light by the "on the fence" crowd.
http://www.dailykos.com/

Standing next to Edwards, it wouldn't take much for "Snarly" (I love that) to suddenly grow fangs and excess hair. It is my ardent wish that Edwards brings up Halliburton. That will clinch it, because he has the facts on his side. That they gouged on gas prices and other things; that they were fired by the Army. If he does this, you will hear a sonic YEEHAW!! coming from the general direction of New England. Can't wait.

Great article as always, Nancy. And Sally, thanks for digging deep down into the charts of Edwards, Cheney and tonight's debate. The yods you describe remind me of locked horns between the two men. I like that the event chart Ascendant is passing over Edwards's Moon and Jupiter by the end of the debate. This says to me that Cheney could win on substance (that is, he'll present the Bush policies much more cogently than Bush himself did, even though the policies are fundamentally insane), but that Edwards will win the "style debate."

I just wanted to thank this forum for all the insight it's provided me since I began lurking here in December 2003. It's uncanny the accuracy with which all of you have predicted the ebbs and flows of the campaign. Things looked kind of bleak for KE in September, but you said hold on, and voila, here we are in October with the momentum shifting Kerry's way.

Yeah Sally what Siobhan said. I want to pinpoint my mother's birthtime. I've never found physical descriptions of the rising sign to be a help. I figure she must have either Libra or Scorpio rising. She is a Cancer with Pluto conj her Sun. Surprisingly to me she has a grand trine in fire with Mercury, Jupitar/Uranus, and Saturn.I'm an armchair detective and would like to know what to look for. Main life tramas would be in a progressed chart yes? But would they show in the natal chart in anyway? She has that "I'm a doormat; the Man knows best" sexist attitude, which makes me think she has her Chiron in the 7th. Got any ideas or resources?

Jill, rectification of a chart is extremely complicated and requires a trememdous amount of astrological knowledge. The
Sun/Pluto conjunction would give her a decided Scorpio flavor and perhaps determine her appearance. Her marriage date can be helpful, is your father still living? His death if he has passed on, would be helpful. Any broken bones in her life? Her first job, children's birth, as an example what do you have on your 4th and 10th house and where are the rulers of those houses? that would be helpful, not always but sometimes. If you can get your siblings charts and compare those with yours, their 4 and 10 houses and the rulers of those houses and the aspects they make.
There are other indications but these would be the places to start.

Lucy, thanks for responding to the chart question upthread. It isn't my chart, but that of a poster on Salon. She is in some real pain right now.

I once considered doing graphics on computer, and for the same reason I didn't do it. It really pays though. Can you do some of your own art at the same time, perhaps wall art for a part time living?

A Sneak Preview of Tonight's Debate
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100604W.shtml

Also, the administration is halting some serious blocks to illegal aliens. MANY are stunned and are accusing the administration of creating a major problem for security. You really have to question the agenda of this administration.

Pat C, sorry, I realized that it was someone else's post AFTER, of course, I hit the POST button. Yes, I am getting back into my painting (partly on Miss Sally's suggestion...) to get me through this winter ahead, and to relieve some of the "computer stress." I keep a box of crayons on top of my computer just to remind me of my roots.

Yikes, the Bushies are really going off the deep end, ey? Desperation is in the air.

A previous poster had asked whether there was a vote in the House about the draft today. I don't know whether it's actually come to a vote, but Charles Rangel's draft resolution WAS brought out of committee to be voted on today - no meetings, no hearings, nothing preceding it. It is/was an attempt by congressional rethugs to vote against a draft to derail the charges that dimson will reinstitute it. Rangel argued that to vote against the resolution would do disservice to the troops on the ground in Iraq today. He called the attempt to steamroll a vote cynical and that any democrat who votes with the rethugs would be making a mistake. (I don't see how any dem could vote for it and survive politically now). Rangel's bill was always about trying make combat more equitable, i.e., making it a requirement that all young men and women had to serve the U.S. military in some capacity for a period of time so that the disproportionate number of working class and poor kids weren't always the ones having to bear the burden of combat.

Regardless of what the congressional rethugs say and do now, this issue will have to be confronted again very soon if the war continues. They're just trying to defuse this until the elections are over.

Also today, dimson declared that he would never reimpose the draft. I guess this move by the rethugs in the congress is just a 'belt and suspenders' move to shore up dimson's declaration.

Lucy, good for you!

I've often thought of hiring myself out as a mural artist. I'm still a little intimidated though.

Here is another link with lots of poll links after the debate.

http://tinyurl.com/3qk29

Let's kick some a**!

Well, Bremmer's comments are all over the mainstream airwaves, although I have too strong a gag reflex to look at Fox, so I don't know about them. If Edwards brings up Bremmer AND Halliburton, oh, God, I'll be good for the rest of my life, I swear.

Thanks, Pat C, and think about the murals! It took me months and months to get some canvases going, but it has been very liberating so far...

Got all the poll sites bookmarked. Let's out-Freep 'em!
Damn, this feels good! : D

Hey guys,

Can you please explain how this astrologer is basing her prediction that Edwards wins the debate?

the link is at:

http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/Feedback.asp?ChartID=48902

Just heard Dan Rather make the point that the burden of fighting these wars is falling disproportionately on lower-income Americans, at the end of a short report on the draft.

I'm pondering, with Bremmer making his remarks "off the record", yeah, right, just after Chimp's abysmal performance and just before the VP debate, and RUMSFELD's remark about no link between Iraq and AQ/OBL yesterday - are they all jumping ship? I mean, they are incredibly arrogant, granted, but do they really think ANYthing they say in the next 4 weeks will be off the record? No amount of backpeddling can erase Rummy saying what he said - the generals must be going insane over this. What's up with all the fantastically-timed insubordination?

Siobahn, i was going to say you're a trip but i realized it was a bad pun. that's amazing. i work with twins every now and again and it's always fascinating. the psychic energy is clearly there and there are all sorts of seeming coincidences for lesser mortals that are just natural for the multi-birth kids involved. triplets must be really amazing i also am adopted but was separated from my 'evil twin' at birth (or at least i'd like to think i had/have an evil twin).

this will be a great night. just remember, our warrior is debating the de facto president of the united states. a win or draw wll count as a big win. cheney meltdown on the event horizon.

Have you guys got a handle on the aspects for bush's "Mulligan"(from DU poster) speech for tomorrow or thursday.
For non golfers, Mulligan is a golf term meaning do-over. Bush gets to do a do-over to try to repair his performance from last thursday nite.

I hope he doesnt look so hot again.
fala

Teresa! Thank you for your info regarding the Saturn return and birth times. I also enjoyed your story about you and the Ex and his new wife!I laughed out loud! One of my sisters is like that and nobody that knows her will vex her enough to get on her bad side - she once wrote checks out from my checkbook and cashed them and took off for Europe, took my passport as well as a credit card and charged her way merrily across France in my name! I was staying with friends for a summer break from school and never knew anything was wrong until I got back and credit card bills started to arrive in my name. Took me two years to straighten my credit back out - she still thinks it was hilarious! We are so different that I sometimes wonder how we both were born into this trio and share the same sunsign! We are like day/night! Oh, she also one year after a disagreement signed me and my sister up for 50 different magazine subscriptions in our names ... grrrrr! That Scorpio thing!

fala, "Mulligan"--what a perfect description. Has anyone heard when or where the speech will be?

Re rectifying a chart--my daughter is adopted and we have only day and place of birth. I've tried in my amateur way to guesstimate her ascendant, but have no confidence in what I've come up with so far. Some day when I have some cash I'll get all her significant dates together and ask a pro to do it.

