Thank you for the hopeful article (echo of Watergate) Isabelle.

Something in your article and Sally's part 4
made me wonder if we are ready to repeat the American Revolution. We commonly celebrate the American Revolution, "the shot heard around the world" as July 4, 1776 but that is not the date of
the start of the revolution. As a matter of fact the start of the actual revolution is confusing.

When? And the reason of course that I'm interested is, how many years has it been? what planet's transit can we pinpoint as responsible? so that we can see what is equating to today's transits.

Hopefully we are in the process of a new American
revoltion BY THE PEOPLE where we will not accept this kind of sneaky, immoral governance anymore.

US History says the first killing associated with
the revolution was in 1770 in Boston and the rest of the revolutionary actions occurred in 1775 (not
1776 as we commonly think of it:

An African-American named Crispus Attucks was one of the first Americans killed during the American Revolutionary War, in Boston on March 5, 1770, at an event that has come to be called the Boston Massacre.

1775 February 9 - American Revolutionary War: British Parliament declares Massachusetts in rebellion March 23 - American Revolutionary War:

Patrick Henry delivers his speech - "give me liberty or give me death" in Williamsburg, Virginia. April 14 - 1775

American Revolutionary War: Massachusetts Governor Gage is secretly ordered by the British to enforce the Coercive Acts and suppress open rebellion by an iron hand. April 18 -

American Revolutionary War: General Gage orders 700 troops to Concord to destroy the rebels' weapons depot. April 18 1775-

American Revolutionary War: Paul Revere makes his famous midnight ride - "Listen my children, and you shall hear of the midnight ride of Paul Revere on the eighteenth of April, in seventy-five; hardly a man is now alive who remembers that famous day and year" (Henry Wadsworth Longfellow).

April 19 1775- American Revolutionary War: The Battle of Lexington and Concord begins at dawn with a volley on 70 armed Massachusetts militiamen on Lexington Green by the British advance guard, which leaves 8 dead and 10 wounded - "the shot heard around the world".

On February 6, 1788 Massachusetts became the sixth state to ratify the United States Constitution.

Perhaps April 19 with the first real skirmish
but that was the first attack of the British upon the rebel American colonialists.

Apparently the first act taken by the rebellious Americans was "The Boston Tea Party" of December 16, 1773 ( a first hand account which is recorded here: http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/teaparty.htm)

So I think the date and planets I might look for
is December 16, 1773, early evening 6 or 7 PM as the date of our first active attack and rebellion.

The other date I might want to look at to see what we Americans are going to do about this government is the actual start of the Civil War, American against American .

Wonderful article Isabelle!! Thank you!

Isabelle, very very thought provoking. Pallas18 thank you for the history lesson. Another 'American Revolution' ? Wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Man what a full moon!
Thank you for your healing thoughts! I am treading water until I can get into surgery at the end of May. Which says a lot about our lack of good healthcare and I do have insurance!
Happy Mother's Day all (which includes Gaia)!

Oh,Morgana, thank you ever so much for letting us hear from you. I know many on this board will concur that you have been very much in our minds and hearts.

Isabelle, very thoughtful and hopeful article. Many thanks to you, too!

Morgana, I add my good wishes and light to an easy quick successful and relieving surgery. I dont know what its for but am I correct that it's in the mid-body section? I'm sending gold light there.

Sally has started me on this history thing equating to astrological movement today to see what we may expect now, so I'm adding here, the start of the Civil War which might be more applicable, when American fought American over government.

"On the infamous day of 12 April 1861, when an attempt was made to re-supply Fort Sumter at Charleston, South Carolina, the southern forces opened fire beginning the Civil War. Lincoln retaliated within a few days which also brought about the secession of Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia. "

And by the way, on a completely different subject,
with Saturn on the US Sun, the price of Gold went down 9 points this week, which of course makes no logical sense with the revelations of what America is doing, one would think Gold would go up as people would dump the dollar, but then we know it's down cause Saturn is on the Sun.

Pallas you are right about the potential of this leading up to a new revolution. If you look at the charts of the Boston Tea Party, when the first shot was fired and the actual ending to the Revolutionary way (1781) it's pretty compelling.

On a different subject, this was in the Washington Post today, and it's troubling

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11158-2004May8.html

Isabel, thanks for a "comforting" article.

Morgana, as with everyone on this board, our thoughts and love are with you and we know that your surgery is a grand success.

0
To all of you who are Mothers and/or Grandmothers,

HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY

I hope is is as happy as mine.

Isabelle, thank for the new article/Mother's Day
Gift.

I would kind of lean on the Boston Tea Party Date
as this Country's Birth. Then, on the other hand,
it makes more sense that the Country we know today
should have the conclusion of the Civil War as its
Birthday. This last makes more sens.

What do our Astrologers say?

Morgana:

All my best to you. I shall send you my healing
light daily. Rest up for your ordeal and take my
'standard' prescription: VITAMINS!!!(Natural, of
course)

Peace, Joy and Love

((((((Morgana))))))

This is hopeful.

http://tinyurl.com/2vm7f

Cheyney grads snub Santorum

Dissatisfied with their school’s choice of commencement speaker, about half of Saturday’s graduating class at Cheyney University rebuffed U.S. Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa., by standing and turning their backs to him during his speech.

Just as Santorum began his address, dozens of the 324 graduates stood and faced the audience. One graduate left the area. Many in the crowd applauded the students’ actions.

"Don’t hide from controversy," Santorum told the students as many carried on conversations, at times almost drowning out the senator’s words.

Santorum continued with his speech, raising his voice to be heard among the noise and stopped only when he was finished.

Some audience members were vocally opposed to the senator’s comments about problems in the African-American community.

On that subject, Santorum began by talking about the modern-day threat to civility, which he said was not as offensive as segregation but still was a major concern -- the breakdown of the traditional family.

More.....

Dear Sally and All,

the settings on my computer won't let me get into
things like the Wash Post and NYTimes where you have to fill in and sumbit (cookie blockers and more safeguards etc...so could I ask
you to post the applicable paragraphs ???

Thanks.

Essentially it says this Pallas.

"Despite Rhetoric, Bush, Kerry Agree On Many Issues"

Nader would appreciate this.

Thanks.

Yes Kerry's alikeness to Bush is not very encouraging at all. I preferred Edwards who at least could be counted on to protect citizens' access to the legal system which Bush wants to end.

A poll today states Nader is up to 7% from 5 and
it is Kerry who lost the percentages to Nader.

In the articles I was reading about the Civil War,
Lincoln the Republican got elected because of splits in the Democratic party, other dems broke off from the main party and formed new parties.

Thanks again Nader.

P.S. - Kerry's centrist positions too much like
bush's place him as the candidate being put forward by the DLC ---they have abandoned the liberal party.

Pallas, Nader is getting more funding from the neocons than from any liberals, and he knows it.

The problem with my Democrats is that they don't know how to keep their eyes on the goal...getting Bush out and taking back the House and the Senate. I've heard the phrase "herding cats" when describing Democrats, and I use to think it was humorous. The humor is gone for me.

Salon has two in person accounts of torture at
the Iraqi prisons, here is one:

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/05/08/iraq_abuse/index.html

at the end of this article my thought is the neo-
con fascisti government has succeeded in becoming
Nazi's SS. Rumsfeld's german relatives were right
to disown him two years ago. they know a nazi when they see one.

Solar Eclipse Challenges Authority
Via Aries, Identity and the Anarctic Degree

http://www.aquasoul.com/April19SolarEclipse.html

I've mentioned a couple of times transiting neptune conjunct natal Neptune and my earlier post was in regard to New Zealand and Lord of the Rings symbology.
I wondered when the US experienced it's Neptune return and here's what I discovered.
Based on the July 4th chart, Neptune is 22virgo25. Exact conjunct was 10/29/1938 - 1st pass, 2/25/39, 7/30,1939, and 10/05/39 last pass.
And guess what - Orson Wells delivered his War of the Worlds 10/30/38.
Time magazine named Hitler man of the year.
8/01/39 - 1st Jet powered flight
8/02/39 - Einstein sent letter to FDR suggesting development of A Bomb.
11/04/39 - FDR signs 1939 Neutrality Act, hammered out in congress as an amendment to the 1935 original, repealing the arms embargo portion because of the dampening effect it had on trade, and thus effectively ending US total neutrality stance.
1939 was the build up and start of the 2nd World War. Pam-Am's first transatlantic flight was in June.

So it would appear that this would indicate a turning point for the start of America's modern military industrial build up, that ties back perhaps to America's military beginnings and issues of trade.
Maybe a neptune return has something to do with enhancing circumstances set forth at the foundation.

Sy Hersh's "Chain of Command" article published in this weeks' New Yorker found online here

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040517fa_fact2

I read that Wa Post article and I disagreed with it immediately. Compare these issues:

Environment: Kerry endorsed by League of Conservation Voters. Bush has oil executives imbedded in his cabinet.

Women's Rights: Kerry tried to get the ERA passed, stands up to conservative Catholics for womens' choice. Bush would appoint anti-choice judges to the supreme court.

