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I've been meaning to change the thread when it got to 250 buttttttttt life has had me by the tail dragging me in other directions this month. I will try to keep a better watch on them.

Sally Cheyne McDonald on Sep 8 | Link
Comments

Kerry and Democrats hit back the cons/repugs where
it hurts. Move on.org has an ad where Mr. Bob Mintz says he was looking for shrub in 1972 at Air National Guard base in AL and didn't find him
So this proves AWOL shrub which he has been covering up with a WHITE LIE.

Posted by: Raj on September 8, 2004 11:58 PM

That's alright Sally, you do just fine... we are all so grateful for your time and efforts... and tonight, folks, those of us who have been in the desert lo these 3+ years will have just a tad of joy... be sure and watch 60 Mins at 8:00 EST for the bit on Dubya's holey guard records... they're a sieve by now, and the light, hallalujeh, the light is shining through --- WATCH and enjoy.. will make your heart smile (as Pat C. likes to say)... oh joy, I am so happy, the networks are going to have to wake up now, if to do nothing but argue with CBS... and now for a flashback!


"I am angry that so many sons of the powerful and well placed managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. This raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to our country."
- Colin Powell, 1995

----------

So, our great mis-leader not only got a posh spot to wait out the Viet Nam war, he screwed that up! Fine, fine fellow he is... NOT...

Posted by: Jo on September 9, 2004 12:02 AM

got an email from moveon - candlelight vigils are going to be held tomorrow night for the 1,000 fallen troops:

"Tomorrow night at 8pm, we're joining with the Win Without War coalition to hold hundreds of candlelight vigils. Gathered together silently in towns across the country, we'll reflect on this terrible moment and honor the fallen. And by focusing attention on the dead, we'll help pressure our national leaders to get us out of this mess.

Can you host a vigil? It's a small commitment of time -- you just need to identify a good location and pull together some candles and printed materials for attendees. To sign up to host a vigil, go to:

http://action.moveon.org/vigil/newmeeting.html

If you can't host, we welcome everyone to attend a candlelight vigil tomorrow night. You can search for one near you at:

http://action.moveon.org/vigil/

865 soldiers have died since President Bush declared, "Mission Accomplished." And yesterday, top Pentagon officials told the New York Times that "insurgents controlled important parts of central Iraq and that it was unclear when American and Iraqi forces would be able to secure those areas." The attacks are increasing, the death toll is rising, and there's no exit strategy to get us out.

Posted by: Jo on September 9, 2004 12:14 AM

This is a test, only a test...

This is really good-

http://www.thepoorman.net/archives/003137.html

Thanks Laurie and JoannaOregon! I must warn you, you may have created a monster.

Posted by: abilene on September 9, 2004 12:27 AM

Congratulations abilene!

Here is a very valualbe source of information. Take a look.

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/apps/custom/cap/findorg.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=45294

Posted by: Pat C on September 9, 2004 12:29 AM

Shade, here is the full Bill Maher link:

http://www.hbo.com/billmaher/new_rules/

Thank you Sally for the new thread!

Posted by: abilene on September 9, 2004 12:32 AM

JOIN WITH OTHERS AT A VIGIL IN YOUR AREA TO HONOR THOSE THAT DIED BECAUSE OF BUSH AND HIS LIES!!

"AMERICANS WILL COME TOGETHER TO HONOR THE FALLEN AND DEMAND AND END TO THE WAR"

Across our nation, people will come together in public parks, at the steps of city halls, outside places of worship and at countless other community places to express our sorrow and to demand that our government level with us about how this killing will stop.

A painful milestone has been reached: 1,000 American servicemen and servicewomen have been killed as a result of our nation’s attack on Iraq. Another 7,000 young Americans have been wounded, and as many as 13,000 Iraqis have died as a result of America’s war. Without a plan to bring our troops safely home, more young men and women will have their lives ended in this tragic folly.

To find an existing vigil in your community go to:


http://action.moveon.org/vigil/selectmtg.html?zip=95126&distance=10

Posted by: KAP on September 9, 2004 12:53 AM

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0909/p13s01-sten.html?s=mesen

Oceans to acid

Call it the case of the missing "greenhouse gas." For years, scientists have been trying to figure out where carbon dioxide goes once humans generate it. Significant amounts billow into the atmosphere. But each year, atmospheric CO2 concentrations have been rising only half as fast as humans supply the gas.

The hiding place, it turns out, is the world's oceans. And the implications for marine life are troubling, researchers say. If industrial CO2 emissions continue to increase at their current rate, by the end of the century the surface waters of the world's oceans are likely to become more acidic. Though the change appears subtle, it could threaten key organisms at the base of the marine food chain and further endanger shallow-water reefs, which represent some of the most biologically productive ecosystems on the planet. The absorption of this extra carbon dioxide would induce changes in ocean chemistry not seen for at least 20 million years, some researchers say.

More....

Posted by: Pat C on September 9, 2004 12:57 AM

OOPS---lOOKS LIKE THE VIGIL WAS ALREADY POSTED---DO SIGN UP IF POSSIBLE THOUGH

Posted by: KAP on September 9, 2004 12:57 AM

To: National Desk


Contact: Naomi Seligman of Media Matters for America, 202-756-4018; Web: http://www.mediamatters.org


WASHINGTON, Sept. 8 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Media Matters for America (MMFA) has found that in the wake of the announcement that former President Bill Clinton's was to undergo heart surgery, a number of conservative radio hosts mocked were out in full-force making light of Clinton's serious condition, suggested that he would go to hell, and speculated that Clinton's surgery was a ruse to avoid campaigning for John Kerry.


On September 3 -- the very day Clinton's condition was announced -- Michael Savage wasted no time in mocking Clinton during his Savage Nation broadcast: "I understand that Bill Clinton will be getting bypass surgery. He will be with us a while longer because we understand that Hell was full -- and he will be granted a full recovery. We do know that he is getting bypass surgery, but we cannot confirm it is of the heart. It may be of another organ. You wanna tell jokes today we can tell jokes today."


Leading the pack was Rush Limbaugh - who President Bush recently called a "good friend" during an appearance on Limbaugh's show -- said during from the September 7th edition of the Rush Limbaugh Show, with the following striking commentary:


"From the "I understand it was gonna be a triple bypass, but then Clinton figured out his sympathy rating would go up to 87 percent with a quadruple. So ((laughter)) - bada-bump-buh. ((laughter))"


In contrast, President Bush told the crowd at a campaign rally on September 3rd "En route here, we just received news that President Clinton has been hospitalized in New York. He is in our thoughts and prayers. We send him our best wishes for a swift and speedy recovery."


Michael Savage chortled on September 3 edition of Savage Nation, "I understand that Bill Clinton will be getting bypass surgery. He will be with us a while longer because we understand that Hell was full-and he will be granted a full recovery. We do know that he is getting bypass surgery, but we cannot confirm it is of the heart. It may be of another organ. You wanna tell jokes today we can tell jokes today."


Mark Simone, WABC radio host and co-host of NY1's What a Week, substitute hosting on the September 6 edition of WABC's Mark Levin Show c: "Hell was full," Simone noted laimed that since the Clintons "don't want him (Kerry) to win," so Clinton's surgery "works out perfectly.," suggesting that the surgery was a ruse to avoid campaigning for Kerry.

Posted by: Pat C on September 9, 2004 01:03 AM

From the West Virginia Gazette:

Christian values and politics
Reading from the Gospel of Mark, I was struck by a saying of Jesus in his last week on earth. It happened after he left the relative safety of Galilee, where he moved primarily among the lowly, for Jerusalem, the epicenter of colonial power, religious authority and class rule in Roman Judea.

He said: "Beware of the scribes, who like to go about in long robes, and to have salutations in the marketplaces and the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation."

It struck me that Jesus often reserved his harshest words not for sinners or people who had moral lapses, but for people who made a show of religion to enhance their power, prestige, privilege and wealth.

In fact, two major no-nos where Jesus was concerned were using the display of religion for social gain and oppressing the poor. And in his day, the two were usually linked.

In Chapter 6 of Matthew, Jesus advises the faithful to practice prayer, fasting and almsgiving in private, unlike the hypocrites who loved to be seen doing such things.

Those who displayed piety and ignored justice, compassion, and mercy were compared to whited sepulchers or brightly painted tombs that conceal death and decay within.

If "Christian values" are going to be injected into public life, we should at least use the real ones.

Posted by: Pat C on September 9, 2004 01:16 AM

The Jesus Election....

http://www.alternativesmagazine.com/index.html

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 01:36 AM

The Madness of George W Bush...

http://www.awakeninthedream.com/

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 01:49 AM

Spiritual Election, A Race to the Finish

http://www.lightworks.com/MonthlyAspectarian/2004/September/feature6.htm

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 02:00 AM

Excellent wv!

Posted by: Pat C on September 9, 2004 02:16 AM

A bunch of folks have written in to ask what I thought of Dan Rather's piece on the Bush Guard story. All I can think to say is, that's what's called getting rolled by the White House.

Supposedly CBS is going to put these memos themselves up on their website later this evening. Will they ask the White House for permission?