Is dimson's speech an address that will preempt network television for coverage by the press corps?

Debate Scorecard

While party hacks and pundits concentrate on how to spin the Dick Cheney - John Edwards debate in Cleveland tonight, MediaChannel.org and the Tyndall Report have created the Citizens Debate Scorecard so that viewers can beat spin doctors to the punch -- by responding in real-time via the Web.

More than 4,900 Americans of every political stripe participated in last Thursday's Bush/Kerry debate monitoring by rating the broadcast as soon as it was completed. The results from Thursday's broadcast are here.

I'm writing now to invite you to join tonight's debate panel. Complete the Debate Scorecard following tonight's live broadcast. The Scorecard asks which issues and candidate aspects were glossed over, which were examined in excess -- and which were just right. We rate the questioning skills and style of PBS moderator Gwen Ifill. And we respond to the debate format and whether it encourages a frank discussion between candidates.

Results from citizen monitoring are fed back within hours to the moderators, media outlets and the campaigns as a voter-driven guide to covering the issues that matter to Americans most. CNN, Reuters, TIME magazine, Cox News Service, Knight-Ridder and several city newspapers and TV stations have requested the results from your monitoring so please complete the scorecard tonight so that we can get your perspectives into tomorrow's headlines.

Register for tonight's debate at:

http://www.mediachannel.org/debate2004/register/

The Scorecard is online at:

http://www.mediachannel.org/vpdebate2004/

You can begin scoring there as soon as you've watched the debate. Please also forward this announcement to your contacts so that they can fill in the scorecard, too.

Times

Began 9:02 EDT or 8:02 CT

Cheney began at 9:03 EDT or 8:03 CT

Edwards began at 9:05 EDT or 8:05 CT

Here Is A Link To Du's List Of Polls To Vote IN:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x974046

The lying Cheney scum sounds too glib and plausible. Edwards sounds on the defensive even though he is telling the truth.
My stomach hurts, please make the weasel slipup.
Hey, they are at a table. Is Cheney a lot shorter than Edwards too?

Jill

He is not able to stand for 90 minutes.

Rumsfeld: No 'Hard Evidence' of Iraq - Al Qaeda Link
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100604A.shtml

Iraq 10.05: Car Bombs and Headless Westerners
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100604B.shtml

Bremer and Pentagon Clash over Troop Levels
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100604C.shtml

Goss ChevronTexaco Pick Withdraws
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100604D.shtml

The New York Times | The Nuclear Bomb That Wasn't
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100604E.shtml

Poland Sets Pullout from Iraq in 2005
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100604F.shtml

Lead Levels in Water Misrepresented Across U.S.
http://www.truthout.org/environment.shtml

Afghan Presidential Candidate Denounces Treatment of Women
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100604H.shtml

Anonymous | The State Department's Extreme Makeover
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100604I.shtml

Kerry Promotes Expanded Stem Cell Research
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/100604J.shtml

I don't want to speak too early, but...Cheney is mumbling, rambling, and there is no likeablity. But, it's still 9:50 East Coast time.

I have never been so happy to be wrong!!!! I also think we must have the wrong birth time for Cheney. There is no way he has Venus on his Ascendant tonight. He seems to have poison vapors streaming around him!! Edwards is eviscerating him!!!! Edwards is infinitely more appealing and clear. Cheney just seems to be a bitter old man.

I AM SO PROUD OF EDWARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ouch! I think that Bush should sit out the other debates and let Cheney handle them. Sad to say, he's walking all over Edwards. Only good point Edwards has managed so far is the one about the $5bn for Gulf War I vs the $200bn now. A real eye opener...

"We don't just value wealth, we value work in this country." Vice President Edwards

I think Edwards is holding his own although I cringed when he briefly showed a flash of anger but he recovered nicely. it's too bad they can't be on their feet. I think Edwards would be much more effective.

Whoa!
. . . Can Cheney shovels S**T or What? Those extra chromosome Republicans must be really dazzled by the rotten old degenerate and his unremitting ramblings.

Edwards rocks!!! It gets better and better . . .

Cheney can say the most dispicable things with a calm soothing demeanor.

Edwards whacked the air out of the room when he quoted Cheney's voting record. The things Cheney voted against should put a permanent chill up the spines of any American.

score the debate at NPR!!!!!!!!

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/vote2004/debates/ballot_vp.html

go truth warriors!!!!!!!

What? Cheney is too weak to stand?! Well that proves that the last thing to go is a forked-tongue.
His lying is so smooth that I hope he appears on TV to be real shifty to everyone. Just listening to it makes Edwards sound like he's struggling to convincingly overcome the SlimeLord. >sigh<

Dick is trying to look like a wise-man, grandfather. He just looks tired.

Mike,
Cheney may be trying to appear like a kindly grandfather. . . .but all he looks like and sounds like is Mr. Burns on The Simpsons

CNN poll
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/05/debate.main/index.html

I can't stand watching Cheney. He's depressing and unwatchable.

msnbc poll
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/

From the MSNBC poll

Who won the debate?   * 8173 responses

VP Dick Cheney
22%

Sen. John Edwards
78%

JE's calling them on the flip-flops. Edwards was just licking his chops waiting to respond on the lies. Did you see his eyes? Not anger. Cheney keeps walking into the trap. Man, that Cheney's energy is sooooo dreary. Mumbling, stooping (hiding heart), hands on chin and blah ,blah blah.Monotone, scary. He's getting creamed and his slimy smooth fake Reagan drawl is coming off old and in the way. When JE talked about a plan to curtail the trials for malpractice Cheney's head flew back, he flipped. That was the most energy I saw from him all night. He really is a 900 yr old reptile alien ;)

I'm in real like with JE, awesome energy, and love his potent use words for the time allowed on his responses. His voice sounds like a cowboy to me, how ironic.

BTW a little fly flew in ,smell the smell?

Don't getcha, Mars - Edwards mopped the floor with Cheney! He was clear, he was effective in the use of repetition for those who need to hear things a few times... Cheney declined to comment further on a few points where Edwards simply told the TRUTH and nailed him - another sparkling clean floor thanks to the power of the truth. And OMG, he not only brought up Halliburton more than once, bless his soul, but the Bushie's cut in combat pay for soldiers - Heaven.... I'm in Heaven....

In his final summation Cheney did his usual Grim Reaper “Fear Factor” mantra.

ABC post debate poll "slightly weighted toward
Republicans" -- 43-38 Dickster -- and they wonder why we hate them with a passion.

I'm with Lucy, JE was THE MAN!!! DC was just too creepy!!! Sure, he sounded knowledgeable, but he also sounded nasty......

CNN: Edwards 85%

From the Orlando Sentinel:

Who won the vice presidential debate?
5.1%
Dick Cheney (868 responses)

94.6%
John Edwards (15993 responses)

0.3%
Not sure (48 responses)

16909 total responses
Results are not scientific

DC was indeed very creepy for the first hour. He seemed angry and had a poisonous energy in his aura. JE was clear and strong and focused. He could have answered a few things better, but I think overall he was terrific. I also think the viseral feel of the debate was a clear win for Edwards. Cheney was indeed creepy. I didn't see any evidence of Venus on the Ascendant.

Paul Begala's comments from his CNN blog...
Darth Cheney Warms the World:
Posted: 10:49 p.m.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/blog/10/05/begala.blog/
Cheney's closing statement, after Edwards' personal story, was perfunctory.

You half expect him to open the window and yell, "Hey you kids, get off my lawn!"

Where Cheney's in his element is when he's dark. He positively glows when he talks about the potential for a nuclear attack on America. Grrrrr...we're all gonna die....grrrr....the terrorists are coming....grrrr....only my light saber can save you.