Working Class: Kerry has consistently supported increases in mimiumum wage, and other progressive tax and economic plans to help low to middle income folks. Bush gives tax breaks to the wealthy.

Foreign Policy: Kerry is an internationalist with diplomatic experience (normalization of relations with Vietnam) Bush--enough said.

Death Penalty: Kerry bucks public opinion to stand against it. Bush has executed more than any politician I'm aware of.

There are HUGE moral and karmic differences between these two candidates.

...worth a read....

http://www.observer.com/index_go.html

Bethcf4p,

Might I suggest you express your views with those pertinent examples you illustrated above to the Post in response to that ridiculous article they published? I, too, will be writing them, so, the more the merrier, right? :-)

Jonathan

Hey everyone, I just noticed an article in our local paper about General Taguba (it was his report about the abuse they were keeping under raps) - they focused on him because of his ties to Hawaii, his family moved here when he was 10. Born 10/31/1950 in the Phillipines, which makes it the same day as Richard Clarke (10/30/1950) because of the date line! What a coincidence to have two scandals with key players having the same birthdate.
Not sure what this means - "on Friday the Pentagon announced that Taguba was being reassigned to the office of the assistant secretary of defense for Reserve affairs as deputy assistant secretary of defense for readiness, training and mobilization."

...more to think about

http://www.yellowtimes.org/print.php?sid=1917

...I urge everyone to read this article...it
certainly is food for thought...

http://www.yellowtimes.org/print.php?sid=1916

wv, the article on Kerry is interesting and includes a lot of truth. The problem is that the military industrial machine is so vast, so secretive, and is a cash cow to soooo many, that 1 man, no matter who he is, will be able to stop it cold turkey. The real change is a longer term project and can only begin after we have elected a majority of representatives with integrity and long term, international, foresight. They are the only ones who will have the ability to stop the funding of the cash cow and instead divert those funds into creative ways to better our planet. In the meantime, Kerry certainly has the diplomatic skills on an international front to begin the weaning process, and I think he has the spiritual awareness to think in broader terms. There is no quick fix, and that is the hard truth. Short of a catastrophic event that will affect the world in total, this demilitarization will only happen by degrees, with the war addicts resisting at every turn.

POLL-SHOULD RUMMY RESIGN- GO VOTE

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4934213/

Jeanie,

You're absolutely right about demilitarization happening in degrees. The challenge, of course, will be electing enough people to the House and Senate who have the foresight and spirituality you mentioned. And with people like DeLay in Texas and the yahoo in Colorado redistricting (and ensuring usually Republican incumbent strength for perhaps generations), it's much more difficult for that process to begin in earnest. My suspicion, and it's one that has been growing for a few years now, is that the United States will hit "rock bottom" --- financially, in it's prestige around the World and in the opportunities it's able to offer it's citizens --- within ten to twelve years. The once might country we were will stumble, fall and find, because of it's past greed and unnecessary flexing of it's so-called empirical muscles, that we have few friends around the World willing to help us, until we change our "government". It wouldn't surprise me to find an exodus, of sorts, of Americans relocating elsewhere overseas just so they can find jobs and be able to earn a decent living. I also believe we could see the new European Union gain strength as a new and trustworthy "America". Perhaps after this experience, and the inevitable governmental changes it would bring, the American people will start, en masse, taking responsibility for who they allow "represent" them in their Goverenment and begin electing those who have the qualities we spoke of earlier. I could be wrong, but, karmically, what goes up must eventually come down ... and I suspect we've already begun our downward descent with the hounding of Clinton in the 1990s (funded by tax payer money and run from the Halls of Congress) through the 2000 election (a bloodless coup if there ever was one) and right on through this unspeakably sad, unnecessary Iraq war.

Just my two (or five?) cents.

Jonathan

first off, morgana...good luck to you and for your surgery! thy will be done always works for me!

isabelle! considering i have neptune at 4 degree in my 11th in scorpio sextile my 4 planet stellium
from 4-9 degree virgo in my 9th, does this indicate my religion is pretty right on? most think it's highly strange .. i am anti-gun but pro -life, pro-marijuana, pro-peace...with your analysis could be my theories aren't too far from common sense?

nader up to 7 is interesting. this morning's news said he was at 5 and taking equally from kerry and bush. i was stunned too, it was like 3-2 from kerry/bush. i wrote to astrologer blaschke with my particular nader astro finds on nov 2 (posted on the site before sally's riders series, forget title of treatise) and while blaschke said he only goes by 1 degree orb and so therefore some of the (many!) incredible aspects (all within 5) i found wouldn't hold under HIS analysis. BUT he said he found it interesting that ralphs progressed moon is trine EXACT his natal mid-heaven on election day (i don't have ralphs progressed so i only went by transits to natal - this was news to me). i believe ralph's planning some capra-esque ads sure to grab the dis-heartened and disgusted true conservatives republicans. i did hear that 65 per cent of kerry voters are voting for him because he's not bush, (goes with sally's analysis - kerry may not win but bush may lose) anyway, 65 per cent of 43 is about 30, 30+7 puts kerry in 3rd place. if ralph looks stronger - this is very serious stuff...what matters most is for bush to lose of course, but if kerry keeps going the way he is and nader has better stars (we may end up all rooting for nader) as the real viable candidate (if he get's the profile that the repugs stupidly want him to). we've got to remember that there's a hell of a lot of soldiers out there WHO HAVE NOT BEEN POLLED who are going to vote for the guy who can beat bush. esp if the guy wants to bring THEM HOME. food for thought, VALID food for thought, esp if dennis goes to ralph as vp. who cares if ralph has no first lady? it'll give him more hours to fix the country, which he'd gladly do. and by the time people like the repugs realize what they've done, he'll possibly be in office, too late for their fake moralistic smear machine.

you say you want a revolution?

Two moew great articles.............
The Abyss sent me rummaging for my "History of Civilization" published 1955................where I read...............
Added to the list of "enlightened despots..........King George III of Great Britain. (1760-1820)
"Farmer George" showed very little enlightenment beyond taking an interest in the agrarian revolution, and writing articles on turnips for Arthur Young's Annals of Agriculture. In politics he did attempt a course that may with some exaggeration be termed a dilute form of enlightened despotism.
He proposed to re-assert some of the royal perogatives that had lapsed under the first 2 Georges. He tried to wrest control of the House of Commons from the long dominent Whig oligarchy and retain it by the Whig devices of patronage & bribery. Virtuous as a person, devoted as a family man, George as a monarch was stubborn, short sighted & in the long run unsuccessful! At first it was easy to exploit the factional strife among the Whigs, manuver Pitt out of office & replace him with his friend Lord Bute ( Butt!) but they found it hard to justify their failure to deprive France of the sugar rich West Indies, in the Peace of Paris.The Commons ratified the treaty, but George had to dismiss Bute to apease the critics of British Diplomacy!
During North's minestry ( as head of the Cabinet, 1770-1782)
the policy of royal intervention, first stiffened then wavered, finally collapsing in the face of disaster. He lost the 13 colonies!!!!! The influence of the crown was diminished, North imploring the King to abdicate, stepped down himself and was replaced by Pitt's son ( only 25). Pitt's 18 year stint shifted the power to the Parliment and George resigned himself to the role of constitutional monarch. by 1780. ( The British flirtation with enlightened despotism had come to an end! Do you think George III was having a Saturn return? Any one want to follow this? I don't have the nessessary software to figure it out.
Also this........during the early years of the war the British Public agreed with Dr. Samuel Johnson, that Americans were a "race of convicts," and should be thankful for anything we allow them short of hanging! As the strength of the American resistance became evident, and the British mismanmagement accumulated, that opinion changed. Historians are revising, & upgrading, their figure that more than 1/3 of the colonists were involved in the Revolution.

And this........The Constitution is indebted to the "French" philosophes /Montesquieu. The idea of seperating the executive, legislative & judicial powers was borrowed from the Spirit of the Laws. The Presidents check on Congress through veto power, congressional check on the executive & judiciary through impeachment & confirmation, as well as the check on each branch of Congress by requiring both to consent to legislation. These balancing devices were derived in part from
Montesquieu,. The recurrent tensions between President & Congress, thus originated in the American adaptation of an 18th century French misreading of British Constitutional practice. May be that's why this administration is working so hard to change it, it's Soooo FRENCH!
Barbara, I second the intuition on Bastille Day! I am also Hugunoet. Are you one of Pierre Fauconnier's ? I have a book; PF & his decendants. There are a lot of people listed in the book, with very interesting stories.....which seem to carry a strong ancestral memory. My Father & my Daughter were both drawn to immigrate from NJ/Phila. to the Albany /Catskill area, near land he owned back in 1706-35. I encountered a "cousin" in the AmeriCorps with me here in Maine ( 60 of us).
What are the chances of that? One of the women married Captain Nathaniel Hatch back in the 17th century!
It seems to be an important thread I'm trying to weave into the tapestry!
Pat QOP

Continuing my natal neptune return thoughts for a country.
I looked up the chart for the US constitution and see that Neptune is 17-48 libra - Richard Clarke's natal neptune just happens to be almost conjunct at 17-50 libra. I wonder what that means for the energy of the constitution from all of us grannys born around that same time period? I see the constitution has a sag rising too.