-- Josh Marshall

Posted by: Jo on September 9, 2004 02:18 AM


A letter to GI's in Iraq....

http://www.viewzone.com/soldiers.html

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 02:37 AM

Hi Everyone,
I would have responded earlier, but I was talking with my son who is at college, and as much as I love this site,that comes first.
Thanks to all for the recommended reading list.
I can see that I have some late nights and lots of reading ahead of me.
Bear with me, I am just at the beginning of my journey -- although I am a quick study if I really like something.
Just scanned the latest posts. What do folks think of tonight's 60 mins?
Could this be something that will give Bush (actually my husband and I refer to him as 'bottomfeeder')some headaches?
Just interest in other people's thoughts.
Thanks again,

Posted by: Tennessee on September 9, 2004 02:39 AM

Please all (and I do love all of you! Excellent stuff every single day! I've understood astrology for 30+ years but I continue to learn from all these posts and know that I'm still a student -and if you must know, I have a Libran stellium with Cancer rising, so I'm deeply conflicted these days) - I'd like to offer a suggestion. Can we agree that C-SPAN should be used as a critical focal point? If you can have more than one media at a time (as I am presently blessed to have), this should be your TV viewing anchor. I'm watching it now - there's no one there, but some very powerful (and constructive) things are being said. Shouldn't we be advocating some of these issues?

Posted by: annkats on September 9, 2004 02:46 AM


HEROES AND VILLAINS: REFRAMING THE 2004 RACE

By Arianna Huffington

John Kerry is suddenly being bombarded with more advice than an obese,
alcoholic, unwed teenage mother seated between Dr. Laura and Dr. Phil on a
cross-country bus trip.

Spurred by Bush's convention bounce, jittery Democrats of every stripe --
including a hospital-bound Bill Clinton -- are urging him to "throw
caution to the wind," "start smacking back," "hammer home jobs, the
economy, health care and education," and concentrate on domestic issues.

So the party faithful have gone from expecting John Kerry to beat George
Bush by outmachoing the counterfeit cowboy from Crawford to expecting him
to win by offering a better Medicare plan.

The truth is neither of these strategies addresses the greatest challenge
facing the Kerry camp: the need to change the frame in which the campaign
is conducted -- a frame thus far constructed by Karl Rove and the
Bush/Cheney brain trust.

A new poll by CNN/USA Today/Gallup makes it clear that, unlike 2000,
issues are not driving this year's election. Voters are more concerned
with leadership skills than the candidates' issue-by-issue positions.

There is no doubt that Kerry wins on the issues. Indeed, among the
minority of voters making their decision based on the issues, Kerry has a
20-point lead. But Bush has opened a 20-point lead among the majority
that's focused on leadership.

Of course, leadership is about more than "a spine of tempered steel".
It's about character, values, priorities, and a clear vision of where the
country should be heading. So Kerry needs to offer a compelling,
overarching narrative tying his strength -- and Bush's weakness -- on
issues like jobs, the economy, the environment, and health care to his
vision for America's future.

Thankfully -- and ironically -- during its convention, the Bush/Cheney
team delivered the very narrative that can defeat it. It was offered to
Kerry on a platter in Madison Square Garden when speaker after speaker
relentlessly and shamelessly ridiculed the undeniable reality that we are
two Americas, separated by an ever-widening gulf -- not just in income but
in educational opportunities, access to health care, and the ability to
realize the American Dream.

Rudy Giuliani and Dick Cheney even went so far as to use the notion of two
Americas as the set up for jokes.

"Senator Kerry says he sees two Americas," said Cheney. "It makes the
whole thing mutual. America sees two John Kerrys." And according to
Giuliani, Democrats need "two Americas -- one where John Kerry can vote
for something and another where he can vote against the same thing."
Hardee-har-har.

It's worth noting that this frivolity at the expense of the Other America
came just days after the release of a devastating report from the Census
Bureau showing that over 12 percent of the American people -- 35.9
million, 12.9 million of them children -- now live below the poverty line,
and that the number of Americans with no health insurance has increased by
5.8 million under Bush, bringing the total to 45 million. Pretty funny,
eh boys?

And the growing chasm between the Two Americas is chillingly documented in
a report released this week by the Economic Policy Institute which shows
how over the last few years "income shifted extremely rapidly and
extensively from labor compensation to capital income (profits and
interest)." As Jared Bernstein, co-author of the report, put it: "The
economic pie is growing gangbusters and the typical household is falling
behind."

And yet Arnold Schwarzenegger had the gall to tell us at the convention
that "America is back!" The fact that the Republicans chose not only to
render the increasing pain of increasing millions invisible but to use it
as a punchline tells you all you need to know about the current mindset of
the Grand Old Party. And, even more importantly, it offers an
unparalleled opportunity for the Kerry campaign to stop defending itself
against the flip-flopping caricature of Kerry that Rove has created and
start defining who George Bush really is -- a callous leader whose
regressive policies have made America a crueler and more dangerous place.

The Two Americas narrative shows that, far from providing strong
leadership, Bush has turned his back on the traditional American values of
fairness, opportunity, and responsibility.

What's more, it's impossible to talk about the reality of the Two Americas
without talking about Bush's miserable failures in Iraq, as Kerry did on
Labor Day, pointing out to a crowd in Cleveland that this "wrong war in
the wrong place at the wrong time. cost all of you $200 billion that could
have gone to schools, could have gone to health care, could have gone to
prescription drugs, could have gone to our Social Security."

It's the Other America that's paying this cost in forgone opportunities
and investments. And it's the Other America that's also paying the
highest price of all in lost lives and maimed bodies. There are precious
few denizens of Bush's America slogging through the bloody streets of
Najaf and Fallujah -- other than the occasional Halliburton executive,
there to check on the company's investment in democracy.

It was a great relief to hear Kerry slam Bush on Iraq, and ignore the
siren song of those advising him to cede the foreign policy front to the
president and stick to domestic issues. This, of course, is the same
strategy Democrats followed in 2002, when they went along with Bush on
Iraq in the hope they could take it off the table as a campaign issue and
win on the economy. And we all remember how well that turned out. For
the GOP.

The storyline of this campaign is really about heroes and villains. John
Kerry and John Edwards are running because they are committed to the most
important and heroic task facing our country: the building of one
indivisible nation. They desperately want to make us one America. Bush
and Cheney are running so they can continue to make life easier, plusher,
and more privileged for the only America they choose to see. To succeed,
they have to convince enough people between now and Election Day that the
Other America is somehow a pessimistic figment of the Democratic
imagination.

The people who flock to John Kerry's rallies know the truth. People like
Lori Sheldon, a 45-year old mother of two who approached Kerry at a Labor
Day rally in Canonsburg, Pennsylvania where he spoke of the struggle of
middle-class Americans no longer even trying to get ahead but just to hang
on.

"You told our story," she said, sobbing. Sheldon's husband is a baggage
handler for financially strapped US Airways and faces being laid off this
fall. So her story is the story of one more family the Republican
convention had no time for, living paycheck to paycheck, in fear of losing
it all.

This is the voice of the Other America. And no matter how vehemently and
blithely the president and his surrogates insist that it doesn't exist, it
does. And if John Kerry continues to tell its story, amplify its voice,
and give the Other America a reason to turn out in November, he'll win in
a landslide.

© 2004 ARIANNA HUFFINGTON.
http://www.ariannaonline.com/blog/

---

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 02:54 AM


Bill Moyers to do show on 9/11

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/printer_090904L.shtml

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 03:07 AM


Sidney Blumenthal - Bush's Turn to Squirm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5011452-112564,00.html

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 03:24 AM

This says it straight to the point:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040913fa_fact

Al Gore, Sun in Aries

“I wasn’t surprised by Bush’s economic policies, but I was surprised by the foreign policy, and I think he was, too,” Gore told me. “The real distinction of this Presidency is that, at its core, he is a very weak man. He projects himself as incredibly strong, but behind closed doors he is incapable of saying no to his biggest financial supporters and his coalition in the Oval Office. He’s been shockingly malleable to Cheney and Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz and the whole New American Century bunch. He was rolled in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. He was too weak to resist it.

“I’m not of the school that questions his intelligence,” Gore went on. “There are different kinds of intelligence, and it’s arrogant for a person with one kind of intelligence to question someone with another kind. He certainly is a master at some things, and he has a following. He seeks strength in simplicity. But, in today’s world, that’s often a problem. I don’t think that he’s weak intellectually. I think that he is incurious. It’s astonishing to me that he’d spend an hour with his incoming Secretary of the Treasury and not ask him a single question. But I think his weakness is a moral weakness. I think he is a bully, and, like all bullies, he’s a coward when confronted with a force that he’s fearful of. His reaction to the extravagant and unbelievably selfish wish list of the wealthy interest groups that put him in the White House is obsequious. The degree of obsequiousness that is involved in saying ‘yes, yes, yes, yes, yes’ to whatever these people want, no matter the damage and harm done to the nation as a whole—that can come only from genuine moral cowardice. I don’t see any other explanation for it, because it’s not a question of principle. The only common denominator is each of the groups has a lot of money that they’re willing to put in service to his political fortunes and their ferocious and unyielding pursuit of public policies that benefit them at the expense of the nation.”

Posted by: Shade on September 9, 2004 04:20 AM

Wow, and what exactly were you expecting from a man who was beaten by Bush in 2000? I'll give him kudos for not attacking the President's intelligence like so many ignorant liberals, but I still think Gore is off base when he says the President is a bully. If anything, the actions of Daschle and these fillibusters are bullies abusing a system they were never meant to abuse.