Nancy, would Uranus opposing the asc have changed the perception since it was reflecting from the 7th?

That would be WARNS the world....Cheney couldn't warm his hands, let alone the world....

Damn! I can't get into all the polls, and some make it really hard to find - waiting for Philly.com and Minneapolis Star Tribune.

Love that 94%! No way can they steal this one.

Oh my God, I feel like I'm going to levitate.

The spin has begun - and John E. has been declared DOA.

I can't believe I'm seeing such a misrepresentation of what happened tonight.

Dear God. We are f....d.

Do I need treatment for psychological problems?

Edwards mopped the floor with cheney. The media are spinning that cheney won this shit. Edwards was so far ahead of Cheney that I can't believe what I'm listenting to.

Dear god -- we're done here.

Watched the debate on CBS and am now listening to MSNBC. Personally, I felt it was a draw. Both participants held their own to me. However, if pressed at a website poll to declare a winner, I'd have to choose John Edwards. If they gave me a "draw" option, I'd choose that.

CBS tended to say that both did well. MSNBC is really pumping on Cheney. Guess they haven't looked at their own poll yet. (smirk)

But damn, I so wanted JE to mention the MI congressman that was strong armed about the Medicare pkg vote and the Repub dirty tricks on the division of America question. Oh well.......
But there was that one Cheney gaff about the "next president"........

more poll links. DU is clogged. please

Cheney looked like an evil Darth Vadar with the evil swirling all around him - next to him on the split screen on C-Span John Edwards looked like an Angel of the Light coming to reveal the truths to the American people. You could almost see the difference in the light and dark between both men - Cheney looking old and tired and still beating the same drum of terrorists in the night and being afraid - always the fear swirling around his message. John Edwards on the other hand was like someone coming to rescue you from four years of a very bad dream .. time to take his hand and wake up in a different place, this time one of hope and peace and new beginnings.

Mike, Yahoo is 63% to Edeards, 29% Cheney, 7% tie

Susan! (Respectfully) - Snap out of it! They can spin all they want - even the polls set up specifically for undecided voters gave it to Edwards, and 58% !!! said they now held a more favorable view of the Kerry/Edwards team and that it WOULD influence their vote!
They are now truly desperate. They will say the sky is green.

From Ohio.com:

Did Cheney or Edwards change, confirm or sway your vote?
I still intend to vote for Bush/Cheney    
44 votes (1%)
I still intend to vote for Kerry/ Edwards  
2895 votes (52%)
I was going to vote for Bush/Cheney, now I will vote for Kerry/Edwards    
1201 votes (22%)
I was going to vote for Kerry/Edwards, now I will vote for Bush Cheney  
25 votes (0%)
I am now going to vote for Bush/Cheney  
11 votes (0%)
I am now going to vote for Kerry Edwards    
1356 votes (24%)
I am still undecided. The debate was of no help in my choice  
8 votes (0%)

Every poll I've been to, John E is winning big time... and Kos has trouble keeping up with the traffic for his links...

John-John are two for two!

Yes, bhakti, there definitely is a troll onboard... but, hey, who cares...? He's so obviously unhappy!!

Don't listen to MSNBC or even CNN polls ..they need to give this one to Cheney and they know it.They know they can't lose all these debates .. all Cheney had to do tonight was show up and they already planned to say he "won", he could have sprouted horns and spit fire balls and they would still say he won this .... they know they are in BIG trouble and the sky is falling! And, they have their Chicken Little facing Kerry again .. they have to be pulling their hair out by now off camera! Don't lose any sleep over it - Edwards was wonderful and did a great job .. anybody with two eyes and two ears saw/heard the truth up there tonight.

Susan-
Calm down--what did you expect? My prediction was that if Darth Cheney did only a little better than Shrub, the media would "declare" him the "winner"--now you're surprised? Remember, the next BIG one is Friday night--and even though Shrub probably thinks he'll be at an advantage(wearing a wire, probably), JFK has already shown what he can do. Just sucks that it's on a Friday, when the crucial voters(younger) probably won't see it....but I'm taping it to judge for myself and avoid buying the SCUM spin.....do not lose heart, truth warriors......blue light to all, TRUTH is the answer!!!

Susan-
Calm down--what did you expect? My prediction was that if Darth Cheney did only a little better than Shrub, the media would "declare" him the "winner"--now you're surprised? Remember, the next BIG one is Friday night--and even though Shrub probably thinks he'll be at an advantage(wearing a wire, probably), JFK has already shown what he can do. Just sucks that it's on a Friday, when the crucial voters(younger) probably won't see it....but I'm taping it to judge for myself and avoid buying the SCUM spin.....do not lose heart, truth warriors......blue light to all, TRUTH is the answer!!!

I humbly apologize for the double post folks--my computer wasn't letting me see that my post had gone through.

Ok, the eclipse hasn't even happened yet, I guess we are in the pre eclipse whatever.... But, the big 3 of famous have all ready died. Gordon Cooper, Janet Leigh and now Rodney Dangerfield, sigh. So now I am wondering, what next?

As for the debates, I am thinking, we will have to watch how it all falls into place as all weigh in. Could'nt take the crap on MSNBC anymore, so went to CSPAN. Andrew Sullivan isn't being that cruel, surprise. I am thinking that its a Venus/Uranus thing. In synestry, JE's natal Uranus is opp Cheney's natal Venus which to me further echoed the trans Venus opp Uranus configuration.

Here is the link for Faux

http://www.foxnews,com

Poll is toward bottom of page. Just now it was Cheney 41%
Edwards 57%

Every poll I've checked and voted in has had Edward so far in the lead that there's not even any dust for Cheney to eat! This is totally rockin' - and now the job is to get the vote out. If you live in a swing state, I sure hope you're getting in touch to be a poll watcher, to drive people to the polls, to do whatever it takes to have the thugs beaten so totally, soundly, and thoroughly that even their vote-stealing machines can't save their fat ol' patooties.

On another note, if anyone can help me with a personal astrological thing, I'd appreciate it. My son (6/26/71 at 7:35 AM) has not spoken to me in over six months, since I had the temerity to tell him he needed to start taking care of his own needs, paying his own bills, and to stop leaching off his girlfriends. I'm thinking he may be into his Saturn return, as mine occurred in my early 30s and I had to "divorce" myself from my parents for a few years to get a perspective and find my own strength. I used to have a chart for him but can't find it anywhere...

Anyway, blue light, purple haloes, and freedom and coherence are on the march!

One other thought - the younger crowd, the same ones who use mostly cell phones and don't show up in the phone polls, are the ones who were weaned on computers and will be seeing the "real" polls online rather than listening to the talking heads. They, and women, will swing this election.

I know hopes have been crushed in the past, but those days are OVA! Really, we are seeing the turning of the tide, and we MUST keep the faith and register people and drive them to the polls and make sure there are exit polls being done at your polling place.

Good night, lovely people, and SWEET DREAMS!!

Apparently CNN couldn't handle the poll results so they pulled it and threw up another question, which I suppose is supposed to make you question whether or not the VP Debate has any merit! New question, did the VP debate change your mind about how you will vote? yes is ahead of no... but, tell me please... what does that mean? Again, they couldn't stand Edwards' 86% lead!

John Edwards looked straight into the camera and spoke to the 'people' ---- they understand what he is saying... they know their jobs are disappearing, their health insurance is nil, their parents are losing medicare and ss benefits... the robber barons are back, have been for 3 1/2 yrs., and they are worse than the 20s. John pulled them in with his story and his body language... you go John... go Kerry! Go people... we're on a roll... wait 'til Friday... JFK is going to romp *...