Jeannie,

I think the house placement of that Neptune would
be very influential. Let's say Clarke and TAguba both have Neptune in the 9th house. That could make them very idealistic about the law, about foreign affairs. (9th house is the natural house of Sagittarius)

On the other hand Neptune in Virgo is not a particularly strong Neptune. Neptune is in ints fall there, weak because it's in its opposite sign

Actually if you think about it a conman with Neptune in Virgo could be kind of fun. Every time he told a lie, he might have to run to the bathroom with diarrhea - cause Virgo rules the intestines (digestive system?).

Pallas I have libra neptune in the 9th, idealistic about law and foreign affairs, hmmmm.
A US virgo neptune - now what does that say if the govt is trying to con the people - information diarrhea? ;)

Great article, Isabelle. Together with Sally's last article it culminates in -- what seems to me -- karmic determination.

I had the privilege of listening to Dennis Kucinich who said, during his speech, something incredibly profound. He felt we needed to heal our past grievances with both the Native Americans and African Americans before we could go forward as a nation of principle. Of course the way he said it was more profound than how i'm relaying it.

I thought of the above while reading Pallas' historical timeframe and wonder how Chriron played into the more notorious assaults such as the Trail of Tears, etc.

White light to you, Morgana.

Another note as Venus readies to make her statement: Archeologists have found the ancient University of Alexandria. To quote from a Los Angeles Times article "It was here that Archimedes inveted the screw-shaped fluid pump stll in use today, that Euclid invented the rules of geometry, that Hypsicles first divided the circle of the zodiac into 360 degres, and the astronomer Eratosthenes calculated the diameter of the earth."

karen

The War is Lost
By William Rivers Pitt

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/051004A.shtml

Apparently, we are going to have a July Surprise, too. Isn't that just in time for the Democrats' convention?
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com

This website fills a powerful thirst in me to be involved in a dialogue of wise old souls who want to guide & protect earth and mankind's evolution. I have decided to archive some of the article and contents. Problem is, Neptune is transiting my Mercury. Can someone point me in the direction of the article written by Sally (I believe) that discussed our oil addiction being the basis of the world crisis? Also, there was a long post in the last week about oil depletion which I think was based on the work of the guy who writes about "Peak Oil"? Thank you...

Sending an ongoing supply of love and strong, protective, brilliantly shining white Light to Morgana...and all of you.

Sharon K

Very thought~provoking article, Isabelle. Thank you.

All my best wishes and healing vibes to you, Morgana~

~D

Wonderful article, Isabelle. In the previous thread I posted re a faint insistent idea that the prison in Iraq is reminiscent of the Bastille. Sally responded in her supportive, encouraging way. Since then have been reading Joseph Wilson's book. There is a bridge in Baghdad over the Tigres called the July 14 Bridge. (Don't know why.) The article Novak wrote outing Wilson's wife was printed in Wash Post on July 14. (Bastille Day) I looked at a US Sibley chart with July 14 2004 transits and couldn't make anything of it. Well, I am like the greenhorn in the woods who notices the marks on the trees, but only the real Scouts know what they mean. PS Thanks Bethcf4p for your remarks re Kerry's stands. I am writing handout supporting him and am shamelessly copying from you. Also, Jeannie re Taguba's new assignment--from my 9 years working in US civil service I would say he has been laterally reassigned to the broom closet.

From the talkingpointsmemo link above, there is also an article further down that references this story and the connection between US prison abuses and Iraq - specificially, involvement of a US private prison contractor under suspicion, chosen by Ashcroft no less (why was he was involved?) to set up the Iraq prison - another bastille?
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/08/national/08PRIS.html?hp

http://www.salon.com/comics/tomo/2004/05/10/tomo/print.html

Yesterday's Boondocks
http://www.uclick.com/client/wpc/bo/

Thanks, Jeannie. In the olden days butchers were banned from serving on a jury in this country. If a person is a sadist what work will he seek? Maybe a prison guard. Just as if a person is a pedophile he would seek some job in charge of children. There are many good and exemplary people working in prisons and also among young people, But, of course those who would take advantage also will seek these positions. As citizens and parents we have to be very careful.

"Staring into the abyss" is a great way to describe the United States of America at the moment. It reminds me of that old Chinese curse, "may you live in interesting times."

We're all witnessing a sort of deconstruction of our government here in the USA. As has been said here before, there's no going back to the way things have been. In this forum, we know that we are heading into unprecedented realms of consciousness, times of enormous changes that will have effects far into the future and will undoubtedly shape our society in ways we can't even fathom at present.

However, to reach this new consciousness we are having to let go of all of our safety nets, preconceived ideas and routines and forage out into scary, uncharted realms.

The "letting go" is going to be the hardest part for so many of us.

Just some observations.
~D

Do any of you know about Alliance for the New Humanity? I heard Depak Chopra speak of them, I think it was either 2002 or 2003
Here is a link to their website http://www.anhglobal.org/

i can't believe that bush congratulated rummy today! what a psycho.

could it be having a b-day on july 4 weekend made him hate america or something? i mean WHAT IS UP???

sick sicko..

thank god there's been an outcry from repubs in senate as well as the military papers....

Since trans Pluto has stimulated the USA Mars/Neptune square, I thought it would be interesting to take a look at what was happening when trans Pluto was conjuncting USA Neptune. I start with trans Pluto at 21 deg Virgo which began approx Oct 1, 1967. This is from Wikpedia:

October 2 - Thurgood Marshall becomes the first black member of the U.S. Supreme Court.

October 3 - The X-15 research aircraft with Chuck Yeager establishes a speed record of Mach 6.7.

October 8 - Guerrilla leader Che Guevara and his men are captured in Bolivia. The next day Guevara is executed for attempting to incite a revolution.

October 12 - Vietnam War: US Secretary of State Dean Rusk states during a news conference that proposals by the United States Congress for peace initiatives were futile because of North Vietnam's opposition.

October 17 - Premiere of the musical Hair Off-Broadway.

October 19 - Mariner 5 probe flies by Venus.

October 21 - Egyptian surface-to-surface missile sinks the Israeli destroyer Eilat, killing 47 Israeli sailors. Israel retaliates by shelling Egyptian refineries along the Suez Canal.

October 21 - Ten of thousands of Vietnam War protesters march in Washington DC.

October 25 - Abortion bill passes in British parliament.

October 26 - Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi of Iran is officially crowned.

October 27 - Charles De Gaulle vetoes British entry into EEC – again.

October 30 - British troops and Chinese demonstrators clash in the border of China and Hong Kong.

November 2 - Vietnam War: US President Lyndon B. Johnson holds a secret meeting with a group of the nation's most prestigious leaders ("the Wise Men") and asks them to suggest ways to unite the American people behind the war effort. They conclude that the American people should be given more optimistic reports on the progress of the war.

November 3 - Vietnam War: Battle of Dak To begins - Around Dak To (located about 280 miles north of Saigon near the Cambodian border) heavy casualties are suffered on both sides (the Americans narrowly won the battle on November 22).

November 6 - Rhodesian parliament passes pro-Apartheid laws.

November 7 - US President Lyndon B. Johnson signs the Public Broadcasting Act of 1967, establishing the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

November 9 - Apollo program: NASA launches a Saturn V rocket carrying the unmanned Apollo 4 test spacecraft from Cape Kennedy.

November 11 - Vietnam War: In a propaganda ceremony in Phnom Penh, Cambodia, three American prisoners of war are released by the Viet Cong and turned over to "new left" antiwar activist Tom Hayden.

November 17 - Vietnam War: Acting on optimistic reports he was given on November 13, US President Lyndon B. Johnson tells his nation that, while much remained to be done, "We are inflicting greater losses than we're taking...We are making progress." (two months later the Tet Offensive made him regret his words).

November 21 - Vietnam War: American General William Westmoreland tells news reporters: "I am absolutely certain that whereas in 1965 the enemy was winning, today he is certainly losing."

November 22 - UN Security Council Resolution 242 is adopted by the UN Security Council, establishing a set of the principles aimed at guiding negotiations for an Arab-Israeli peace settlement.

November 29 - Vietnam War: US Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara announces his pending resignation and that he will become president of the World Bank. This action was the result of US President Lyndon B. Johnson's outright rejection of McNamara's early November recommendations to freeze troop levels, stop bombing North Vietnam and handing over ground fighting to South Vietnam.

November 30- The People's Republic of South Yemen becomes independent from the United Kingdom.

December 1 - Russell Tribunal in Sweden condemns USA for a mass murder in Vietnam.

December 3 - At Groote Schuur Hospital in Cape Town, South Africa, 53-year-old Lewis Washkansky becomes the first human to receive a heart transplant (however he died 18 days later from double pneumonia). The transplant team was headed by Christiaan Barnard.