Posted by: Joe on September 9, 2004 04:24 AM

Another interesting thing is to see the Kerry campaign pumping money into the Texans for Truth movement. The very dispicable activities that John Kerry was so vehemently against he now appears to be pumping up and joining the fray of. I guess now, since John Kerry's campaign is doing these sorts of activities it will not be fair to say that these things are okay to do? Perhaps previously I could have maybe seen, in the slightest bit, a higher moral ground for John Kerry but he has now lost any right to make such claims after he stooped as low as he has now.

Posted by: Joe on September 9, 2004 04:32 AM

Texans for Truth is an independent 527 group, probably a truly independent group unlike the Vietnam Veterans for "truth" which had clear connections to the Bush campaign.

Posted by: Lawrence the LEO on September 9, 2004 04:45 AM

Oh sure Texans for Truth is independent. Just like moveon.org is too, right? What a load of bull. If Vietnam veterans for truth is associated with President Bush, then the same goes for Texans for Truth and moveon.org for Kerry. Well, that is, unless you are going to stand by the claim that neither are associated with their respective political parties, which in that case would much more likely to the truth.

Posted by: Joe on September 9, 2004 04:49 AM

Hmmm... Drudge has posted a story on the Iraqi death toll:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040908/D84VORE00.html

Posted by: mars on September 9, 2004 04:54 AM

I wish this that al of this brilliant stuff, like Al Gore's New Yorker interview, Sydney Blumenthal's Guardian articles, Michael Moore's website comments, as well as Bill Maher's, could be conveyed to the people who don't necessarily access these media, as they are the ones that need to hear it the most. The best I can do is distribute the links and articles by email every day in the hopes that they will be spread around. I try to pace myself as there's no way those my distribution list will read this stuff if I send it all in one day. I hope the rest of you are doing the same.

Thanks for the great posts everyone and the links to the superb articles, wv & all.

Posted by: on September 9, 2004 05:03 AM

Man, this site all of a sudden is filling up with horse flies. Anybody notice that? Also, am I detecting a certain smell?

Here's a great article for you all to read:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040913fa_fact

Posted by: shylurker on September 9, 2004 05:07 AM

Oops! Sorry. I just saw that the New Yorker link has already been posted.

Posted by: shylurker on September 9, 2004 05:09 AM

Letter from Howard Dean -

Last Thursday at their hate-filled convention, Washington Republicans held a so-called "Daschle Retirement Party" where corporate elites wrote checks to take down our party's leader in the Senate, Tom Daschle.

The invitation went out from George Allen, the right-wing Senator who once told Republicans at a state convention that their job was not just to beat Democrats but to "kick their soft teeth down their whiny throats". They're taking that money and putting their hate on the air in South Dakota. This week they launched a $2.4 million smear campaign - that's more than $9.00 for every voter in the last election there.

Tom Daschle is a good man and a good Senator. And the flood of negativity into his race demonstrates that the national Republican Party has come unhinged. We have a responsibility to stand with him - and against this kind of politics once and for all:

https://www.tomdaschle.com/contribute/

Extremists like Allen only thrive politically when they have someone to hate. The need to hate is so strong that one of the groups that has attacked Daschle, the so-called Club for Growth, even attacks other Republicans who don't support its plan to bankrupt our country.

I am tired of crackpots with corporate backers polluting the airwaves. Ads like these make people with real problems tune out from politics. People quickly believe that our political process cannot produce serious solutions to our common problems. And if we let people like George Allen and the Club for Growth win, those people will be right.

We cannot allow them to win. Join me in supporting Tom Daschle now:

https://www.tomdaschle.com/contribute/

When Tom Daschle is sworn in as the new Senate Majority Leader in January he will have prevailed against one of the most negative campaigns in history. Only then will the fringe GOP leadership lose its grip on the Republican Party. And only then will we be able to balance the budget, ensure that everyone has health care, and restore America's moral leadership in the world.

Your contribution now is a stand against these tactics not only in South Dakota but everywhere:

https://www.tomdaschle.com/contribute/

Thank you.

Governor Howard Dean, M.D.

Paid for by Democracy for America, www.democracyforamerica.com,
and authorized by A Lot of People Supporting Tom Daschle Committee. Contributions to Democracy for America
are not deductible for federal income tax purposes.

By the way, we are going either pick up from Kerry headquarters or order on our own something like 50 Kerry-Edwards plastic lawn signs at 1.25 ea. (www.Kerrymart.com), as well as buttons and bumper stickers (also can be ordered from www.kerrygear.com) to hand out to those who really want them, especially in our neighborhood. We know who the Democrats are and they seem to be suffering from a lack of Kerry stuff. Now is the time to proudly support Kerry-Edwards in an in-your-face kind of way.

Posted by: Sharon Katz on September 9, 2004 05:24 AM

I read it here, on astroworld, that Dean has very nice aspects or transits on November 2 - 3. I hope so. He is working tirelessly at transformation in the short- and long-run. And do we need that! You go Ho Ho!

Posted by: shylurker on September 9, 2004 05:30 AM


CHENEY SPITS TOADS
By: Maureen Dowd

George W. Bush and Dick Cheney have always used the president's father as a reverse lodestar. In 1992, the senior Mr. Bush wooed the voters with "Message: I care.'' So this week, Mr. Cheney wooed the voters with, Message: You die.

The terrible beauty of its simplicity grows on you. It is a sign of the dark, macho, paranoid vice president's restraint that he didn't really take it to its emotionally satisfying conclusion: Message: Vote for us or we'll kill you.

Without Zell Miller around to out-crazy him, and unplugged after a convention that tried to "humanize'' him with grandchildren, horses and wifely anecdotes about his inability to dance the twist, Mr. Cheney is back as Terrifier in Chief.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/09/opinion/09dowd.html?ex=1095703645&ei=1&en=e44a111baa9e01c4

Posted by: KAP on September 9, 2004 05:51 AM

I just want to comment on MoveOn.org....I am sure all you good people are aware of it, it started here in SF Bay Area 1998 I think, out of the frustration of a couple over the impeachment/Ken Starr proceedings.....Then since they had such an incredible response, they decided to start supporting candidates across the country who were running against the very people who had promoted Clinton's impeachment (I gave to this first campaign)....they continued on in this way. In case anyone is inclined to believe that MoveOn is not independent.....it is an organization which has integrity in its purpose of exposing the lies and corruption of many politicians and has done a decent job of defeating some of them, too....especially the most savage and nasty of those rightwingers.

Posted by: judi on September 9, 2004 06:06 AM

Right on! To MoveOn! Berkeley-based, natch.

Posted by: shylurker on September 9, 2004 06:12 AM

Straight from the mouth of evil

"As people do better, they start voting like Republicans... unless they have too much education and vote Democratic, which proves there can be too much of a good thing."

Karl Rove

Posted by: on September 9, 2004 06:15 AM

Thanks for posting the MediaMatters report on the talk show hosts making fun of Clinton's health matters....and also the Al Gore New Yorker article....which is what made me remember what Rush Fatbaughhead said post election: (I didn't hear it, I heard a man call in on a nationally broadcast NPR show and report that he had just heard it)....whereby Rush says about Gore (paraphrazing, it was 4 years ago):

You know Gore lives in Carthage, Tennessee. I think what the Romans did to Carthage should be done to Gore's Carthage: kill all the men, rape the women and pour salt on all the fields so they will be fallow....

Posted by: judi on September 9, 2004 06:22 AM

Not sure if this is happening to anyone else, but I had to repost security codes 4 times....and two of the four times, the codes were obviously invalid because they had 5 numbers in them. Anyone else having this problem?

Posted by: judi on September 9, 2004 06:23 AM

it's time for the big ugly...the universe responds to *h and the rest of his crowd. the avalanche is building and the fraud is harder to maintain. john zogby, a pollster with integrity, was so weirded out by the newsweek & time polls, he called both up to ask about their methodology. time wouldn't talk but newsweek shared. he then wrote an article basically acusing them of 'polling ignorance' and said their sample was wrong. on a lager stage, the smut is eruputing from new and old sources. what will american's say when all those questions are posed about the bushes? i'm of the strong opinion (and i'd be interested in the new moon chart morganna) that people will sit back, absorb it and say 'he had it coming to him.' which of course he does.

as oliver stone had nixon say in his movie, 'we're beyond politics now.' it's a drama that according to chas we've already experienced (god i like that notion); but one that will thrill and excite. i think nancy waterman is right...*h is in for a huge melt down. quelle domage!

n.b. shylurker, what's this that guido is telling me about a joint appearance he has with ouida may on the montel show on 9/19?

Posted by: mike on September 9, 2004 06:35 AM

Oh my gosh, a new thread, and already 40 comments!! Great links and ever-so-interesting comments from all. I just ran my solar chart for this year and there's an exact Jupiter/Sun conjunction!! I hope that's good news and I'm not gonna get fat!! lol! I watched 60 Minutes and it was terrific. This gap of service is gonna have legs.