Lucy - thanks. I needed that!

God I can't stand the media support props (redundant) that has happened in this country over ... since when??

It dawns on me that these so-called 'journalists' are just the media whores that they've been accused of being.

Well, I guess they HAVE to support the de facto "president". They put him there. They cheerleadered the way to war. Maybe it makes them feel better. They have such a 'relationship' with him since he makes the Sunday rounds every week. Dimson is 'clearing brush' in Crawford most Sundays...

Jeeeeeeeze.

Baraka, where was your son born? Need Long and Lat to be able to do a chart. City? State?

One thing that was abundantly clear from tonite's debate was this: More of the same? or Change?

We all know who stands for what. I am finally beginning to get some real hope going here, which for my own repressive, depressive, Saturnian Self is a "good thing."

Here is an excellent link to all of the post-debate polls, go ahead and vote on them:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x974046

OKAY. I've been 'bitch slapped'. I'm done.

Thanks! I Needed That!

I just talked to my 82-year old mother who told me to calm down - She loved John. She wanted my reassurance that her registration was ok. It is! Thank goodness.

I feel MUCH better now.

from the Democrats.com newsletter...

__The Vice-Presidential Debate: Dick Cheney's House of Lies

A Buzzflash Editorial: "You'd just as soon have Dick Cheney over for a cup of coffee as have the local mortician over for a cup of tea. But let's face it, tonight's debate pitted the Democratic vice-presidential candidate against the Republican Vice-President, who is really the acting President of the United States. Although as boring as drying wallpaper and as brazen a liar as a ballroom pickpocket, Cheney clearly, once again, proved that junior is just the pedigree puppet whose strings are pulled by Dick."
http://www.buzzflash.com/editorial/04/10/edi04071.html

From talking points:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

It occurs that I've stepped in it about the 'bitch slap' comment. I don't mean anything by that. It just seemed right insofar as when a person gets so emotional about something that someone else has to knock them 'upside the haid' to bring them back to reality.

Anyway. I know what we're dealing with here. I guess I hoped that we were dealing with a 'media' that would have rather had a rout than an 'even exchange' of ideas. I just so desperately want these guys to JUST GO AWAY. FAR. FAR. AWAY.

Is Bush Wired?

http://www.isbushwired.com/

Yellow Dog Democrat

http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=4223849&a=31310391&p=69690755

****************************

*****DIS INTER MEDIATED*****

****************************

the leaders work for us and they're learning that. i think k/e have really grown and embrased the larger truth of their mission.

the media doesn't get the message yet. they are like a club of people who have known each other for years and still tell the same old lies.

we are in the midst of a dis-inter-mediation process. c-span, the www, blogs, etc. all ofer less 'in-between' and more direct access.

gores new cable news channel will get a huge boost. it will have every democrat news junkie plus the 18-32 audience.

the nice thing is that the media is totally clueless. can't wait!

Pat C....oh, thank you for that yellow dog! I laughed so hard....and I had been so tired ....

Heard an interesting rumor today....during the group meeting I go to on the first Tuesday of every month (next one is election day). We were talking about election 2000 and I brought up that there was something terribly fishy about how Al Gore caved in and how the Supremes selected B**....one of the women said....apparently the Supremes were told that if they didn't select B**, that CIVIL WAR would be breaking out so they had better vote the "right" way.

Okay. I came very close to making a very hostile and angry post about some of Cheney's remarks. And then I thought to myself, "No...let the people decide."

Yihiyu l'ratzon imrey fi, imrey fi
V'hegyon libi lifanecha
Adonai tzuri, Adonai
Tzuri, v'goali, v'goali

Judi, don't you love it? That's one happy dog!

"O, what a tangled we weave." or something like that. The old ruler of Aquarius was in play tonight trying to bedevil and shame the impudent Gemini. "This is the first time I have ever seen you...you have been absent...you haven't been doing your job as a senator...if you can't stand up to Howard Dean, how can you stand up to Al'Qaida." The debate was not a cliff hanger. Edwards established that he could hold his own against a seasoned curmudgeon. Still, the papers, the news, even Rumsfeld and Bremmer have and will bear out the truth of Edwards' statements. I cannot believe the extent to which much of our nation is still in some Neptunian trance preferring some kind of mythology to the facts. Pluto by transit squaring our natal Neptune?

Sorry, the above post was mine. I forgot to put my name to it. Goodnight all.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/archive/2004/10/05/eguillermo.DTL

B**'s Civil Rights record is disgusting and depressing...but then, when did civil rights ever matter to them?

So Aaron Brown runs a film byte of John Edwards seated next to Dick Cheney, followed by Lynn Cheney and flanked by Elizabeth Edwards at a prayer breakfast in 2001. Hmmm...maybe Cheney has alzheimers or dementia? Never met him huh? Right.

I have noticed that kerrys Pluto north node sits right on bush's ascendent and is of course very close to his Mercury Pluto conjunction.

Pluto rules anything related to being paralyzed and the thought has occured to me that kerrys presence causes Bush to freeze up.If you have ever known somneone with Pluto on your ascendent you might see what I mean. There is something about them that is to strong and it shuts you down.

Put Edwards progressed chart up this morning.
his pr moon is at 21 aries, pr ascendent is 20 Leo ,with pr pluto at 21 leo, and pr Saturn Neptune at 21 libra. This means that his progressed ascendent in the next year will come over pluto and be in an exact sextile with his natal Saturn Neptune

This is a once in a life time configuration and is defently what you would look for for someone about to get hugely involved with the collective issues of our time.

Edwards natal Sun is in the 12th house and in a trine with his Saturn Neptune at 21 libra.Thus he is a serious sober and compassionate Gemini.

It also does not hurt that his progressed Jupiter is one degree from being conjucnt his Natal sun at 18 Gemini and is exactly on Kerrys moon.

Come next Jan. 2oth Jupiter at 18 Libra will be exaclty trine his natal sun at 18 gemini and one degree from being trine his pr Jupter at 17 Gemini.

His pr ascendent and Pluto I might add is nearly at the mid point of his natal Sun trine Saturn Neptune and this I think accounts for his rise from relative obscurity since last year.

The new moon eclipse coming up falls in a sextile trine to his ascendent descendent axis in a trine to his natal sun and right on his natal Saturn neptune in Libra.This brings out the potential of that ascendent so near pluto and in appying aspect to the Saturn Pluto.

In Bush's case that eclipse falls near his moon which is the depositer of his Sun in cancer.So his moon is elcipsed by the eclipse and has little power to help anything in cancer(which the moon rules)

In such a manner both the sun and moon in Bush chart can be said to be "eclipsed" by the full moon preceeding the election.

It is also said in antiquity that when the suns face is darkened the monarch of the land is in grave danger.

More importantly it falls on his fourth house cusp of endings and is square both his natal Saturn and transiting Saturn.

About the debate.Edwards is a real class act and adds greatly to whole aura of the canidacy.He literaly exahusted Chenny and had the debate gone longer I dont think Chenny would have been able to say anything.

Iam glad it was in Ohio as I think it was probably well watched in that state and I have little doubt that those on the fence who watched have new respect for the kerry Edwards canidacy.

It really helped Edwards that Bremmer made those statements just before the debate and Chenny did not even try to give an answer when Bremmers statments were brought up.

It ws so tedious listening to Chenny but when Edwards spoke you could just feel people wanting to hear what he had to say.

Of course Iam biased but Iam glad Edwards took on Chenny.He is the one person who can make a person who looks like he knows it all suddenly look like he is just throwing out a lot of nice sounding words.