December 3 - The luxury train 20th Century Limited completes its last run from New York City to Chicago, Illinois (the train was inaugurated on June 15, 1902).

December 4, 1850 hours - A volcano erupts on Deception Island in Antarctica.

December 4 - Vietnam War: US and South Vietnamese forces engage Viet Cong troops in the Mekong Delta (235 of the 300-strong Viet Cong battalion were killed).

December 9 - Nicolae Ceaucescu becomes the Chairman of the Romanian State Council - that is, de-facto dictator of Romania.

December 15 - Silver Bridge over Ohio River in Point Pleasant, West Virginia, collapses - 46 dead. It has been linked to the so-called Mothman mystery.

December 17 - Harold Holt, Australian prime minister, disappears when swimming at a beach 60 km from Melbourne.

December 19 - Professor John Archibald Wheeler uses the term Black Hole for the first time.

Those of us who lived thru 1968 remember that year as quite violent. Interestingly enough trans Saturn was in Aries that year, squaring the USA Sun in March. Also, I don't think I see it listed here, but LBJ at some point announced that he would not seek another term in office.

January 2 - Dr. Christian Barnard performs the first successful heart transplant.

January 5 - "Prague Spring" begins in Czechoslovakia

January 23 - North Korea seizes the USS Pueblo, claiming the ship violated its territorial waters while spying.

January 30 - Vietnam War: The Tet Offensive begin when Viet Cong forces launch series of a surprise attacks in South Vietnam.

January 31 - Viet Cong attack the United States embassy in Saigon

January 31 - Nauru's president Hammer DeRoburt declares independence from Australia

February 1 - Vietnam War: A Viet Cong officer is executed by Nguyen Ngoc Loan a South Vietnamese National Police Chief. The execution was videotaped and photographed and helped sway public opinion against the war.

February 8 - American civil rights movement: A civil rights protest staged at a white-only bowling alley in Orangeburg, South Carolina is broken-up by highway patrolmen leading to the deaths of three college students.

February 11 - Peggy Fleming wins Olympics figure skating gold medal, Grenoble, France.

February 11 - Israeli-Jordan border clashes.

February 11 - Madison Square Garden III closes, Madison Square Garden IV opens in New York.

February 16 - In Haleyville, Alabama the first 9-1-1 emergency telephone system goes into service.

February 17 - In Springfield, Massachusetts the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame opens.

February 24 - Vietnam War: The Tet Offensive is halted - South Vietnam recaptures Hué

March 7 - Vietnam War: The First Battle of Saigon begins.

March 12 - Mauritius achieves independence from British Rule.

March 16 - Vietnam War: My Lai massacre American troops kills scores of women and children.

March 18 - Gold standard: The United States Congress repeals the requirement for a gold reserve to back US currency.

March 31 - American President Lyndon Johnson announces he will not seek re-election.

April 3 - Martin Luther King Jr. delivers his "mountaintop" speech.

April 4 - Martin Luther King, Jr. is assassinated by James Earl Ray in Memphis, Tennessee.

April 11 - Premiere of the musical Hair on Broadway.

April 20 - Pierre Elliott Trudeau becomes Canada's fifteenth prime minister.

April 20 - English politician Enoch Powell makes controversial Rivers of Blood Speech

April 23-April 30 - Student protesters at Columbia University in New York City take over administration buildings and shut down the university.

April 29 - Official opening of the musical Hair on Broadway.

May - Student and worker strikes sometimes referred to as the French May nearly bring down the French government

May 22 - The nuclear-powered submarine the USS Scorpion sinks with 99 men aboard 400 miles southwest of the Azores.

June 5 - Robert F. Kennedy is assassinated by Sirhan Sirhan in Los Angeles, California.

June 20 - Austin Currie, Member of Parliament (MP) at Stormont in the six counties of northern Ireland, along with others, squats a house in Caledon to protest discrimination in housing allocations.

July 26 - Vietnam War: South Vietnamese opposition leader Truong Dinh Dzu is sentenced to five years hard labor for advocating the formation of a coalition government as a way to move toward an end to the war.

August 20 - 200,000 Warsaw Pact troops and 5,000 tanks invade Czechoslovakia to end the "Prague Spring" of political liberalization.

August 22-August 30 - Police clash with antiwar protesters in Chicago outside the 1968 Democratic National Convention

September 6 - Swaziland becomes independent.

Anyhow, if history repeats or echoes itself, this may give us some clues as to where the USA may be headed next. This too I got from Wikpedia. Trans Pluto left 22 deg of Virgo on Sept 25th.

From the Allilance for a New Humanity link:

http://www.anhglobal.org/anh2003/photos/ChopraGore753.html

Pat:

Thank you for the link. Some of my favourite
people are in those pictures!!!

...Moore vs. Disney...

http://www.yellowtimes.org/print.php?sid=1923

...this is when Kerry lost me.....Palestine is
STILL the problem....and he offers no hope or
solutions...

http://www.tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/10355/view/print

....more good reading....

http://www.progressive.org/june04/conn0604.html

....more good reading....

http://www.progressive.org/june04/conn0604.html

oops this should have been the second one ...
sorry...it too, is a good read...

http://www.progressive.org/june04/zinn0604.html

more on Kerry...

http://www.progressive.org/may04/conn0504.html

w v,

Solving the Israel-Palestinian issue? You're going to chuck Kerry overboard because of that? Okay, so tell me: how does one solve that issue while pleasing both sides enough to where they agree? It's only been happening in that region for decades, if not centuries, so it should be easy to answer, right? Oh, and you still have to solve it while pleasing all the disparate groups at home, plus those people who are just ITCHING to hate you (and withhold support) for SOMETHING. And don't forget the International Community. Piss them off and they could make it very difficult for us with trade, immigration issues, paying back debt or, in the case of America, loaning us money in the future.

I've always wondered how amazing and "successful" each of us would be if we held ourselves up to the same standards of honesty, decency, efficacy and hard work that we hold our Politicians.

Always nice to complain, though, isn't it?

Jonathan

It's also important to remember that there are groups that are ready on a daily basis, if not hourly, to cause violence to undo any agreement forged between the parties. That element does not want peace, but constant war.

I respect everyone's opinion, but please give Kerry a fair chance. He is walking the same thin tightrope as Howard Dean did and if he were as forthright as Dean, Kucinich or Sharpton, we might appreciate him, but he wouldn't win. And in this age of instant media distortion & reverberation, the Repug attack machine will latch on to anything & use it to make guacamole of him. Meanwhile, Bush's timing is as off as ever, further alienating the Arabs by saying today that we owe Rummy a debt of gratitute for his effectiveness, and I read he is due to go to Europe twice in June. What a depressing trip that will be for him with all of Europe protesting against him!!! I almost feel bad.

A Miami psychic, Jill Dahne, has on her website that she is worried we will be sending troops into N. Korean in Sept. Not to alarm anyone but this fits the planetary forecast. I hope she isn't right.

I just checked the site, and she also predicted that Bush would be elected to a second term, and Hillary would be the first woman President in 2008.

I believe it was May 7th in the late evening I was listening to CNN Paula Zahn and she was listing news blurbs and one of them was that the 9/11 black box that was found at the crash site (which one?) had been destroyed but that all the information on it had been written down.
I can't find anything else on it but I am sure they picked this time when there is so much attention on the tortures to pull off something of this sort.

Listened to fascist WABC talk radio with Monica Crowley curious to what the neo-con's are saying and I was digusted by her spin. Saying GWB was a 'very,very good man', that Iraqui prisoners were thugs so therefore 'subhuman'. She was coding her language of how stupid to have taken photos at the prison. Like yeah, for the future just keep it totally secret. Googled this @$#$%^ and she fits the neo-con Barbie Doll right out of the Ann Coutler Cookie Cutter Stepford Salon. But her eyes say: mean as they come. She's a 'not see' shilling for the war. I swear she was swooning over Bush. Euuuuuu.

This will give you some idea of the start of the
problem. The British were making agreements with
everyone without letting the parties know they
had other agreements. But the Balfour Declaration
Nov. 2, 1917 promised the Zionists/Jews a "home"
in Palestine NOT a "State". It went downhill from
there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_1917

The treaties of 1919 (Versailles) screwed everyone. The Brits gave Arabia to the Saud family
after they had promised Fasil the country. They
gave him Iraq, although he was from Mecca.
The movie "Most Dangerous Man" (Lawrence of Arabia) picks up where that movie ended.

You can probably watch the documentary "Palestine
Is Still the Problem" on John Pilger's website, or
if you have DirecTV, it is often seen on Link TV,
Ch.375 - you will also see a lot of other docs,
that will give you a whole new view of the world.
Other than Bill Moyers (NOW) and a few blogs, I have absolutely no faith in the American media.
I worked for it for 30+ years.

And from what I have read and continue to read
the Likud Party has absolutely NO plans to settle
this - in fact many of their top people want all
Arabs expelled from Israel and Palestine.

If they would turn over ALL of the settlements to
the Arabs, and move out, this mess would end in
24 hours. The Arabs are no more terrorists than'
the Zionists who have taken their land and continue to treat them as sub-humans.