Astrology of September
by Henry Seltzer
http://www.astrograph.com/sunsigns.php

In the current month, besides the Mercury retrograde that is passing, the big news is the Virgo New Moon of Tuesday September 14th, which conjuncts Mars and squares Pluto. Pluto has recently stationed, changing its direction into forward motion, and is therefore moving slowly right now and stronger in its placement. Also Pluto semi-sextiles and almost exactly parallels Chiron, about thirty degrees away at 20 + degrees of Capricorn. Thus these two planetary symbols of deep soul-level connection with our inner depths are powerfully linked at this time. The Mars - Pluto Square that is highlighted by the New Moon is another potent indicator of our desire nature, where we are compulsively attached, and where tension may arise, and where we may find our underlying drives of passion or suppressed rage potentially rising to the surface.

This New Moon is also exactly conjuncts Neptune ( see chart) in the ninth house of the U.S. chart, ruling oil, as well as deception and media hype. We may see acres of spin coming down the pike as this New Moon cycle plays itself out, leading up to the Libra Solar Eclipse of October 13th. On the other hand, perhaps it is time for the high-minded spiritual approach represented by the American ideal to come to life.

-much more-

Posted by: Laurie on September 9, 2004 09:46 AM

To all the DU'ers in here, here's an interesting thread to watch over the next few weeks regarding Kitty Kelley’s “The Family”– The Inside Scoop, Part 1:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x72604

Posted by: Laurie on September 9, 2004 09:53 AM


Earth Changes Bulletin...

Go">http://www.michaelmandeville.com/earthmonitor/ecbulletins/2004/ecb_Sept_8_04.htm#synopsis>Go

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 12:07 PM


Interesting take on things..

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040909/COKLEIN09/TPComment/TopStories

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 12:48 PM

This explains alot, sadly. Since we are about to have the new moon stellium conjunct US Neptune....

A Mythic Reality
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Published: September 7, 2004

The best book I've read about America after 9/11 isn't about either America or 9/11. It's "War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning," an essay on the psychology of war by Chris Hedges, a veteran war correspondent. Better than any poll analysis or focus group, it explains why President Bush, despite policy failures at home and abroad, is ahead in the polls.

War, Mr. Hedges says, plays to some fundamental urges. "Lurking beneath the surface of every society, including ours," he says, "is the passionate yearning for a nationalist cause that exalts us, the kind that war alone is able to deliver." When war psychology takes hold, the public believes, temporarily, in a "mythic reality" in which our nation is purely good, our enemies are purely evil, and anyone who isn't our ally is our enemy.

This state of mind works greatly to the benefit of those in power.

One striking part of the book describes Argentina's reaction to the 1982 Falklands war. Gen. Leopoldo Galtieri, the leader of the country's military junta, cynically launched that war to distract the public from the failure of his economic policies. It worked: "The junta, which had been on the verge of collapse" just before the war, "instantly became the saviors of the country."

The point is that once war psychology takes hold, the public desperately wants to believe in its leadership, and ascribes heroic qualities to even the least deserving ruler. National adulation for the junta ended only after a humiliating military defeat.

George W. Bush isn't General Galtieri: America really was attacked on 9/11, and any president would have followed up with a counterstrike against the Taliban. Yet the Bush administration, like the Argentine junta, derived enormous political benefit from the impulse of a nation at war to rally around its leader.

Another president might have refrained from exploiting that surge of support for partisan gain; Mr. Bush didn't.

And his administration has sought to perpetuate the war psychology that makes such exploitation possible.

Step by step, the fight against Al Qaeda became a universal "war on terror," then a confrontation with the "axis of evil," then a war against all evil everywhere. Nobody knows where it all ends.

What is clear is that whenever political debate turns to Mr. Bush's actual record in office, his popularity sinks. Only by doing whatever it takes to change the subject to the war on terror - not to what he's actually doing about terrorist threats, but to his "leadership," whatever that means - can he get a bump in the polls.

Last week's convention made it clear that Mr. Bush intends to use what's left of his heroic image to win the election, and early polls suggest that the strategy may be working. What can John Kerry do?

Campaigning exclusively on domestic issues won't work. Mr. Bush must be held to account for his dismal record on jobs, health care and the environment. But as Mr. Hedges writes, when war psychology makes a public yearn to believe in its leaders, "there is little that logic or fact or truth can do to alter the experience."

To win, the Kerry campaign has to convince a significant number of voters that the self-proclaimed "war president" isn't an effective war leader - he only plays one on TV.

This charge has the virtue of being true. It's hard to find a nonpartisan national security analyst with a good word for the Bush administration's foreign policy. Iraq, in particular, is a slow-motion disaster brought on by wishful thinking, cronyism and epic incompetence.

If I were running the Kerry campaign, I'd remind people frequently about Mr. Bush's flight-suit photo-op, when he declared the end of major combat. In fact, the war goes on unabated. News coverage of Iraq dropped off sharply after the supposed transfer of sovereignty on June 28, but as many American soldiers have died since the transfer as in the original invasion.

And I'd point out that while Mr. Bush spared no effort preparing for his carrier landing - he even received underwater survival training in the White House pool - he didn't prepare for things that actually mattered, like securing and rebuilding Iraq after Baghdad fell.

Will it work? I don't know. But to win, Mr. Kerry must try to puncture the myth that Mr. Bush's handlers have so assiduously created.

Posted by: Shade on September 9, 2004 01:36 PM


more John Pilger

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6874.htm

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 01:39 PM

Regarding Al Gore, I remember back in 2000 being frustrated by the fact that both candidates had the Leo Asc. Not only that, GWB has the Sun/Neptune square and Al Gore has the Sun/Neptune opposition.

Since reading the complete New Yorker article, one cannot help but come away from it understanding one thing. Al Gore was/is willing to "sacrifice" his own gains for this country. George W Bush is only able to "sacrifice" this country for his own gains.

Posted by: Shade on September 9, 2004 01:43 PM

Good morning excellent Astroworld!!

Ah Shade! That's oh SO true! Thanks for saying it so well.

Posted by: Pat C on September 9, 2004 02:17 PM


Democratic Elites Eye Profits, Not Wins...

http://www.observer.com/pages/conason.asp

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 02:21 PM

This administration is all about 'psyc ops' --- manipulation is their standard MO --- 'you can't fool all of the people all of the time, but you can fool some of the people some of the time' is their game plan...

The entire country is their 'lab'... unfortunately many people are simply not able to discern fact from fiction --- either because they have neither the tools nor the time to find the truth, or any facts contrary to their 'mindset' would bring down their 'house of cards' ---

The method employed by this insidious group has been to tie Dubya to their 'god' so that any effort to discredit Dubya is immediately cast aside ---

Remember the political climate in this country when Clinton beat Bush I? Bush supporters were not happy campers... they trashed Clinton from the get-go... I expect the same, with greater venom to occur when Kerry wins...

As Sally has stated and so many others throughout the country repeat over and over, we must put Progressives and Dems in the Senate and House and in the gov mansions...

Additionally, we must excise the liars in the media --- the pundits at Faux Noos, etc.

If you're interested in boycotts --- here's a link that will provide names of sponsors of Fox -
with another link for info on Clear Channel

http://www.debone.com/boycottFoxNewsSponsors.html
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/radiogaga.html

Best way to fight Faux News and CNN or any others is simply to turn them 'off'...

The country is definitely polarized... however, I don't see it as 'they're for Bush' and we're for Kerry... I see it as Bush and his minions have screwed the people of this country and the planet and the clearest path for the people to keep their power and diminish theirs is at the moment Kerry and more Progressives and Democrats in the Senate and House. Meanwhile, those of us who are 'awake' have to work to bring light to those who slumber... Bringing light means having to move into the darkness...

When Kerry wins in November, much work will remain to be done... consciousness is rising and we must do our part. Let your light shine ---

The following gives me much solace and so I share in the hope it brings comfort to you...

"Ours is not the task of fixing the entire world all at once, but of stretching out to mend the part of the world that is within our reach.

Any small, calm thing that one soul can do to help another soul, to assist some portion of this poor suffering world, will help immensely. It is not given to us to know which acts or by whom, will cause the critical mass to tip toward an enduring good. What is needed for dramatic change is an accumulation of acts, adding,
adding to, adding more, continuing. We know that it does not take "everyone on Earth" to bring justice and peace, but only a small, determined group who will not give up during the first, second, or hundredth gale."

excerpt from:
Clarissa Pinkola Estes, Ph.D.: Letter to a Young Activist During Troubled Times

Posted by: Jo on September 9, 2004 02:34 PM

Re link above
Democratic Elites Eye Profits, Not Wins...

It never ceases to amaze me that the 'pundits', Monday morning quarterbacks, whatever, always have a 'theory' --- and a poli sci mentor or idol... none of whom never ventured out of their ivory tower to actually see how things work... they merely toss out their intelligensia of the day...

Joe Conason speculates alot, but politics is not a spectator sport... simply bashing Democrats for not getting down and dirty like the Repugs is not going to cut it [see his critique of why the Dems lost in LA --- we know now they lost to touch screen voting machines in 2002] nor is accusing the Dems of being elitists... LOL

Knocked on any doors lately, Joe C.? Done any poll watching? Nope, just sit at the old keyboard, right? Thought so...

I swan it's so dark in this country, you can't tell the good guys from the bad guys anymore! Maybe because there's so much shadow play going on, right?

Posted by: Jo on September 9, 2004 02:58 PM

HELP: I've sent this to our local news stations. Anyone who wants to please participate and email it to people you know who may also want to join in.

RE: HURRICANE IVAN.

There are so many people who believe in the power of prayer, meditation, focused intention, etc. who don't have a coordinated way to come together to do so.There is so much fear and anxiety. How about giving those who want to an opportunity to do the following.