Saturn which rules Chennys Sun will go into his 12th house and conjunct his pluto which sits on the cusp of his 12th next year.That pluto broadly opposite his sun is what gives him the darth vader look and the fact his Sun is also square Saturn.

And... I wont go into it now but between Saturn going into Chennys 12th and the Saturn aspect to Jupiter, the depositer of the ruler of Chennys tenth in his vedic chart I think it can be said he is now on the down ward path and is about to see the third presidency he has been a part of not be able to be elected to a second term.

Pat C, Hang in there. Remember my white dove. Trim down, keep life simple. You will get younger, more light filled. My vibes when I read your post. The bird flies with two wings, Faith and Self-Effort. Something better will come your way.

Susan,
It's not about the media going away, because it's not going to change overnight. Don't watch it . Period. It's about not paying attention to what 'they' say and 'they' think. The media needs to feed it gluttonous lifestyles and will say anything ad nauseum to pay for that mountain of gluttony. My inner eye saw last Thurs and tonight and I *feel* VERY positive about K/E. Keep our blue light shinging around our candidates.

I think it will help the Universe to help us if we focus on Pro-Kerry rather than Boo-Hoos, what-ifs and what nots this close before the election.
Keep the energy focused on the finish line and let whatever happens inbetween go on. We are participating in amazing history, let the Universe help us, it's been good to us so far with these brave souls against the BFEE.

bhakti, that post is from a woman who posts on Salon. I brought it over here looking for astrological advice. I love your impression, and am taking it back to Salon for Nina.

Blessings to you.

It was a kind of draw on debate ability, but when Edwards jabbed him he did it really well, giving Edwards the win in the end. I was particularly fond of the part where Cheney was exposed as having voted against Meals on Wheels, Headstart, and the Martin Luther King holiday, among others. It was great!

Just thought I'd jump in and ask if anyone else noticed the incredible symbology that occurred at the very end of the debate when John Edwards jumped up and leaned over a still sitting Cheney to shake his hand? It was like watching Jack Kennedy and Nixon all over again -- it literally made me gasp... .

Edwards looked so vibrant and alive and in control, while Cheney just looked slow and old. After Edwards finished shaking hands and turned away Cheney slowly stumbled up out of the chair --looking old and tired.

It was as though in that one 30 second moment a thousand words were being said. Better than all the words said during the debate.

Thanks Lawrence for the link to all of the post-debate polls! In the course of trying to vote, I ran across another article commenting on the fact that in the debate Cheney said he never met Edwards before the debate, although in truth he had met him -- TWICE.

Got me to thinking what Sally said earlier:

"I think there is a chance that Edwards Saturn/Neptune apex to Dick's Moon/Uranus Sextile and Edwards Progressed Moon and the Square from Dick's Venus and the debate Midheaven setting it all off might trip Dick into saying something he doesn't intend to say, I just don't know what the ramifications will for the American people, or how it will be taken."

Maybe this issue just may have "legs". Could this contribute to Cheney's image being shown as old and tired? That can't be good for someone running for vice-president.

Here's one of the articles:

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20041006_23.html

Meeting Was Not First for Cheney, Edwards
Vice President Dick Cheney, Sen. John Edwards Met Twice Before Debate Despite Cheney's Statement

The Associated Press

CLEVELAND Oct. 6, 2004 — Vice President Dick Cheney said Tuesday that the debate against Democratic Sen. John Edwards marked the first time the two had met. In fact, the two had met twice previously. "Now, in my capacity as vice president, I am the president of Senate, the presiding officer. I'm up in the Senate most Tuesdays when they're in session. The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight," Cheney told Edwards during the debate.

In February 2001, the vice president thanked Edwards by name at a Senate prayer breakfast. Edwards aides also said the two met when the first-term North Carolina senator accompanied, Elizabeth Dole, to her swearing-in by Cheney in January 2003.Edwards didn't forget. The Democratic vice presidential nominee noted the discrepency at a post-debate rally in a Cleveland park and used it as an example of Cheney "still not being stratight with the American people."

"The vice president said that the first time I met Senator Edawrds was tonight when we walked on the stage. I guess he forgot the time we sat next to each other for a couple hours about three years ago. I guess he forgot the time we met at the swearing in of another senator. So, my wife Elizabeth reminded him on the stage," Edwards said as the crowd roared.According to Edwards staff, Cheney replied, "Oh, yeah."

"She reminded him about the truth," Edwards told the crowd, "and come November, we're going to remind him that the American people do not want four more years of George W. Bush."Cheney made the remark in accused Edwards of frequent absences from Senate votes.

Chas, from you lips to a higher power's ear that Cheney is on a downward path and in essence will not see a second term.

BTW gang, my repug friend called me after the debate to say that Kerry will get her vote because of Edwards. She's one of the single women voters that both parties are courting.

Chas, forgot to sign my name.

Janet

Action! Action! Read all about it! Get your government's dark secrets here:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/

Pilots "toast" hit an Iraqui civilians..

http://news.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=569207&host=3&dir=70

E. Howard Hunt knows many, many dark secrets--including, probably, details about the JFK assassination. Yet, somehow, he will never be put under oath and made to tell what happened. Yessir, rockin' in the free world!

Bush is dead wrong...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5032517-103677,00.html

I love yellow dogs! ; ) Thanks, that is priceless.
Susan, welcome back! It's OK, we have all had moments of doubt, but the sun is UP! They are so on the defensive now, their desperation will become more and more obvious.

Is the next pres. debate going to be in the Town Hall format with questions from audience members? My husband shouted that up the stairs to me last night after I went to bed - if so, it's just a slam-dunk. Chimp will be so panicked, he'll wet his pants.

Do the 60 second visualization. It works. President Kerry is already chosing his cabinet.

* Pastor bush http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1320764,00.html

"At The Right Moment Edwards Pounced"! Good read from Today's newspaper by Jimmy Breslin

http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/newyork/nyc-nybres063996617oct06,0,4694639.story?coll=nyc-nynews-print

JoannaOregon - thanks for that article! Have passed it along!

Kathleen, yes! I did see that moment. It was wonderful!

Siobhan, that was my favorite monemt in the debate. If you investigate further, Cheney's voting record is even worse than that.

http://www.madison.com/obits/

The Associated Press

MADISON, Wis. (October 1, 6:33 pm ADT) - Send no flowers to commemorate Jane Buffett's death, her husband asks. Instead, send John Kerry to the White House.

In a paid obituary published in Madison's two daily newspapers, Roger Buffett celebrated his wife's years as a mother, homemaker, grandmother and English teacher. But, he said, she was "outraged" by President Bush's decision to invade Iraq and then expecting "her grandchildren to pay the bills." Other Bush administration policies angered her as well.

"She saw John Kerry as the candidate who would most conserve everything she valued," the obituary said. "Jane fought to live long enough to be able to vote this November. To honor her memory, please do everything you can to elect John Kerry."

Jane Buffett, 64, died of cancer Sept. 25. The obituary, which called her a "fiery woman," appeared Monday.

"Why just try to waste obituaries, saying someone was a super nice person, if they want to have their own reach beyond the grave and give them one last breath of life for what they've been living for?" her husband said.

---

On the Net:

Madison.com: http://www.madison.com/obits/

Is it just me, or does anyone else notice that Cheney looks more like Edgar Bergen everyday?

Can you believe it? It is about 11:25 AM EDT and Bush has already given his "significant policy speech" (his Mulligan, as fala cleverly put it). I have no idea when speech started or where it was given.

I missed the big event, but happened to log onto Eschaton (Atrios) who was watching with the sound off. Posters there say it was the regulation campaign speech complete with slurs against Kerry and made to an audience of oath-signing true believers.