To the Iraqis the USArmy are terrorists, and we
have treated them as sub-humans.

We can be idealistic all we want and lord knows I
try, but Kerry has not given us any idea of what
he plans to do, only that we will stay there and
send more troops. This morning on CNN Bill Schneider was trying very hard to find any differnces in foreign policy between Kerry and Bush...there aren't any, for the most part.
Sorry folks I don't see him as a man on a white
horse that will lead us out of the wilderness.
Spending $25 million to introduce himself to the
country is idiotic. The spots look like something
you would see at the convention before the candidate accepts the nomination.

WHERE ARE HIS IDEAS???

God knows I don't want to see Bush (re)elected.
But I don't see, yet, why I should back Kerry.
I will probably write in Kucinich. It will be
my first honest vote since I voted for Kennedy.
I am tired of voting for the lesser of two evils.
No wonder there are no heroes in this country any
more....who is there to respect?

Who inspires you?

Who do you look up to?

Certainly not anyone in the current three branches
of government. They should all be replaced. Let's
start with a clean slate. Electing Kerry just
won't do it.

http://johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.com/

Regarding the palestinian issue - I don't see it changing unless most in the area become spiritually evolved enough to give up the need to be right. We can talk about peace until we're blue in the face, but until each of the parties involved figures out a way to walk the talk of peace and the spirituality that they both claim, they're likely destined to repeat patterns that do little more than serve to teach those souls by experience.

And writing in Kucinich is writing in a vote for Bush. But, hey, at least you'll be honest with yourself, right?

Peace

LOL! Well here is Monica of WABC in the lizard lounge!

http://www.monicacrowley.org/images/Duran11.jpg

wv, it is thinking like that that puts dividers in office. It's thinking like that that put all the villans in office since the beginning of elections.

Jeannie, thanks for the great link to the New Humanity.

Corlionus, you are most welcome!

corleonis, my apologies for getting the spelling wrong on your name. :-/

WV, Did you see Bethcf4p's post above on some of the Kerry/Bush differences? I've copied it below for you just in case. As far as Kerry's other ideas, they're listed on www.JohnKerry.com. I have not read his positions in depth but know he has a jobs creation program, wants to give tax incentives to keep jobs in the U.S., and has a plan to close up the loopholes for companies who create tax shelters by getting an address in protected locations like the Cayman Islands, etc. As far as Iraq, the specifics have to be worked out there before we can leave them to chaos. They may just be worked out before our next election which would be credited to Bush's column. I know Kerry wants to us to stay at least until a viable government and security force is in place. It may all depend on the amount of Iraqui resistance. I had read that the Shia & Sunni (and, hopefully, Kurds)are forming their own pan-Iraqui government in order to force us out faster.

Regarding Jill Dahne, I hope she's wrong on all accounts, although I could live with Hillary being president.

Please don't feel like I am pressuring you. As I said, you are entitled to your position and I respect it. The difference as I see it between Kerry and Dean, Kucinich, Nader is that they really don't have anything to lose so they can say what they want...Kerry stands a lot to loose. I'm sure he is no angel and, as Sally as said, there may be dubious behavior back there waiting to surface in a scandal of sorts, but, until he becomes President, we will not really know what he's made of. I choose, based on his part behavior, to believe that he is worthy of admiration and respect and expect that to be demonstrated at the convention. If a scandal does surface, it may unfortunately discredit him but look at Clinton, he was an amazing leader in spite of his scandalous behavior.

Sharon K

Here's Beth's post:

I read that Wa Post article and I disagreed with it immediately. Compare these issues:

Environment: Kerry endorsed by League of Conservation Voters. Bush has oil executives imbedded in his cabinet.

Women's Rights: Kerry tried to get the ERA passed, stands up to conservative Catholics for womens' choice. Bush would appoint anti-choice judges to the supreme court.

Working Class: Kerry has consistently supported increases in mimiumum wage, and other progressive tax and economic plans to help low to middle income folks. Bush gives tax breaks to the wealthy.

Foreign Policy: Kerry is an internationalist with diplomatic experience (normalization of relations with Vietnam) Bush--enough said.

Death Penalty: Kerry bucks public opinion to stand against it. Bush has executed more than any politician I'm aware of.

There are HUGE moral and karmic differences between these two candidates.

Posted by: bethcf4p on May 9, 2004 11:51 PM

Read this about the "contractors" private military armies in Iraq ---connected to DeLay. Another sign that the right wing is so embedded in our government and wields such influence - I think it's worse than any of us have
fully understood.

From Salon (and if you have a chance read their article on how the right purposely lies to influence Americans)

"Blackwater, the firm that guards Coalition Provisional Authority chief Paul Bremer, and whose men were killed at Fallujah, has hired the well-connected Alexander Strategy Group to guide it through the current publicity storm and help influence Congress on whatever rules are generated to govern private militias in war zones, according to the Hill newspaper.

Alexander may turn out to be a clever choice: Ed Buckham, former chief of staff to House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, is Alexander's chairman. Tony Rudy, another former top DeLay operative, and Karl Gallant, who once ran DeLay's leadership PAC, are also onboard.

Blackwater also works other angles. One of the firm's founders is Michigan native Erik Prince, a former Navy SEAL. His father, Edgar Prince, helped religious right leader Gary Bauer found the Family Research Council in 1988. Erik Prince's sister, Betsy DeVos, is the chairwoman of the Michigan Republican Party. But Blackwater is a relative newcomer to the Washington influence game, especially compared with CACI and Titan, which have been trailblazers. "

more -

It occurs to me the only way to be rid of them and clean up the entire government is to declare republicans unlawful and have witchhunts as was done with communists and nazi sympathizers.

I'm not kidding.

If they are allowed to continue, and I dont see a way to stop them anymore - democracy in America is
going to have been a delusion of the past.

wow you guys the boards rocking!

jonathan i'm with you there about the pale-isr situation. they've been at it for THOUSANDS of years! let them fight and when the new jeruslem comes i hope i'm there.

bhakti, i sympathise with the vomit you had to smell via your ears of that kinda sicko woman on the radio. she's a possessed demon, you shouldn't even quote her on our holy board. death to the demon in her. asap.

bush and rummy are such pigs. remember today's pig is tomorrows bacon.

i agree wv, and the election is a crap shoot. if they find bin laden, and kill him (conflict of family iterest), or protect the country successfully with one of it's lame military gear that stops a missle, OR have a complete turn around in iraq, my ralphie doesn't have a chance. he's being interpreted as the anti war contestant, not a bad number to put your dice on considering the ....stars, i mean happenings....

but then maybe it is hopeless - maybe the sicko regime had these pictures done on purpose for two reasons

to get people used to the idea (of getting tortured by americans)
and
to plant wmds in the middle of the night. thank goodness allah doesn't see your bad actions (fighting) and you can do it at dark. i mean the admin is EVIL geniuses..satan at his loos-ed, coming to get america any last bit of good..what a horrifying vision..i can't see an easy smooth way out of the situation (kerry), and the repugs are being bullied in their own party, perhaps that's to get THEM used to the idea too, gerbels! and robot head arnold going to israel..(comes as a man of peace could apply to that stunt man)..but these are just nightmares.

"Today's pig is tomorrow's bacon." Roxanne you so make me laugh

yes and maybe we'll be eatin' pork for independence day:

june 5-8 bushie in europe to celebrate the nazis, then to eu summit in georgia! on an island! (saturn on his asc goes so close to there, looks like s.c. to me, but what's the state just under that?), and if we're not eating after that he's going to turkey from the 27-29th, setting him up to go iraq on his lucky day?????????????

amazing stuff. i know the 30th is suppose to be a real bad day for him, but what was the other one or two, was one of them the 9th? i think so in my foggy late nite memory...

A wise Native American Grandfather was discussing good and evil with his young grandson. He tells the boy how we all have two wolves inside of us struggling with each other. The first is the Wolf of peace, love, kindness and goodness. The other Wolf is fear, greed, hatred and evil. "Which wolf will win, Grandfather?" asks the young boy. "Whichever wolf we choose to feed,” replied the Grandfather

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/051104J.shtml

  AP President Proposes Media Lobby to Fight Government Secrecy

 Denouncing increased official secrecy, Associated Press President and CEO Tom Curley unveiled a plan Friday for a media advocacy center to lobby in Washington for open government.

    "The powerful have to be watched, and we are the watchers," Curley said, "and you don't need to have your notebook snatched by a policeman to know that keeping an eye on government activities has lately gotten a lot harder."

    At every level of government, records are being sealed and requests for information denied, and courts are imposing gag orders and sealing documents, Curley said, speaking in the Hays Press-Enterprise Lecture series.

    In the wake of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the news media remained largely silent on important issues, including secret arrests of suspects of Middle Eastern descent and closed deportation hearings, he said.

    "That was an extraordinary time for the country," he said. "It's entirely understandable - and reasonable - that the press and public were willing to step back for a time and give the government room to address an unknown and frightening threat."