How about reading this on the air several times for the next several days (AND POSTING IT ON YOUR WEBSITE AS WELL.) It certainly can't hurt and may help by giving people who choose to a way to do something:

HERE'S A SUGGESTION FROM ONE OF OUR VIEWERS FOR A HURRICANE VIGIL FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO PARTICIPATE:

WHENEVER YOU CAN, AND AS OFTEN AS YOU CAN THROUGOUT THE DAY. (WHEN POSSIBLE, AT THE TOP OF THE HOUR), TAKE ONE MINUTE TO STOP, CLOSE YOUR EYES, TAKE A FEW DEEP BREATHS, FOCUS,SAY THE FOLLOWING AND VISUALIZE IT HAPPENING NO MATTER WHAT YOU HEAR THE NEWS MEDIA SAYING.

"HURRICANE IVAN IS NOW DOWNGRADED TO A TROPICAL STORM. IT IS DISSIPATING AND DISSOLVING INTO NOTHING."

Posted by: JAYCEE on September 9, 2004 03:01 PM


This will work better for the Mandville column

http://www.michaelmandeville.com/earthmonitor/ecbulletins/2004/ecb_Sept_8_04.htm#synopsis

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 03:04 PM


Fiore's latest...

http://www.sfgate.com/comics/fiore/

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 06:03 PM


Harley Sorsensen is at it again...right on!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/09/06/hsorensen.DTL&type=printable

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 06:14 PM

Are Smirky's military records important to you?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3096434/

Posted by: shylurker on September 9, 2004 06:21 PM


The view from the Left Coast...

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/09/09/DDGIJ7PTK31.DTL&type=printable

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 06:25 PM


Byrd's Eye View - my senator is speaking up
is yours? If not are you telling S/he to get with
the program....

http://www.counterpunch.org/ramakrishnan09082004.html

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 06:37 PM


Ashcroft and White House suppressing Israel
spy investigation..

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/344aa23c-0103-11d9-9d96-00000e2511c8.html

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 07:22 PM

Laurie,
The 13th is a VOC moon. I find that a bit eerie right before this New Moon. The idea of it being totally dark and nothing is moving. Just like in the movies where a unsuspecting person walks into a completely quiet, dark room filled with monsters! Except in this case the public is the unsuspecting person and the monsters are the true nature of the creatures of the Bush regime.
Of course, thanks to the brilliant astrologers on this site, we won't be *too* shocked at what comes out next week! ;-)

Posted by: Jill G on September 9, 2004 07:27 PM

Risks ahead for the World Economy

http://www.economist.com/finance/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3172404

Posted by: wv on September 9, 2004 07:30 PM

Not that I want to understand a total idiotic garbage FOOL of nth dimension, but I never understand these cons and repugs. They squeal worse than a rotten rat, when we do unto them, what they always do unto others like us. See them squeal now after yesterday's 60 minutes about all the revelations of AWOL,bribery,corruption of shrub, his corrupt father and family etc. but when
Kerry and Democrats compained about their rotten
false and full of WHITE LIES from their surrogates
swiftboat garbage, they looked the other way and never came forwrd top condemn those rubbish ads!

Posted by: Raj on September 9, 2004 07:57 PM

Raj...they squeal worse than a rotten rat. I love that! All the wonderful words which form pictures when we are frustrated are appreciated here!

Often people say that there is no such thing as karma because bad people often don't look as if they are punished in this life....maybe so, but I think in the coming few months some rats will squeal. I hope a lot of them get "bopped" good....but this is alot bigger than individual karma now.....it is group karma, and when people realize how important it is to decide which side we need to come down on, it will be instructive, entertaining, and hopefully, positive....

Posted by: judi on September 9, 2004 08:11 PM

not to change the subject, but i did bring up the subject of merc retrograde
when we first heard about Hurricane charley
when Frances hit, merc was at its station
so now Ivan is the third pass of the nasty thing. is that scary or what?
Merc rx not a good time for a hurricane?

Posted by: mimi on September 9, 2004 08:12 PM

It is 12:15 pm PDT.....here are the MSNBC poll results (from the link back a few messages) currently....which reflect the world wide election polling, too...same percentages....

Does President Bush's military service record matter to you?   * 79530 responses
Yes
62%
No
38%
Thank you for voting. Click here for some background, and send us an e-mail to share your thoughts. Plus, see past voting results.

Posted by: judi on September 9, 2004 08:16 PM

I skimmed the New Yorker article (can't wait until fortune shines and I can actually AFFORD to subscribe) on Al Gore....they've written really good articles on him before....and it strengthens my intuitive belief that his political life path was for his dad and not for him, but in the true sense that we all learn and grow and use what we know, he is going to make use of all of it.....and maybe have even more impact on America and the world in the end than he might have as president.

I worked with an intuitive counselor for 3 years....she said (before the election in 2000) that I would not like the energy which was coming, but that it was NECESSARY....I can see why now. One must SEE before one can ACT. Nothing like visible corruption to shake the foundations...

Posted by: judi on September 9, 2004 08:21 PM

Thanks Judi.I voted on that shrub military record about 30 mins. ago and the numbers were what you have posted. By the way, mark fiore is just hilarious on the post by wv. It is a MUST for everyone HERE.

Posted by: Raj on September 9, 2004 08:39 PM

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/253/wash/_To_National_Desk_Defense_Corr:.shtml


Daniel Ellsberg, joined today by 10 former employees of the FBI, CIA, State and Defense Departments, issued a call to current government officials to disclose classified information that is being wrongly withheld, about plans for and estimated costs of the war in Iraq, and other documents that contradict government lies (part 2 of 2):

Twelve Examples of Existing Documents That Deserve Unauthorized Disclosure:

Each of these-wrongly withheld up till now -- could and should be released almost in their entirety, perhaps with minor deletions for genuine security reasons. (In many cases, official promises to release declassified versions have not been honored.)

1. Reports by International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) on Guantanamo, Abu Ghrab and other prisons (ships, prisons in other countries) that hold prisoners from the ''war on terrorism''. (These reports have been provided to the US government but have not been made public.)

2. 28 pages redacted from the report of the Joint House-Senate Inquiry on Intelligence Activities before and after 9/11, concerning the ties between the 9/11 terrorists and the government of Saudi Arabia.

3. 800 pages of the United Nations Report on Weapons of Mass Destruction that were taken by the United States during unauthorized Xeroxing and never given to the Security Council members. (The original report was 1200 pages in length but has never been published in its entirety)

4. Membership, advisors, consultants to Vice President Cheney's Energy Task Force, and any minutes from meetings (January - December, 2001).

5. Documents and photographs concerning/produced by military doctors or medical personnel that document abuses toward prisoners condoned by medical personnel.

6. Documents produced by military lawyers and legal staff that challenge the political policy makers decision to undercut the Geneva Conventions and any other extra-legal procedures.

7. The missing sections of the US Army General Taguba report on prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan.

8. Department of Justice-Inspector General (DOJ-IG) Report: RE: Sibel Edmonds vs. FBI, completed, classified

9. DOJ-IG Report: RE: FBI Translation Department (security breaches, intentional mistranslations, espionage charges), completed, classified

10. DOJ-IG Report: RE:FBI & Foreknowledge of 9/11, completed, classified

11. Full staff backup to General Shinseki's 2002 estimate that ''several hundred thousand troops'' would be required for effective occupation of Iraq.

12. The full 2002 State Department studies on requirements for the postwar occupation and restoration of civil government in Iraq.

http://www.usnewswire.com

Posted by: Pat C on September 9, 2004 08:39 PM

Ignore his picture (he resembles Kerouac/James Dean) but do read this article on the neocons & Israel. This issue is major. And what in the world is up with Nancy Pelosi?

http://antiwar.com/justin/


Mike: Montel? The 19th? Is that why I haven't heard from Ouida May in days and days? Well, at least it's not Jerry Springer.

Posted by: shylurker on September 9, 2004 08:44 PM

Raj, after looking at WV's posting of Mark Fiore's cartoon (it is the SF Chronicle's website) I see a connection to the rats...!

Posted by: judi on September 9, 2004 08:44 PM

Sally, or anyone else, do you know what's up with Claudia Dikinis? I know she posts a little on her website now and again but I'm missing her absolutely kick-ass articles! I would love to know her take on the current situation.

Posted by: Laurie on September 9, 2004 08:45 PM

Remember the ayotallahs here-falwell,robertson etal saying that 9-11 happened because of the sinners here etal all that junk from the ayotallah
But now Ivan appraoching FL, where all the sinning
took place in 2000 by the corrupt shrub families
with the aid of ayotallahs-falwell,robertson gang,
these evangelists are not talking about the sins by those governing FL, now that GOD'fury has no limits in FL for the past 4 weeks!

Posted by: on September 9, 2004 08:46 PM

That's funny Judi, I too see the connection NOW!

Posted by: Raj on September 9, 2004 08:48 PM

This is from the Earthwatch web site which WV posted up line...

STAND PAT – See Earth Changes Bulletin Update As Of July 7 2004
 
THE WORLD AWAITS THE DEPARTURE OF THE BUSH REGIME. 
 
IT IS HIGHLY LIKELY THAT THE MOST DECISIVE AMMUNITION AGAINST THE IMPERIAL FACTION IS YET TO BE LOBBED….
 