Guess the Resident's handlers figured he wasn't ready for prime time but calling this a "significant policy speech" got them free coverage on CNN.

Do you suppose C-Span will re-broadcast? I'd like to take a look.

Mark Morford is at it again..and right on!

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/g/a/2004/10/06/notes100604.DTL&type=printable

Do you think 8 yrs. ago, Bill Clinton would have rec'd time on CNN for a rant before partisans he was calling a 'significant policy speech'?

First of all, Clinton was more savvy than that... he didn't have to screen his audience, and he held a press conference and answered questions about any significant policy he wanted to address. Golly, how 'dumbed down' the office of the pResident has become!!!

Remember these words from Sally upthread?

"I think there is a chance that Edwards Saturn/Neptune apex to Dick's Moon/Uranus Sextile and Edwards Progressed Moon and the Square from Dick's Venus and the debate Midheaven setting it all off might trip Dick into saying something he doesn't intend to say, I just don't know what the ramifications will for the American people, or how it will be taken. Nevertheless Astroworld folks, listen carefully with an open mind."

Well, Cheney told a blatant LIE (among many) when he said 'before tonight I had never met you...'

The blogs are all over the place with this one, saying it indicates how pathological his lying is. And the media is picking on it, with photos of them at a prayer breakfast in 2001, of them with Elizabeth Dole when she was sworn in in 2003...

So, I guess our astrologers are on the mark again! Nancy, I don't think any amount of benefic aspects could make Darth Vader look good, esp., up next to charismatic John Edwards... will never happen... so, you didn't call the aspect wrong, it's just that Cheney can't manifest charm or goodness...

Kudos to Sally and Nancy!!! and light to John-John ... lots of it... Go People... take back the White House, the Senate, the House...

PS Jupiter in Libra... is 'justice' coming for Tom DeLay? 'bout time, don't you think?

Yes, folks most of the people in the Republican party now are just plain nuts!!

Mike's Words : Mike's Message

Wednesday, October 6th, 2004

REPUBLICANS, OUT OF IDEAS, ASK PROSECUTORS TO ARREST MICHAEL MOORE

Dear Friends,

You may have heard by now that the Michigan Republican Party has called for my arrest. That's right. They literally want me brought up on charges -- and hope that I'm locked up.

No, I'm not kidding. The Republican Party, yesterday, filed a criminal complaint with the prosecutors in each of the counties where I spoke last week in Michigan.

My crime? Clean underwear for anyone who will vote in the upcoming election.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-10-06

Cheney didn't just lie about not meeting Edwards before last night; he also lied about never saying that there was a link between Saddam and 9/11 and Al-Qaeda (he said it on Meet The Press, just months ago). Thankfully, the press called him on it, for a change.

I think that both Nancy and Sally were right on target. I don't think you had the wrong birth time at all. Cheney did about as well as you can do when you're Darth Vader.

This guy exudes evil, and Christians who don't know any better fall for it. It's amazing to me that they don't seem to know the difference!

Please continue to send light to JK/JE, and to our country, in the hopes that we will choose hope over fear. And that Kerry runs the table for the next two debates.

CNN is polling again...go vote

Who do you think won last night's vice presidential debate?
Vice President Dick Cheney
Sen. John Edwards

http://www.cnn.com/

I agree with Jo and gina--I've certainly seen Cheney looking worse. Tues night may well have been the best face Cheney can put forward, even with lovely Venus on the Asc.

Interesting, isn't it, that instead of practicising off-camera with a tough crowd, Dubya returns to the sure-comfort (reliable as a bottle) of a screened partisan crowd with cameras rolling. Not the best way to prepare for Round 2.

bushfatiqued,
I amost fell off my chair laughing at the letter Michael Moore wrote about the Repubs wanting him arrested. That guy is so darn funny you just got'a love him. I think MM has put the fear of God in that gaggle of crazies. For a real true to life American hero and patriot I think MM fits the bill.

I fell asleep before the end but it seemed by then that Edwards had the edge on substance while Cheney had the edge on style. However it worked against the Republicans - Cheney's performance was in such sharp contrast to the President's rambling, petulant and incoherent one, that you were left wonderinng "so what the heck does that B*sh guy do, anyway?"

Also, Cheney's doging of too many direct questions could come back to haunt him. However, I think Kerry and Edwards would have a much stronger position if they had been opposed to the war in Iraq from day one (like Kucinch)

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1006/dailyUpdate.html

Iran prepares uranium for enrichment

The move defies UN nuke watchdog. Pundits discuss Israel's possible intervention.

A Kossack diary:

Cheney Attendance at Senate
by Dave the pro
[Subscribe]

Wed Oct 6th, 2004 at 17:30:44 GMT

(From the diaries, Cheney presided over the Senate a grand total of two times the past four years -- just one more time than Edwards, who did so once. Slightly edited -- kos)
"Now, in my capacity as vice president, I am the president of Senate, the presiding officer. I'm up in the Senate most Tuesdays when they're in session."
--Dick Cheney

The extended entry has the presiding officers over the last four years for every Tuesday session.

http://dailykos.com/story/2004/10/6/11163/2940

As Kos says, it would be easier to catalog the 'truthful statements' coming from Cheney!

For the record:

The words of Vice President Dick Cheney in a speech on Aug. 26, 2002, 6 1/2 months before the invasion:

"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction," Cheney said then. "There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies and against us."

http://observer.com/pages/nytv.asp

This is a good one about the networks.

maybe this is the statement that DC didn't mean to say?

http://www.fcw.com/fcw/articles/2004/1004/web-fact-10-06-04.asp

Re: Cheney. I'm really wondering about this man. (I know, it's tough). I had to work late at the office, so I had to listen to the debbate on the radio. So my impressions were strictly based on their voices and their delivery, rather than the visual.

So I didn't see Cheney looking down a lot, like they say on the DU. Instead, what I heard was a man who has polished lying to impeccable perfection. I must admit, I was taken aback by his utter conviction, his complete faith in the statements he made, which of course are lies.

It just kinda takes your breath away. How can someone do this? And just know that by Wednesday morning, they will be slicing and dicing his statements to be untrue.

Cheney's voice was flat and monotone throughout. Often, though, it turned up slightly at the very end of a statement. No doubt, this guy is smart. But he appears to be more cunning than intelligent.

I got the impression from his monotone statements that this is a man who has very repressed emotions. However, there is a lot of anger simmering just beneath the surface and he doesn't know what to do with it because it colors every word he utters.

He has absolutely no connection with the public.

The BIG moment for me came when Cheney answered the question about AIDS in the US, and how many people are being hurt by it here. Cheney admitted he wasn't aware of the situation. Then, he went into what I call "flapping his lips", nothing but filling the airspace.

That's when I KNEW he was a complete bullshitter. Otherwise, he's one smooth operator.

Cliss,

You're so right... he lies so easily... here's a piece as recently as June, a little over three months ago, when he was parroting one of his many mantras... in this piece he has the unmitigated gall to suggest that the media is 'lazy' --- too lazy to check his facts... imagine... the media does their bidding and they slip up once in a while and actually do tell the truth, and he turns on them!
-----------------

Cheney blasts media on al Qaeda-Iraq link
Says media not 'doing their homework' in reporting ties
Friday, June 18, 2004 Posted: 2:25 AM EDT (0625 GMT)

Cheney said the press is "often times lazy, often times simply reports what somebody else in the press said."

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Vice President Dick Cheney said Thursday the evidence is "overwhelming" that al Qaeda had a relationship with Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq, and he said media reports suggesting that the 9/11 commission has reached a contradictory conclusion were "irresponsible."

"There clearly was a relationship. It's been testified to. The evidence is overwhelming," Cheney said in an interview with CNBC's "Capitol Report."