    But Curley warned that a continued relaxation of vigilance by news organizations "could become a dangerous habit if we allow it to take hold, dangerous for us and the society in which we play such a critical role."

More...

Worth the membership or the day pass:

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2004/05/11/noise/print.html

The mighty windbags
Thirty years ago, conservatives embarked on a plan to subvert journalism and skew America to the right. They succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.

and...

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2004/05/11/right/print.html

In his 2003 book, "Blinded by the Right: The Conscience of an Ex-Conservative," former self-described "right-wing hit man" David Brock chronicled his flight of disillusionment from the conservative movement. Now, with his new book, "The Republican Noise Machine: Right-Wing Media and How It Corrupts Democracy," about to be published and the launching of his Web-based research and information center, Media Matters for America, Brock sees himself engaged in a 24/7 political war of images and ideas. It's a war, as Brock details in his new book, that conservatives have been waging, often brilliantly and effectively, for more than 30 years.

The right-wing media warfare naturally is most visible during presidential election years. "I've been saying for six months, no matter who was running for office this year, the right has a system in place to caricature that person," says Brock. "This is what I realized after 2000 -- that what happened to the Clintons during the '90s really had very little to do with the Clintons because the same thing happened to Gore in 2000. And then it happened to [Sen. Tom] Daschle when the Senate changed hands in 2001, and it happened to the mourners of [the late Sen.] Paul Wellstone in 2002. It goes on and on." After witnessing how this Republican "noise machine" again worked so well in shaping the caustic and undermining press coverage of Al Gore's presidential campaign in 2000, Brock is trying to awaken the public from slumber about these techniques.

More....

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/05/11/bulldozer/print.html

I have not had time to read all this thread and if this chart has already been discussed, I apolize.

If I have made a mistake in the date, please tell me. I could not find it for sure but had to deduce it as 4/28/2004 8:pm Edt DC.
But this is one of the heavest exactly aspected charts, I have seen. Oppositions Pluto to Venus 1 degree and Mars 3 degrees departing. Uranus opposed to Jupiter 2 degrees.
Conjunction: Venus and Mars by 3 degrees.
45 degrees: Uranus to Mercury. Sun to Mas. Saturn to Moon. all to 1 degree or less.
Sextiles: Uranus to Sun 3 degrees. Sun to Saturn 1 degrees. Saturn to Jupiter less than 1 degree.
Trians: grand Pluto-Moon-Mercury. Uranus to Saturn 2 degrees.
The Sun is in the 6th on the Decendent. The nodes are on the ascendent decendent axis.
This chart also has many transits to US July 4 chart. T Pluto to Neptune and opposed to Mars. T Neptune trian Saturn and inconjunct Sun. T Mars trian Moon. T Moon sq Moon Uranus sq. Jupiter.
I also use the articales of confideration as an alternative to July 4 chart. T SN to Sun. T Pluto sq. Mercury, venus and Mars. T Neptune to Venus. T Uranus to NN. T Mars conjunct Uranus. T venus opposed Saturn. T Moon sq Moon
Rumsfield: T Pluto trian Uranus. T Uranus to Neptune and T. Moon conjunct Jupiter.
Please correct any mistakes and I hope a few of you will give your insite into this interesting chart.
And maybe some of you might talke a look at progressions, arcs, etc.
I am not sure of where the cusps should be as this is program start, but may not reflect the time the pictures where shown. But if correct the Mars-Venus (the male and female soldier most prominent in the pictures) conjunction in the 8th are 45 degrees from the Sun in the 6h. (Commander in Chief and the Sun rules the 10th)

PS
On Rumsfield T Uranus is opposed to Natal Neptune. This aspect will last to the degree for about 2 more months. With Uranus making a station from June 6 to june 16. Retrograding on June 9. T. Neptune stations on May 11 to May 23. retrograding on May 17. Venus retrogrades on May 17.Note also that Mercury went direct on April 30. And it did take a few days for this really to brew hotly. In fact about the time of the solar eclisp on June 4th at 14 scopio, sq midpoint in july 4 of Jupiter/Neptune Leo.

Jean

There are some good editorials in todays' NY Times (www.NYTimes.com) --- nothing that we don't know already but it always makes me happy to see that paper's writers stand up for what's right. Paul Krugman's "Trust Me" is an endictment of the unilaterial rejection of checks and balances of the Bush administration. A separate editorial states that NY's decision to not allow protesters in Central Park during the Repug Convention is "unacceptable." Even David Brooks, the conservative, makes a good point by stating that we can win in Iraq by losing, even with the whole world hating us, if that means that they embrace free elections. Lastly, I liked Robert Reich's editorial, "The Mixed Up Battle of the Deficits" which discusses how role are reversed and Republican spending screws of the budget but they can rely on the next Democratic President to come in an clean it up. It also discusses Kerry's plan to follow Clinton's model. Reich, Clinton's Secretary of Labor, has recently written a book: "Reason: Why Liberals Will Win the Battle for America." http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/11/opinion/11REIC.html?th">http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/11/opinion/11REIC.html?th">http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/11/opinion/11REIC.html?th

Sorry, the link is http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/11/opinion/11REIC.html?th

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2903288.php

Editorial: A failure of leadership at the highest levels

Around the halls of the Pentagon, a term of caustic derision has emerged for the enlisted soldiers at the heart of the furor over the Abu Ghraib prison scandal: the six morons who lost the war.

Indeed, the damage done to the U.S. military and the nation as a whole by the horrifying photographs of U.S. soldiers abusing Iraqi detainees at the notorious prison is incalculable.

But the folks in the Pentagon are talking about the wrong morons.

There is no excuse for the behavior displayed by soldiers in the now-infamous pictures and an even more damning report by Army Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba. Every soldier involved should be ashamed.

But while responsibility begins with the six soldiers facing criminal charges, it extends all the way up the chain of command to the highest reaches of the military hierarchy and its civilian leadership.

The entire affair is a failure of leadership from start to finish. From the moment they are captured, prisoners are hooded, shackled and isolated. The message to the troops: Anything goes.

In addition to the scores of prisoners who were humiliated and demeaned, at least 14 have died in custody in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Army has ruled at least two of those homicides. This is not the way a free people keeps its captives or wins the hearts and minds of a suspicious world.

How tragically ironic that the American military, which was welcomed to Baghdad by the euphoric Iraqi people a year ago as a liberating force that ended 30 years of tyranny, would today stand guilty of dehumanizing torture in the same Abu Ghraib prison used by Saddam Hussein’s henchmen.

One can only wonder why the prison wasn’t razed in the wake of the invasion as a symbolic stake through the heart of the Baathist regime.

More....

http://home.att.net/~professorboris/SPECTRE/JohnsonCity.htm
I dunno.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/latimests/20040511/ts_latimes/bushviewsmorephotos

link posted off Drudge - so these are our "values" I guess. My mind boggles thinking how this plays in the Muslim world. The article reads straight through just like this, from point to point...

"Before viewing the images in Rumsfeld's office, Bush read a 12-minute statement to a small group of reporters that praised the secretary of Defense for "courageously leading our nation in the war against terror."

"You're doing a superb job," Bush said in his strongest statement of support since the scandal erupted. "You are a strong secretary of Defense, and our nation owes you a debt of gratitude."

A military official who has seen the photos said that one depicts soldiers sodomizing prisoners with chemical lights and another depicts sex between two U.S. soldiers. The official could not confirm a CNN report that said a video exists that shows guards fondling and kissing a female detainee.

"They apparently show some fooling around and some horseplay. There are some that show detainee abuse," the official said. He added that of the more than 1,200 images being reviewed by Pentagon investigators, fewer than 400 are "bad."

Miss Tery....wow.

"FEWER" THAN 400 ARE BAD"

I'M SHRIEKING. I"M SWEARING

UNBELIEVABLE.

and on tv right now the congressional hearing of
Gen. Taguba and Lindsey Graham that pillar of moral ineptitude is saying Rumsfeld shouldn't be blamed, after all, he's running the whole war"

Yes he is. So then, who else should be blamed for
one pluckup after another, if not him?

actually, none of this stuff is going to matter because the stock market crash will bring another "terrorist attack", any day now.

May 16/ 17th. Sally, where was your analysis of this time frame? Anybody? Thanks.

TO ALL: I can't resist sharing this article with you all as I see some comments here about conservatives. Ran across it late last summer,but it is still very timely. I wonder if this is really where the majority of Americans are. I think the conservative "powers that be" tell us it is so, and then manipulate voting to make it appear that way (2002 congressional, 2000 presidential). "Conservative Deconstructed" http://www.inthesetimes.com/firststone/comments.php?id=371_0_8_0_C

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

WATCH/LISTEN?
VIDEO CHOICE
Abuse policy 'goes straight to Pentagon' journalist claims

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4947667/

The largely hidden array includes three systems that only rarely overlap: the Pentagon-run network of prisons, jails and holding facilities in Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantanamo and elsewhere; small and secret CIA-run facilities where top al Qaeda and other figures are kept; and interrogation rooms of foreign intelligence services -- some with documented records of torture -- to which the U.S. government delivers or "renders" mid- or low-level terrorism suspects for questioning.