THE SENSE OF MORAL OUTRAGE IS STILL BUILDING…
 
…PEOPLE ARE WAITING FOR THE RIGHT TIMING…
 
…I HAVE THIS FEELING THAT FIREWORKS WILL EMERGE IN OCTOBER. 
 
AS PREVIOUSLY OBSERVED: Bush remains in every way an “untouchable” international pariah such as has not been seen since the days of Stalin. The problem is the lying. To touch this tar baby, one risks becoming befouled with the lies from even the barest minimum of association.  WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT IS ANYONE’S GUESS. American politics has never been so unpredictable. Doubtless the Bush Administration and virtually the entire Imperial Faction is or will be caught up in legal issues and press controversies which will pile higher and higher.  To counter the attacks and legal moves against them, the Bush-iters will use every sorcery they can contrive to conceal everything which is not nailed down in plain site in front of the New York Times.  They will even chip away at that late at night.   They will use Saddam Hussein in every way possible to rationalize their existence, deeds, and legitimacy to be re-elected.  Every lie and form of bigotry they have ever used will be retred to denigrate Kerry, Edwards, Nader, and every other candidate for lower office.  The meltdown of U.S. politics into a world-class cesspool manipulated by a sordid class of third rate sorcerers will be nearly complete. 
 
BUT PERHAPS THIS IS JUST AN ANNEALING PROCESS, THE TIME OF THE EXPOSIING AND BURNING AWAY OF THE CRAP.  PERHAPS WE ARE NOW FINALLY FIGHTING IN ONE OF THE LAST CHAPTERS IN THE STRUGGLE FOR THE SOUL OF  AMERICA WHICH BEGAN ON THE STREETS OF BERKELEY WITH THE FREE SPEECH MOVEMENT AND THE REALIZATION THAT THE VIETNAM WAR WAS A HIDDEOUS MISTAKE.
 

Posted by: judi on September 9, 2004 09:27 PM

Sorry...not Earth Watch but Earth Changes

Posted by: judi on September 9, 2004 09:28 PM

I too would love to hear from Claudia
but it seems i have lost her email address. It was she that correctly predicted the 2000 election (despite her liberal leanings) which says a lot for her work and her character.

Posted by: mimi on September 9, 2004 09:42 PM

While my father and other young American kids were fearing and fighting for their lives this "low life coward was doing what he has always done---shrugingv off his obligations and fumbles around in a drug fog!


Memos: Bush Refused Order While in Guard
By: Peter Yost--associated press writer


WASHINGTON - Addressing questions that have lingered for years, newly unearthed memos state that George W. Bush failed to meet standards of the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam war, that he refused a direct order and that his superiors were in a state of turmoil over how to evaluate his performance after he was suspended from flying. One military official "is pushing to sugar coat it," one memo says of a proposed evaluation of Bush.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=544&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20040909/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_national_guard

Posted by: KAP on September 9, 2004 10:08 PM

I don't know about the rest of the American public, but I think it is time Bush puts on a military uniform and goes to Iraq and fulfills his military obligation---Just like he is asking all those men and women that have been out of the military for awhile!!!

U.S. troops' death rate rising in Iraq
Experts predict an extended war

With the latest spike in violence in Baghdad, more U.S. troops have died since the turnover of power to an interim Iraqi government at the end of June than were killed during the U.S.-led invasion of the country in the spring of 2003.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5946240/

Posted by: KAP on September 9, 2004 10:18 PM

Hello, Sally and Nancy. I've been thinking about the economic problems
that lie in America's immediate future and one or both of you mentioned
that it may have something to do with the American dollar.
I wonder if it has anything to do with OPEC's considering trading oil in
Euros instead of dollars. I've read several articles which state that
one of the reasons that Iraq was invaded was because Saddam was
considering trading in Euros instead of U.S. dollars. I also believe
that the invasion of Iraq was also an act of intimidation to keep the
other OPEC members from considering altering their exchange currency.
I researched a couple of dates for OPEC and they are as follows:

The date of the next meeting is September 15, 2004 time unknown in
Vienna Austria.
OPEC was created at the Baghdad Conference on September 10-14, 1960 and
Geneva, Switzerland was the headquarters for the first five years but
the headquarters was moved to Vienna, Austria on September 1, 1965.
I'm not an astrologer by any means so I would appreciate any analyses or
predictions that any of you accomplished astrologers have to offer.

Posted by: Roderick on September 10, 2004 12:25 AM

Another reason the tides will shift in Kerry's favor shortly -

'Going Upriver: The Long War of John Kerry' Worldwide Premiere on Tuesday


NEW YORK, U.S. Newswire

With the election fast approaching and political documentaries flooding the market place, one film stands out among the rest -- Going Upriver: The Long War of John Kerry. Helmed by award-winning Director George Butler, best known for the Arnold Schwarzenegger documentary "Pumping Iron", "The Endurance: Shackleton's Legendary Antarctic Expedition" and a close personal friend of Kerry's for over 40 years, "Going Upriver" shows John Kerry in a manner unseen by the general public until now.

Set to make its Worldwide Premiere on Tuesday Sept. 14, at the Toronto Film Festival, the film will be released stateside in select theaters nationwide by THINKfilm on Oct. 1. "I encourage everyone -- Republican or Democrat -- to see this film," said George Butler, director of the film. "This film is as much about an era and the role a devastating war played in dividing our country, as it is about one man. Given our current political climate and involvement abroad, the film is extremely timely and, in my opinion, will resonate on many different levels with the general public, despite political affiliation." ..

Distributor THINKFilm is well poised to release the film just having come off of distributing last year's documentary sensation, "Spellbound" garnering the company its first Oscar nomination and becoming one of the highest grossing documentaries of all time. In addition to THINK, Palisades Pictures and Executive Producer, Vin Roberti, have committed upwards of $1,000,000 to support the P & A fund for the film. ..




Posted by: Sharon Katz on September 10, 2004 12:28 AM

Hurrican Ivan has been downgraded to a tropical storm and is dissolving into nothing...

I live in New Orleans now, previously in South FL for 30 years. I want all tropical depresions to go no further in their developments and any that make it to hurricane status to go out to sea...

At the same time, my husband pointed out something about the path of the 2 previous storms. He could be wrong, and I'm sorry for any damage or danger or trauma to anyone, but he thinks the already affected areas in FL are Republican territory. He feels that it is possible many Republicans won't be able to vote Nov. 2 in the place in precinct where they are registered.

Something to think about...

Posted by: Sharon Katz on September 10, 2004 12:33 AM

Sorry for all my typos recently...my mind is working too fast :-)

With this new OPEC factor, amoung all the others, some of them still unknown, I'm beginning to know what Sally means about whomever is left standing on Oct. 10.

Posted by: Sharon Katz on September 10, 2004 12:45 AM

Weather channel is reporting Ivan at Cat 4.

Posted by: Teresa on September 10, 2004 12:54 AM

This is good news!

House votes to block new overtime rules

WASHINGTON (AP) - In a sharp rebuke of a new administration policy, the House moved Thursday to block the Labor Department from carrying out overtime rules that critics argued could deprive millions of workers of their overtime pay.

The 223-193 vote in favor of blocking the new overtime rules defied the White House, which has threatened to veto a massive spending bill now on the House floor if it contains any language tampering with the rules that took effect Aug. 23.

Democrats, united against the rules, were joined by some 20 Republicans in voting for the amendment to a $142.5 billion health and education spending bill.

"The administration has chosen this time to institute new regulations which for the first time in 80 years scale back workers' entitlement to overtime pay," said Rep. David Obey, D-Wis., a sponsor of the proposal.

Democrats sought to depict the issue as an election-season example of the Bush administration's insensitivity to worker rights, saying the overtime privileges of up to 6 million workers were at risk.

The White House and most Republicans insisted the new rules update an antiquated overtime pay system and would add more than 1 million lower-paid workers to those eligible for overtime.

"I do think that the clarity that comes with these new rules will help better protect American workers," said Rep. John Boehner, R-Ohio, chairman of the House Education and the Workforce Committee.

It was unclear how much impact the House vote would have on the Labor Department rules, the biggest overhaul of overtime regulations in more than half a century. The Senate has yet to take up the health and education bill and the provision could still be stripped out of the final bill when the two chambers, both controlled by Republicans, meet to settle on a final version.


http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/politics/v-print/story/1639721p-9349641c.html

Posted by: Pat C on September 10, 2004 12:57 AM

http://img20.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img20&image=Motivate.jpg

Speak openly.

Posted by: Pat C on September 10, 2004 01:10 AM

Raj and judi...........to give you an idea of what the current news is doing to my brain cells.........I found myself wondering if rotten rats would squeal louder than ordinary rats. But if they were rotten, that implies they'd be dead, and therefore necessarily unable to squeal. You see? I'm definitely losing it. I am joining mon cher ami Jonathan enroute to Paris!!

Posted by: Teg on September 10, 2004 01:16 AM

Sharon Katz, Ivan is far from dissipating! It's just gone from Cat 5 to Cat 4, which could change again by tomorrow.

Hurricane Ivan is Category 4 - Ivan Downgraded To Category 4 As Keys Begin Evacuation
Massive Storm Could Return To Category 5 Strength In Coming Days

POSTED: 4:14 pm EDT September 9, 2004
UPDATED: 6:41 pm EDT September 9, 2004

KEY LARGO, Fla. -- Hurricane Ivan weakened slightly to a Category 4 storm Thursday as visitors and tourists in the Florida Keys began a mandatory evacuation.