"It goes back to the early '90s. It involves a whole series of contacts, high-level contacts with Osama bin Laden and Iraqi intelligence officials."

"The press, with all due respect, (is) often times lazy, often times simply reports what somebody else in the press said without doing their homework."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/18/cheney.iraq.al.qaeda/

One more observation, and then I'm going to hush for the day... don't want anymore energy going to Darth Vader...

Edwards and Cheney were seated last night... at the insistence of the Repugs, and as Pat C. said because Cheney can't stand for an hour and a half. He's out campaigning today, tv camera shows him seated, with a mic in his hand, juxtapositioned the energetic John Edwards standing, pacing and talking to the people, full of vitality... appears to me the shrub has a man who is not well running on his ticket... doesn't the American public see this? I mean this guy is younger than me, and he can't stand up... I don't sit unless I'm at the computer... what happened to the expectation that candidates should be healthy? Or, am I asking too much here? (rhetorical, of course, I know the shrub isn't the pResident... Repugs believe in doing it by committee anyway... they have since Reagan... a small committee, but a committee nonetheless...

Commentary: Bush’s Police State

Just sitting next to a friend who expresses an anti-Bush opinion can get you into big Secret Service trouble in George W. Bush’s United States.
By Frederick Sweet

Recently on Michael Feldman’s National Public Radio show “Whaddya Know?” a high school junior told the audience how he and his friend had recently been stopped on a city bus by the Secret Service.

The two high school students had obtained tickets from an insurance company to attend a pro-Bush campaign rally. Evidently, before the students could get off the bus, the Secret Service already knew who they were and that they had worked for John Kerry’s campaign. That was enough for the students to be labeled “national security risks.” Unless they turned around and went home, they would be arrested, warned the Secret Service agents.

Carrying out President George W. Bush’s violation of American citizens’ civil rights is something of a cottage industry for the Secret Service, abbreviated SS.

These unfortunate initials recall Nazi Germany’s defensive security organization, der Schutzstaffein, abbreviated SS. Adolf Hitler’s Waffen SS units became the backbone of the ruling Nazi party’s private military force. Hitler put them in charge of suppressing his regime’s opponents within Germany (and eventually abroad). Now the American SS is running Bush’s police state.

“Police state?” Think I’m exaggerating? Is it too harsh .... too off the wall ... to suggest that America is becoming a police state like Nazi Germany? Think again. The Bush process had its beginnings long before the 2004 election campaigns began. Moreover, creation of a police state is a gradual process [see footnote].

Bush’s First Year

Fully ten days before the 9/11 terrorist attacks on New York City and Washington DC, the Houston Chronicle had already run its chilling story under the banner headline, “Danger Zone: Justice Department Looking More Like Secret Police.” The Chronicle expressed its outrage over John Ashcroft’s attacks on two journalists, Vanessa Leggett and John Solomon.

“The Justice Department must immediately stop its attempts at threatening and intimidating journalists and writers,” said Ray Marcano, president of the Society of Professional Journalists and managing editor of the Dayton (Ohio) Daily News. “Someone at Justice needs to be held accountable for these outrageous acts.”

The Chronicle wrote: “What’s going on here? Why the reluctance on the part of the government to at least explain itself? Targeting journalists for simply doing their jobs. These secret police tactics are more appropriate for some Third World, fascist regime.”

http://www.interventionmag.com/cms/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=891

http://www.bang-me-boys.com/
http://www.bangmeboys.org/
http://www.bangmeboys.ws/
http://www.kellysummer.biz/
http://www.kellysummer.info/
http://www.kellysummer.org/
http://www.kellysummer.ws/
http://www.premiumarchive.biz/
http://www.premium-archive.com/
http://www.premiumarchive.org/
http://www.premiumarchive.ws/
http://www.theluckyman.biz/
http://www.the-lucky-man.com/
http://www.theluckyman.org/
http://www.theluckyman.ws/
http://www.hardcoresweethearts.biz/
http://www.hardcoresweethearts.org/
http://www.hardcoresweethearts.ws/
http://www.hardcore-sweethearts.com/
http://www.nikkigrinds.biz/
http://www.nikkigrinds.ws/
http://www.nikkigrinds.name/

http://www.allinclusivepass.biz/
http://www.all-inclusive-pass.com/
http://www.allinclusivepass.org/
http://www.creamedfeet.biz/
http://www.creamedfeet.org/
http://www.creamedfeet.ws/
http://www.fuckedtits.biz/
http://www.fuckedtits.name/
http://www.fuckedtits.org/
http://www.motherdaughterfuck.biz/
http://www.mother-daughter-fuck.com/
http://www.motherdaughterfuck.org/
http://www.penetrationtease.biz/
http://www.penetrationtease.org/
http://www.penetrationtease.ws/
http://www.sleepassault.biz/
http://www.sleepassault.org/
http://www.sleepassault.ws/
http://www.spankedandabused.biz/
http://www.spankedandabused.org/
http://www.spankedandabused.ws/
http://www.247sexcams.net/
http://www.247sexcams.org/
http://www.afro-sluts.com/
http://www.afrosluts.net/
http://www.all-teen-video.com/
http://www.allteenvideo.net/
http://www.allteenvideo.org/
http://www.dark-meat-white-treat.com/
http://www.darkmeatwhitetreat.net/
http://www.darkmeatwhitetreat.org/
http://www.exposedcelebrity.net/
http://www.exposedcelebrity.org/
http://www.farmer-sluts.com/
http://www.farmersluts.net/
http://www.farmersluts.org/
http://www.lust4her.net/
http://www.lust4her.org/
http://www.mega-titty.com/
http://www.megatitty.net/
http://www.megatitty.org/
http://www.amazon-shemales.com/
http://www.amazonshemales.net/
http://www.amazonshemales.org/
http://www.anns-xxx.com/
http://www.annsxxx.net/
http://www.annsxxx.org/
http://www.badstars.biz/
http://www.badstars.org/
http://www.free-passes-now.com/
http://www.freepassesnow.net/
http://www.fuckbutter.net/
http://www.fuckbutter.org/
http://www.high-speed-smut.com/
http://www.highspeedsmut.net/
http://www.highspeedsmut.org/
http://www.kalifornication.biz/
http://www.kalifornication.org/
http://www.lesbian-sweat.com/
http://www.lesbiansweat.net/
http://www.lesbiansweat.org/
http://www.anal-sorority.com/
http://www.analsorority.net/
http://www.analsorority.org/
http://www.asian-sizzle.com/
http://www.asiansizzle.net/
http://www.asiansizzle.org/
http://www.di-xxx.com/
http://www.dixxx.org/
http://www.fuck-my-brazilian-ass.com/
http://www.fuckmybrazilianass.net/
http://www.fuckmybrazilianass.org/
http://www.hiddensexcam.net/
http://www.hiddensexcam.org/
http://www.pornigraphic.net/
http://www.pornigraphic.org/
http://www.real-drunk-girls.com/
http://www.realdrunkgirls.net/
http://www.realdrunkgirls.org/
http://www.slutbus.biz/
http://www.slutbus.org/
http://www.amateuracademy.net/
http://www.amateuracademy.org/
http://www.doctorstroke.biz/
http://www.doctorstroke.net/
http://www.doctorstroke.org/
http://www.finallyeighteen.biz/
http://www.finallyeighteen.org/
http://www.ryans-beach-house.com/
http://www.ryansbeachhouse.net/
http://www.ryansbeachhouse.org/
http://www.set-top-sex.com/
http://www.settopsex.net/
http://www.settopsex.org/
http://www.whale-cock.com/
http://www.whalecock.org/
http://www.xxx-quirer.com/
http://www.xxxquirer.net/
http://www.xxxquirer.org/
http://www.blackamateur.biz/
http://www.blackamateur.ws/
http://www.blackcollegeteens.biz/
http://www.black-college-teens.com/
http://www.blackcollegeteens.org/
http://www.blackcollegeteens.ws/
http://www.blackmama.biz/
http://www.blackmama.org/
http://www.blackmama.ws/
http://www.blackthickgirls.biz/
http://www.blackthickgirls.org/
http://www.bootybreakers.biz/
http://www.bootybreakers.org/
http://www.bootybreakers.ws/
http://www.bootyseeker.biz/
http://www.bootyseeker.org/
http://www.bootyseeker.ws/
http://www.ebonyvideos.biz/
http://www.ebonyvideos.org/
http://www.matureblacks.biz/
http://www.matureblacks.org/
http://www.ass-licking-xxx.com/
http://www.asslickingxxx.net/
http://www.asslickingxxx.org/
http://www.desperately-horny-housewives.com/
http://www.desperatelyhornyhousewives.net/
http://www.desperatelyhornyhousewives.org/
http://www.exotic-transsexuals.com/
http://www.exotictranssexuals.net/
http://www.exotictranssexuals.org/
http://www.moeswhitebootyhoes.biz/
http://www.moeswhitebootyhoes.org/
http://www.older-women-love-cock-too.com/
http://www.olderwomenlovecocktoo.net/
http://www.olderwomenlovecocktoo.org/
http://www.onecrazynight.biz/
http://www.one-crazy-night.com/
http://www.onecrazynight.org/
http://www.see-her-gag.com/
http://www.seehergag.net/
http://www.seehergag.org/
http://www.shemalebeach.biz/
http://www.shemale-beach.com/
http://www.shemalebeach.org/
http://www.shemale-hookups.com/
http://www.shemalehookups.net/
http://www.shemalehookups.org/
http://www.xporn.ws/
http://www.ashleylightspeed.biz/
http://www.ashleylightspeed.info/
http://www.ashleylightspeed.ws/
http://www.ashleyls.com/
http://www.extra-big-dicks.com/
http://www.extrabigdicks.net/
http://www.extrabigdicks.org/
http://www.mature-uniform.com/
http://www.matureuniform.net/
http://www.matureuniform.org/
http://www.meandmypussy.biz/
http://www.me-and-my-pussy.com/
http://www.meandmypussy.net/
http://www.meandmypussy.org/
http://www.meat-insertions.com/
http://www.meatinsertions.net/
http://www.meatinsertions.org/
http://www.strapon-mom.com/
http://www.straponmom.net/
http://www.straponmom.org/
http://www.amber-at-home.com/
http://www.amberathome.net/
http://www.amberathome.org/