All told, more than 9,000 people are held by U.S. authorities overseas, according to Pentagon figures and estimates by intelligence experts, the vast majority under military control. The detainees have no conventional legal rights: no access to a lawyer; no chance for an impartial hearing; and at least in the case of prisoners held in cellblock 1A at Abu Ghraib, no apparent guarantee of humane treatment accorded prisoners of war under the Geneva Conventions or civilians in U.S. jails.

Although some of those held by the military in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo have had visits by the International Committee of the Red Cross, some of the CIA's detainees have, in effect, disappeared, according to interviews with former and current national security officials and to the Army's report of abuses at Abu Ghraib.

The CIA's "ghost detainees," as they were called by members of the 800th MP Brigade, were routinely held by the soldier-guards at Abu Ghraib "without accounting for them, knowing their identities, or even the reason for their detention," the report says. These phantom captives were "moved around within the facility to hide them" from Red Cross teams, a tactic that was "deceptive, contrary to Army doctrine, and in violation of international law."

snip

None of the arrangements that permit U.S. personnel to kidnap, transport, interrogate and hold foreigners are ad hoc or unauthorized, including the so-called renditions. "People tend to regard it as an extra-judicial kidnapping; it's not," former CIA officer Peter Probst said. "There is a long history of this. It has been done for decades. It's absolutely legal."

In fact, every aspect of this new universe -- including maintenance of covert airlines to fly prisoners from place to place, interrogation rules and the legal justification for holding foreigners without due process afforded most U.S. citizens -- has been developed by military or CIA lawyers, vetted by Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel and, depending on the particular issue, approved by White House General Counsel's Office or the president himself.

http://www.newsday.com/news/printedition/nation/ny-prisongallery0506,0,5296184.photogallery?coll=ny-nationalnews-print

photos and who's who

JoannaOregon: Thanks so much for the aquasoul link. Very interesting. His "From Vengeance to Values" was very good too (5-4-04).

watching nightline last nite was a real eye opener...

it's just unbelievable but the truth is that whether it's bush or KERRY in november the draft WILL BE Implemented!!!! they had a well respected dem congressman on last nite who kerry will listen to and he said the draft is a must..

so fuck everybody...if people don't put nader on the ballot and vote for him and people like michael moore who is sitting on his hands telling people to register to vote (vote for fuckin who?), then it's just disgusting, and everybody, all of you who vote repug or dem are just being americans, a nice war, a lot of death..when will everyone wake up to what will happen if nader is NOT president, when????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Hi Sharon Katz: In Jan. 04 I googled alot for U.S. Trends from psychic's to see if there was anything new. I don't know if I got the one you listed above but, but found many who predicted that Bush would win re-election.MANY! I became so distraught, even physically ill, that I had to stop reading the stuff. Since we create our future, let's hope that if they all did reading's today, they would see him out. I wonder if any voter who cares about our collective future, would want a continuation of the darkness we have experienced for the last 3 1/2 years, conservative or liberal. However, it is fun to read the predictions, and I will continue to do so, but think they have their biases too. Sharon K., I posted questions a couple of articles back about Elizabeth Joyce prediction for 2004 Presidential Race. No one commented on them. But I still want to know what you all think about her saying that Bush would step down, and that Wesley Clark would be our next President. Bush bowing out or stepping down wouldn't surprise me, but the Wesley Clark thing is astounding. Do you remember when I posted about this? I don't have the link with me, but could find it if you want to read about it. Let me know. Also Sharon, are you the new SHADE or is that our other Sharon (my neighbor from the Great Lakes area). Or do we have a new poster. I thought you said your were going to be SHADE.

Wow, I'm convinced Roxanne.

Pat: I should have addressed my post to you also on the Bush re-election. I got confused about names/and who posted. Hope everybody reads everything here, just like I do, so you won't miss it.

Beverly, no worries!!

Yes, Beverly I became Shade. Just wanted to make it easier for everyone.

Shade formerly known as Sharon

Peg, in part this is what I said about the April, May, June period. I cannot find it now but the May 14 to 17th period is pretty bad however Bush will come out of that period for a time without serious damage because of Jupiter conj. his Mars and Saturn sextiling it, after that, as Saturn moves to 10 degrees Cancer with Mars on his heels things really fall apart for Bush. I think he will recover some but I still say his waterloo is closer to Aug, Sept or Oct. The following excerpt is from Riders of the Storm III

"MARCH, APRIL, MAY AND JUNE

March is nearly over except Pluto is going retrograde in a nearly exact square to the US Neptune, letting us know something down the road is coming. The station of Pluto is on Messer21, discovered by Charles Messer in 1754, a huge and bright concentration of stars, including the malefic fixed star Rasalhague. These are the months to watch and I will write more as they unfold.

Constellation: "It is said to give a passionate, blindly good-hearted, wasteful and easily seduced nature, together with little happiness, unseen dangers, enmity, strife and slander. Pliny said that it occasioned much mortality by poisoning. This constellation has also been called Aesculapius and held to rule medicines. By the Kabalists it is associated with the Hebrew letter Oin and the 16th Tarot Trump, The Lightning Struck Tower". (Robson)."

Bush's Mars line goes right through Baghdad and it crosses his Pluto/MC in Saudia Arabia, I would say he is being 'stabbed' in the back from Saudia Arabia. In Saudia Arabia his Pluto and Venus lines cross there with Mercury/MC and Pluto/MC going right through them. Lots of intrigue going on in Saudia Arabia for Bush and he is in a dangerous balancing act with them.

Rumsfeld's Neptune goes through Baghdad and crossing his Mercury/IC it's all very confusing for him. Rummy might be losing it as we speak.
Transiting Uranus is in a square to his Neptune, and as Saturn gets closer to his Sun/Pluto conj. at 17/21 respectively in Cancer, he might be thinking that 'falling on his sword' to be a literal option.

aahhh. the subtlety of the Brits...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stevebell/0,7371,1214128,00.html

Roxanne,

Many times people will write things I disagree with, and that's fine because this board, above all things, is democratic, a forum to vent one's views, hopefully share one's astrological insight or, in my case, learn more and more about astrology and enjoy themselves among hopefully like-minded, non-judgemental people. But, after reading

"so fuck everybody...if people don't put nader on the ballot and vote for him and people like michael moore who is sitting on his hands telling people to register to vote (vote for fuckin who?), then it's just disgusting, and everybody, all of you who vote repug or dem are just being americans, a nice war, a lot of death.."

I felt I had to speak. So, if I don't vote for Nader, then I'm "disgusting" and being nothing but "an american, a nice way, a lot of death"? How DARE you Roxanne?! Your last e.mail is a personal afront to all those who patiently put up with your borishly myopic view of Nader, your continued tortured syntax and misspellings, your pushing and pushing and pushing YOUR views down everyone's throats. How DARE you?! If you had any class whatsoever, you would immediately issue an apology and retract your previous statement. To do anything less would be, well, disgusting. Be a cheerleader for your candidate, by all means, but ... this? This has gone too far.

I guess one could congratulate you for once again offering something so ridiculous that, like a desperate emotionally starved 2 year old, you once again get our attention.

Where's the Moderator of this Board, anyway?

Jonathan

I agree with Jonathan. I was very offended and I'm not easily offended.

Roxanne and Jonathan - can we tone it down a bit? We all want the same end result - peace and sanity. Thanks :)

Hey, don't go after Jonathan.

Roxanne's post was waaaaaaaaaay over the line.

~D

Ahemmmm, confrontation makes me a little nervous. I was thinking about what I was going to say in response to Roxanne and then read Jonathan's post. I'm not going to comment on the emotions being expressed. I would just like to say that in all reality:
1) It's very unfortunate and sad but I believe we are going to need the draft since we seem to be greatly overextended, weakened and unprepared for the real thing, if it should, G-d forbid, happen. For example...N. Korea. Therefore, I will advise my stepson to stay in college and apply for graduate school and/or leave the country. He will make his own decision.
2) I understand Roxanne's very intense 11th house hope, dream, wish, desire that we have a progressive leader (I guess my dream candidate would be Kucinich), and I truly empathize, but, dear Roxanne, Nader does not have a chance because he doesn't have the experience and he is too left wing. He is right now suing Texas and whomever else for requiring him to need 50,000 signature to get on their ballot. How constructive is that? Does he see the forest? And, as Howard Dean has said, a vote for Nader or any other 3rd party candidate is a vote for Bush. I truly feel that the Democratic candidate, whomever he may be, is our only hope.
3) Psychics aside, Beverly (and they are often wrong, as are astrologers), there is actually a good chance Bush will be re-elected and the only thing good people of moral conscious can do is work their asses off for the Democratic candidate, or at least promote he/she with buttons, bumper stickers and yard signs, and, at the minimum vote for them. Whoever our leader is reflects who we are, our lack of responsibility in creating change, and the confused, fear-based thinking of many. We will get who we deserve, in my opinion. Collectively, we may have to fall a little farther until we hit bottom and see the need for change, but I will not entertain that type of thinking. I am working for John Kerry's campaign.
4) Beverly, I think there are 2 Sharons: Shade aka Sharon, and, me, Sharon Katz. If there are any more Sharons, please raise your hand.
5) I wasn't going to say anything about the emotions flying, but I changed my mind. I wish Roxanne and Jonathan would apologize to each other!
Peace & Love,
Sharon Katz

Jeanie,

If my email offended you, I apologize. I went out of my way to express my outrage at Roxanne's insensitivity while still trying to remain as polite and respectful as possible. We all do want the same end result, but I believe we can still respect people's differences without gratuitous profanity and disrespectful name-calling.