-more-
http://www.nbc6.net/weather/3719052/detail.html

It seems to be headed in my direction (Tampa Bay) but of course that could change and they are saying the whole state should be getting ready, it could be pretty bad.

Posted by: Laurie on September 10, 2004 01:28 AM

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_09_05.php#003454

A sage piece of commentary from Kevin Drum that shouldn't get lost in the mix ...

This story is a perfect demonstration of the difference between the Swift Boat controversy and the National Guard controversy. Both are tales from long ago and both are related to Vietnam, but the documentary evidence in the two cases is like night and day. In the Swift Boat case, practically every new piece of documentary evidence indicates that Kerry's accusers are lying. Conversely, in the National Guard case, practically every new piece of documentary evidence provides additional confirmation that the charges against Bush are true.

That really is the heart of the matter. But in telling fashion it's a distinction many miss.

-- Josh Marshall

Posted by: abilene on September 10, 2004 01:37 AM

Which candidate is being more truthful about his military experience?

Go vote (you'll like the results; gotta keep them that way).

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/

Posted by: shylurker on September 10, 2004 01:40 AM

http://www.newdonkey.com/2004/09/waffle-house-at-1600-pennsylvania-ave.html

Waffle House at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
The president doesn't just flip-flop on issues other than tax cuts; sometimes he waffles and plays possum. Remember campaign finance reform, the prescription drug benefit, the highway bill, and for all while, even the gay marriage amendment? These were all issues where Bush tried to have it both ways. Well, there's another great example today, where supporters of an extension of the assault weapons ban on Capitol Hill officially threw in the towel, while the White House pretended there was just nothing poor George W. Bush could do about those mean Republicans in Congress.

This stuff justs ticks me off!!! These people are the worst of the worst.

Posted by: abilene on September 10, 2004 01:49 AM

The White House is trying to strongarm NBC into not doing scheduled Kitty Kelley interviews. You can write, if you feel inclined, the president of NBC, Neal Sahpiro here:

neal.shapiro@nbc.com

Posted by: M. on September 10, 2004 01:57 AM

George Bush, This is Your Life
Will George Bush come clean about his youthful profligate ways?

George W. Bush's past is finally catching up with him. Out of the morass of delays, partial truths, preemptive attacks, and doubletalk come weighty allegations from an indefatigable news service, an important public figure, advocacy organizations and a hack author – all of whom refuse to call off the search. The allegations vary in their authenticity and the depth of their political motivations, but they all add up to Bush taking heat for a past he has never had to publicly account for. http://www.alternet.org/election04/19827/

Posted by: on September 10, 2004 02:39 AM

no (none, nada, zip) offense re: the *justin raimondo* site, but a little digging finds him claiming Kerry was involved in Operation Phoenix (lie) in Viet Nam and accusing Kerry of war crimes (lie). justin is a bad pony, don't bet on him. plus the fonz look went out about two decades ago; get a new hair stylist justin.

here is a fun one from the aclu:

http://www.aclu.org/pizza/


Posted by: on September 10, 2004 02:43 AM

wv, your senator (Byrd,D,WV) is speaking out and WALKING TALL. my senator's, warner and allen are in a race to the bottom. john warner opposed ollie north (thank you) but now diddles around and lets rev. moon use the senate offices to crown himself master of the universe. george allen, well, he's just a joke.

i believe that Sen. Byrd is west virginia's gift to the united states. the man is a prince!

Posted by: mike on September 10, 2004 02:49 AM

i sent the message at 02:43 re badboy justin

Posted by: mike on September 10, 2004 02:54 AM

Don't miss this. These people are really losing it. From Yahoo

Cheney: Economic Stats Miss EBay Sales

21 minutes ago


Indicators measure the nation's unemployment rate, consumer spending and other economic milestones, but Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites) says it misses the hundreds of thousands who make money selling on eBay.

"That's a source that didn't even exist 10 years ago," Cheney told an audience in Cincinnati on Thursday. "Four hundred thousand people make some money trading on eBay."


San Jose, Calif.-based EBay Inc. is an Internet auction site where anyone can sell just about anything, including clothing, cell phones, jewelry, memorabilia, trinkets and automobiles.


Democratic vice presidential candidate John Edwards (news - web sites) responded that Cheney's comments show how "out of touch" he and President Bush (news - web sites) are with the economy.


"If we only included bake sales and how much money kids make at lemonade stands, this economy would really be cooking," Edwards said in a statement.

Posted by: shylurker on September 10, 2004 02:56 AM


Reppublicans enlist Castro....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5012574-111675,00.html

Posted by: wv on September 10, 2004 02:58 AM

Mike

George Allen is a pint-sized Bush - a bloody idiot. Warner is not much better.

When I see a story that needs an answer I send
a full page to my Senators and Representative
and type at the top in 14 point ariel black and
ask "What are you doing about this" or "This needs
your attention". Needless to say I get a lot of
mail from them. I drop into my Representatives
office every couple of weeks, and call my Senators
in Washington for an occasional rant. And if the
vote wrong I let them know I am unhappy. However
they are all Democrats so that is something.

Posted by: wv on September 10, 2004 03:07 AM

wv, when i saw your post, i had a vision of Sen. Byrd transiting the state from town to town calling in one last favor for all he's done--vote for kerry. see if he'll go for that. it's the least the state could do for their grand old lion.

shylurker, great post! in all fairness, we really should count monopoly money and poker chips at their dollar value. national savings would soar!

Posted by: mike on September 10, 2004 03:32 AM


Daily Mislead

http://www.misleader.org/daily_mislead/Read.asp?fn=df09092004.html

Mike -
Our Democratic gubanatorial candidate says that
John Kerry doesn't share "West Virginia" values -
whatever the hell they are. Needless to say I won't be voting for Governor.

Posted by: wv on September 10, 2004 03:36 AM

Mike

Bush is ahead in WV by about 8 points. In 2000
Charleton Heston swung throught the state telling
all the Bubbas that the Democrats were going to
take their guns away. Hundreds registered Repug
and gave the state to Bush. Looks like it is happening all over again. Most of them would
rather lose their penis than their guns.

Posted by: wv on September 10, 2004 03:42 AM

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=370&row=0

On November 9, 2001, when you could still choke on the dust in the air near Ground Zero, BBC Television received a call in London from a top-level US intelligence agent. He was not happy. Shortly after George W. Bush took office, he told us reluctantly, the CIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and the FBI, "were told to back off the Saudis."

We knew that. In the newsroom, we had a document already in hand, marked, "SECRET" across the top and "199-I" - meaning this was a national security matter.

The secret memo released agents to hunt down two member of the bin Laden family operating a "suspected terrorist organization" in the USA. It was dated September 13, 2001 -- two days too late for too many. What the memo indicates, corroborated by other sources, was that the agents had long wanted to question these characters ... but could not until after the attack. By that time, these bin Laden birds had flown their American nest.

Back to the high-level agent. I pressed him to tell me exactly which investigations were spiked. None of this interview dance was easy, requiring switching to untraceable phones. Ultimately, the insider said, "Khan Labs." At the time, our intelligence agencies were on the trail of Pakistan's Dr. Strangelove, A.Q. Khan, who built Pakistan's bomb and was selling its secrets to the Libyans. But once Bush and Condoleeza Rice's team took over, the source told us, agents were forced to let a hot trail go cold. Specifically, there were limits on tracing the Saudi money behind this "Islamic bomb."

Then we made another call, this time to an arms dealer in the Mideast. He confirmed that his partner attended a meeting in 1995 at the 5-star Hotel Royale Monceau in Paris where, allegedly, Saudi billionaires agreed to fund Al Qaeda fanatics. We understood it to be protection money, not really a sign of support for their attacks. Nevertheless, rule number one of investigative reporting is "follow the money" -- but the sheiks' piggy banks were effectively off-limits to the US agents during the Bush years. One of the men in the posh hotel's meeting of vipers happens to have been a Bush family business associate.

MORE!

Posted by: Pat C on September 10, 2004 03:56 AM

Roderick - I have thought for a long time that the battle against oil trading in euros was a big issue. I think Nicaragua either threatened it or started doing it as well. It would devastate our economy and that would in turn harm the world economy. I think that is the only reason it hasn't happened yet. Otherwise, I am sure the OPEC countries would love to punch us in the gut at this point.

The price of oil for us would skyrocket and with it the price of many other things.

I have been concerned that the current Saturn transit to US Mercury might hit us in our currency, relating to oil or investments since Mercury is in the US 8th house. So far it hasn't happened, but the transit is active til the spring. What did happen on almost the exact transit was the US death toll in Iraq hit 1000, connecting to Mercury's 8th house of death energy.

Posted by: Nancy on September 10, 2004 04:04 AM

Mike, how could you forget all those coupons that come with the Sunday papers?

Posted by: shylurker on September 10, 2004 04:13 AM

Here is some interesting reading from a site (www.edtamplin.com), again predicting a Kerry victory:

http://www.edtamplin.com/articles/Predictions%202004%20update.html

A word on the Presidential elections. John Kerry imposes the aggressive martial energy on the US horoscope. Kerry, born with Mars and Uranus together, brings both to align with America's Uranus. This planet has been so often associated with war or assassinations. Consider that the Civil War began with America's Uranus returning to its birthplace position for the first time, the second return proclaimed D-Day.