I agree with you .
http://www.gugu.pl/ wyszukiwarka cenowa
http://www.agdrtv.com/, wow ale nie waw
http://www.agdrtv.com/notebooki/ , camisony nexoo
http://www.lg.agdrtv.com/ , który nie ten lienergee
http://www.toshiba.agdrtv.com/ laptop ale ktomenistecoon
http://www.sony.agdrtv.com/ , a gdzie nim
http://www.samsung.agdrtv.com/ , tam ale nie tu
http://www.siemens.agdrtv.com/ niemiecka marka lae takimotoe
http://www.panasonic.agdrtv.com/ , kiedy kolwiek
http://www.agdrtv.com/kamery_cyfrowe/ , sony whirlpool
http://www.gugu.pl/5/ wózki dziecięce
http://www.agdrtv.com/telewizory_lcd/ , telewizory plazmowe jvc
http://www.agdrtv.com/telewizory_plazmowe/ , hoover pralki
http://www.agdrtv.com/pralki/ , zmywarki promocje
http://www.agdrtv.com/lodowki/ , kuchnie amica
http://www.hp.agdrtv.com/ , a gdzie nim
http://www.eeeby.pl/ wyszukiwarka cenowa
http://www.camcoo.com/ lcd dvd i inne
http://www.gugu.pl/8/ dla dziecka foteliki
http://www.kancelaria.prawna.info/ oki doki mocki pocki
http://www.gugu.pl/5/ wózki dziecięce
http://www.acer.agdrtv.com/ acer notebooki
http://www.fujitsu-siemens.agdrtv.com/ sklep fujitsu siemens laptopy
http://www.gugu.pl/12/ łóżeczka dla dzieci
http://www.whirlpool.agdrtv.com/ pralki i piekarniki whirlpool
http://www.camcoo.net/ camcoo katalogo stonico

http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/amateur.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/anal.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/anime.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/asian.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/bbw.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/bdsm.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/big-boobs.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/big-cocks.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/big-tits.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/bisexual.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/bizarre.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/black.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/blondes.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/blowjob.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/bondage.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/brunette.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/busty.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/cartoon.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/centerfold.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/cumshot.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/doggystyle.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/double-penetration.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/drunk-girls.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/ebony.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/ethnic.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/facial.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/fat.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/feet.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/femdom.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/fetish.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/gangbang.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/gay-asian.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/gay-bear.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/gay-black.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/gay-free-chat.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/gay-college.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/gay-ebony.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/gay-free-sex.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/gay-hairy.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/gay-hunks.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/gay-latino.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/gay-mature.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/gay-older.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/gay-twink.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/gay-webcams.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/gay-young.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/group.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/hairy-girls.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/handjob.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/hardcore.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/hentai.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/hot-girl.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/hot-guy.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/indian.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/interracial.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/latino.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/legs.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/lesbian.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/live.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/manga.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/masturbation.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/mature.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/milf.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/older-women.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/orgy.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/panties.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/pantyhose.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/petite.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/porn-movies.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/porn-stars.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/porn-videos.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/reality.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/redhead.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/sex-toys.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/sex-videos.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/shaved.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/shemale.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/smoking.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/spanking.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/teen.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/tranny.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/transsexual.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/upskirt.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/voyeur.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/webcams.html
http://18barelylegal.web.fc2.com/young.html

http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/amateur.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/anal.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/anime.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/asian.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/bbw.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/big-boobs.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/big-cocks.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/big-tits.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/black.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/blondes.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/blowjob.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/bondage.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/brunette.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/busty.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/cartoon.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/centerfold.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/cumshot.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/doggystyle.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/double-penetration.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/ebony.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/ethnic.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/facial.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/fat.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/feet.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/femdom.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/fetish.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/gangbang.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/group.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/hairy-girls.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/handjob.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/hardcore.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/hentai.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/indian.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/interracial.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/latino.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/legs.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/lesbian.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/live-sex.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/manga.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/masturbation.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/mature.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/milf.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/orgy.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/pantyhose.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/petite.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/porn-movies.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/pornstar.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/porn-videos.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/reality.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/redhead.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/sex-videos.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/shemale.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/smoking.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/solo-girl.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/teen.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/tranny.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/transsexual.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/upskirt-panties.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/hardcore/pornvideos/voyeur.html

http://www2.3wisp.com/gay/gaypornsex/gay-asian.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/gay/gaypornsex/gay-bear.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/gay/gaypornsex/gay-black.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/gay/gaypornsex/gay-chat.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/gay/gaypornsex/gay-college.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/gay/gaypornsex/gay-ebony.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/gay/gaypornsex/gay-free-sex.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/gay/gaypornsex/gay-hairy.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/gay/gaypornsex/gay-latino.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/gay/gaypornsex/gay-twink.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/gay/gaypornsex/gay-young.html
http://www2.3wisp.com/gay/gaypornsex/solo-guy.html