Kerry's self-sufficient Moon/Saturn combination, falls right on America's Mars. Kerry would like to organise the military, like a real disciplinarian. Being born under a Full Moon is a guarantee of objectivity and usually publicity too. His Sagittarian Sun and Ascendant projects natural optimism, but it is realistically tempered via its opposition to the Moon and Saturn. Kerry places Neptune on the Midheaven of the United States. Therefore he may come across as a very charismatic character, but will he deliver his promises? The difficulty with this placement lies is bringing things to fruition.

Kerry's rise to power has also cost him dearly. As Pluto moved across his Ascendant and birth Sun he lost those close to him and also was operated on for cancer. In true Plutonian terms he has literally risen from the ashes to become a Presidential front-runner leading into the 2004 elections. On the day of the showdown, November 2, Kerry will have the beneficial combination of Venus and Jupiter passing his Midheaven and in his career house. Pluto will still be in the vicinity of his Sun, and the transiting Nodes will move across his Venus. It's a popular arrangement, enough for him to give the biggest race of his life a real shake.

Incumbent George W. Bush has to survive a Saturn return to win a second term. It's a case of either kudos for a job well done or the past returning to haunt. Bush does have some difficult aspects on the day. Mars opposes his career related Midheaven. The Sun, which squares Neptune on Election Day, is also squaring his Mercury/Pluto union.

On George's progressed chart his Midheaven is in line with Uranus and transiting Pluto comes to oppose his progressed Midheaven. This too supports a sudden change of career. These are the sorts of aspects that propose an overthrow of the existing order. They may serve you well if you are re-structuring your life. But they'd be more productive for someone hoping to secure a surprise win, rather than maintain the status quo, which of course George hopes to do.

Posted by: Lawrence the LEO on September 10, 2004 04:41 AM

ok, shylurker, you've got me going. how about:
-all those coupons you get at the supermarker
-all those pennies that are not in circulation
-the value of the chemicals in all of our bodies which is about $1.50 a pop
-not to mention the value of the chemicals in our pets bodies (lets see 28 cats x's 13 cents)
-and the un used gas in our tanks

i'm working on it but i feel like a wealthy guy in a cornucopia of abundance...frolicing in amber waves of grain...

Super highways, coast to coast,
easy to get anywhere
On the transcontinental overload,
just slide behind the wheel
How does it feel

When there's no destination - that's too far
And somewhere on the way,
you might find out who you are

Chorus:
Living in America - eye to eye, station to station
Living in America - hand to hand, across the nation
Living in America - got to have a celebration

(c) James Brown "The Godfather of Soul"

Lawrence the Leo: thanks for the Ed Tamblin thing. reminds me i have to applolgize for my 'necromancy' remark of a few days ago. there's a cultural revolution in my head that transformed into astro-mccarthyism on my part. i'm on laura bush overload! say it ain't so pickles!!!

i'm now going to the corner to sit and say at least 100 hail mary's

Posted by: mike on September 10, 2004 05:25 AM

Teg, you crack me up with rat ponderings.....!

Posted by: judi on September 10, 2004 06:49 AM

Just thought I'd pop on and share these few paragraphs from a site I just found tonight. Several things are well written and do follow the patterns that Sally, Nancy, Chas, and others of you have been talking about. Since I easily pick up on the anxiety, fears and anger in this country, and world too, I thought the following comments helped and acted as a reminder to keep myself from being sucked into the darkness and negativity we are steeped in now.


Psychic Predictions by Fred Fassett for 2004

...
It is the fighting over oil that will eventually force new lessons down our throats, bringing us to the awareness of the greed of others. Seeing these people for what they are and removing them from power one way or another. That we still allow ourselves to be manipulated by self interest groups is a giant lesson leading us toward ascertaining truths for our own selves, being alert to the motives of others. How will those in service to themselves learn the error of their ways if we continue to play into their hands?

The economy will remain somewhat volatile, but will generally move upward for a time. In the U.S., the presidential election outcome will affect it. If big money politics is allowed to stay in power, the gap between the “haves” and the “have-nots” will, of course, increase as that is the agenda of these people....

...A word about fear…

As most of you know who have a metaphysical sensibility, fear brings that of which you are afraid. There is a lot of air-wave chatter about fear, in particular fearing that mysterious creature called a “Terrorist”. This is what I would recommend—do not buy into other people’s interpretation of what’s going on. If your lessons in life bring you close to a terrorist situation, learn what you can from it and move on unafraid, for fear is the enemy. Terrorists want to instill fear. The darkness wants you to be afraid—for in that fear you can be controlled. If you feel afraid, ask God to remove your fear. He will. You can move on in peace.

A fully functioning “Light Worker” cannot be in fear. Fear cannot live where love is.

Remember too, that there is much profit to be made from chaos and fear. It is to some peoples’ advantage to perpetuate it fear, keep us off-balance, distracted. They know if we are afraid we will buy whatever it is they are selling to be safe. Be careful of this....

...The War in Iraq…

I know we all hope it will somehow resolve itself in a constructive manner, but as long as we in the U.S. misunderstand our role in the big picture, we will experience this war. Our job has never been to beat the crap out of people we perceive as evil. All we can ever do is offer education and physical comforts in the hope of helping victims gather some strength and clarity to change their own reality. Granted, in some cases this is very difficult, but I feel diplomatic negotiations facilitated by an international, unbiased group (the United Nations, for instance) is the only way to accomplish positive change.

The current administration is, of course, making many mistakes. They have been very naďve in their perception of how the sea of humanity ebbs and flows in its efforts to grow. They have a rather simplistic notion of performing as the world’s sheriffs in order to force change. Force of any kind will only be met by resistance. How could it be otherwise? So, as long as we are intent on forcing our ideas onto others, we will be in some kind of war.

http://www.psychicfred.com/predictions_2004.htm


May we all be loving and fearless....

Posted by: Kathleen on September 10, 2004 07:14 AM

Sharon....It is interesting to note that the day "Going Upriver" is released the sun, mercury, mars, and jupiter will be on John Kerry's Libra midheaven. Venus will conjunct his jupiter in Leo... it certainly does look like the tides are turning, as we knew they would. Justice will prevail and we should all follow John's example of not falling into the trap of hate.

Posted by: teresa b on September 10, 2004 01:04 PM

Amen to that, teresa b.

And, Laurie, I apologize if I seemed to be making light of the hurricane. I was actually repeating Jaycee's affirmation upthread where it was proposed to use it to influence the storm. I have & will continue doing it and have shared that idea with my friends and family, most of which live in South FL, my home for 30 years, until 1.5 yrs ago.

My cousin's meditation group spent an hour sending peace and love waves to Frances last week.

My thoughts and prayers (and Red Cross donation money) are with all already affected by the storm, and for those who seem to be in its path, say the affirmation, and we will pray for your safety and protection from any damage at all.

I'm still in an area that gets hurricanes (New Orleans) but FL is the place in the U.S. that seems to have gotten them this year.

I very much understand your fears, Laura. Say the affirmation and send peace & love to the eye of the storm.

Love, White Light & May G-d Shield You and All others from All Harm,

To paraphrase Jaycee (look above for her affirmation)-

"Ivan is weakening to a tropical storm. Ivan is becoming debilitated and dissolving"

Sharon

Posted by: Sharon Katz on September 10, 2004 03:05 PM

Hey Teg, I meant the rats rotten INSIDE;rats when
dead are rotten OUTSIDE, Teg!

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http://www.gugu.pl/ wyszukiwarka cenowa
http://www.agdrtv.com/, wow ale nie waw
http://www.agdrtv.com/notebooki/ , camisony nexoo
http://www.lg.agdrtv.com/ , który nie ten lienergee
http://www.toshiba.agdrtv.com/ laptop ale ktomenistecoon
http://www.sony.agdrtv.com/ , a gdzie nim
http://www.samsung.agdrtv.com/ , tam ale nie tu
http://www.siemens.agdrtv.com/ niemiecka marka lae takimotoe
http://www.panasonic.agdrtv.com/ , kiedy kolwiek
http://www.agdrtv.com/kamery_cyfrowe/ , sony whirlpool
http://www.gugu.pl/5/ wózki dziecięce
http://www.agdrtv.com/telewizory_lcd/ , telewizory plazmowe jvc
http://www.agdrtv.com/telewizory_plazmowe/ , hoover pralki
http://www.agdrtv.com/pralki/ , zmywarki promocje
http://www.agdrtv.com/lodowki/ , kuchnie amica
http://www.hp.agdrtv.com/ , a gdzie nim
http://www.eeeby.pl/ wyszukiwarka cenowa
http://www.camcoo.com/ lcd dvd i inne
http://www.gugu.pl/8/ dla dziecka foteliki
http://www.kancelaria.prawna.info/ oki doki mocki pocki
http://www.gugu.pl/5/ wózki dziecięce
http://www.acer.agdrtv.com/ acer notebooki
http://www.fujitsu-siemens.agdrtv.com/ sklep fujitsu siemens laptopy
http://www.gugu.pl/12/ łóżeczka dla dzieci
http://www.whirlpool.agdrtv.com/ pralki i piekarniki whirlpool
http://www.camcoo.net/ camcoo katalogo stonico


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