Jonathan

Nader ain't Jesus, Roxanne, there's no one coming to save you, but yourself.

Rude and offensive I can get all over, I come herwe for intelligence. Please stop proslytiing your canditate. Thanks.

IMHO Jonathan only expressed what most of us are feeling and, to his immaculate credit, he went out of his way to be articulate and polite. He showed a remarkable amount of restraint and courtesy, something that Roxanne's post didn't even attempt. On the contrary, her post could have had no motive other than to try and get a rise out of everyone here. Even people who might agree with her she could count on to offend by beginning with "fuck everybody."

The only reason I didn't say the same thing as Jonathan is because Roxanne got me so twisted previously that I posted a 600+ word rant in "cognitive dissonance" and afterword vowed that she would not make me lose my temper again. My daily word this morning was "forgive."

While we must be careful who we label "troll" I think she's shown her true colors. There ARE personalities that want nothing more than to cause disruption, and look how well she's succeeded.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

~D

Woops, I'm apologizing for the spelling errors.

Dommael,

Thank you for your kind words, Dommael (and those others who've offered support). From this moment forward, I won't be responding to Posts that appear to be solely written to raise one's ire or distract from the original discussion. If I only knew more astrology, I could weigh in on that vein. Sadly, though, I'm still an amateur in that regard. So, watch me as I now disappear into the status of "lurker". Going, going ... gone.

:-)

Jonathan

This was a post BY Noel Tyle on his forum. Very interesting.
------------------------------------------------
Re: Rumsfeld data/ANALYSIS
Posted by Noel Tyl on Tuesday, 11 May 2004, at 2:27 p.m., in response to Rumsfeld data, posted by Watcher on Tuesday, 11 May 2004, at 1:52 p.m.
Your data are the accepted data.
[July 9, 1932 at 5:40 PM, CDT in chicago.]
Presently:
SA Pluto exactly conjunct Rumsfeld's Moon at the Midheaven! [enormous event apex in life; tremendous challenge to values; upheaval]
SA Venus exactly square the Ascendant (popularity; being appreciated), and SA Moon exactly opposed Mars on the Descendant emotional excitement and conviction).
And --even more-- ALL EXACT: SA Neptune q=Venus, ruling the the Midheaven (bizarre, underhanded events, pruriently sexual); SA Mars=Jupiter, ruler of the Ascendant (clearing the air, a fortunate course of action).
SA MC exactly conjunct his Ascendant (Identity awareness for better or worse)
--These are mighty, mighty arc configurations for sure.
SA Sun will conjoin the MC in September 2007, the Sun ruling the 9th (a tell-all book, surely; his place in the sun).
Presently: Tr Pluto is squaring the nodal axis (publicity).
Tr Uranus is opposing Neptune (justice enforced).
Tr Saturn will conjoin his Sun-Pluto conjunction throughout July and the beginning of August, 2004 (life crystallization, incorporating great loss, and possible ill health, with Pluto ruling the 12th).
Noel Tyl

Jean

Jonathan, stick around and post. I enjoy you posts.

http://www.nationinstitute.org/tomdispatch/index.mhtml?emx=x&pid=1434

LeVine, On thinking about war crimes

Here was part of a May 4 conversation between Larry King and Colin Powell on Larry King Live about the photos from Abu Ghraib, and it was distinctly from the "a-few-bad-eggs" school of Iraqi analysis:

"KING: Let's go one by one. First, let's discuss the abuse of the Iraqi prisoners. I know you've called it despicable acts. Now, you've had a career in the military, served in Vietnam twice. Did you ever see anything like this?

"POWELL: No.

"KING: Ever have a subordinate do anything like this?

"POWELL: No.

"KING: What do you make of it. What's your view?

"POWELL: I don't know what to make of it. I'm shocked. I mean, I was in a unit that was responsible for My Lai. I got there after My Lai happened. So, in war these sorts of horrible things happen every now and again, but they're still to be deplored. And what happened in this particular instance, as best I know from the pictures, was just totally despicable. There's no way to describe it. And it isn't just the fact that soldiers did it, but no American should do this to any other person.

More....

...it only gets worse....

http://www.yellowtimes.org/print.php?sid=1924

I want to say something to defend Roxanne. She was expressing herself in an earthy way but I'm sure meant nothing personal. Lots of people say "fuck you" as an expression and don't mean anything by it. As far as Roxanne's affinity for Nader, he is a pretty admirable guy and I see his point in trying to be a pioneer for a new, progressive voice, but it just seems he is wearing the proverbial rose-colored glasses, as may be Roxanne.

I just looked at a poll done some time in april by Zogbe on line. So it only contacts those on line which means that it is somewhat invalid. But the bottom line the poll showed that the people did not really approve of either Bush, Kerry or Nadier, in about equal disapproval.

This may explain those who don't see Kerry on the ballot in Nov.

Jonathan, I'm not upset with you at all, and I wasn't personally offended - my comment was merely an attempt to short circuit the anger/baiting. Thanks for the offer of apology though.
Sad that society in general seems to have lost its 'manners' when voicing valid opinions. Roxanne, profanity has drowned out your message. Love and respect win the peace - lets all try to walk the talk as best we can.

I trust verbal abuse will not reappear on this board.

Jonathan, please stay with us. We enjoy and benefit from your posts.

oh boy...ok i apologize for the misspelled words and syntax, but i am NOT going to apologize for informing you all that last nite on nightline a high ranking DEMOCRAT official said the only way to win the war was to have a draft.

read that last sentence over and over again until it sinks in, is that possible? good, that's a good first step.

sorry people who hate bad news and can't accept it, i am not apologizing for saying what happened last night on abc tv that you cannot see or hear because of my emotions, curse words and 'pushing' of nader who is a bit more EXPERIENCED than george bush (and kerry) at doing things for the people, a civil servant which is what the oval office is suppose to be about.

so go ahead vote for kerry, but don't take to the streets in protest of the draft because you are hypocrites to do that.

if you think that wanting a peace candidate and being OUTRAGED that there is a good chance of a draft is being an emotionally starved 2 year old, then all your correctly spelled words (probably from spell check), won't save you from being thick, at the end of the day, and living in a country that is hated around the world, for the actions, and people within it who can't see the forest for the trees.

i understand it's difficult to accept but don't get angry with ME, i'm not the dem politician who went on tv last night and put the writing on the wall.

i expected a reaction of outrage with me, you all disappoint me. perhaps you're all too political and just rooting for a football team. but some here say they're anti- this iraq war, i just don't get it.

Hey go vote: www.cnn.com

Are U.S. goals in Iraq worth the cost?

Yes 27% 2450 votes

No 73% 6682 votes
Total: 9132 votes

Sharon Katz and Anyone Else: Thanks for your comments above. Kucinich is the one I choose also, but will do what I can to help Democrats. It is imperative that we do whatever we can to regain seats in Congress where so much destructive, one-sided, lop-sided legislation has orginated from a Republican control. However, I do not think or feel, that Bush has a "good chance" of being re-elected. I don't think he will ever recover from past scandals, present scandals, and near-future scandals, even if the truth of the scandals are never revealed. He has wrecked to much havoc here and internationally to be returned to the Whitehouse. That's just my opinion. I also base my opinion on the upsurge in anti-Bush sentimnet I have noticed coming from all quarters for the last 12-16 months. The polls are just a bunch of lies promoted by the conservative broadcasters designed to make Bush look good. For another fun and interesting analysis of Bush/Kerry 2004 see Doug Riemer's http://www.vedicpredictiveastrology.com ..........He has been keeping ongoing articles on the Bush Presidency since 2002. They are all relevant even if old.. Also, he has some interesting comments on citizenship karma, responsibility, and voting which I have never heard anyone discuss. His most recent article has a pretty, colored map showing red sates, and blue state and astrocartography lines for Bush and Kerry as they relate. Very interesting. Also check out his new "Celestial Wheel" for current plantery issues. He has an opinion there on Rumsfeld's current woes. Click FORECASTS for Bush/Kerry 2004 Vedic reports. I know that none of us here need to be reminded or told about responsibility, but found the karma issue about citizenship profound. That's the only reason I bring it up.

and for those who understand what i'm saying, thank you.

between reading articles last nite of how the 90% of falsely taken 'prisoners' were treated and then watching the dem on nightline, i just completely lost it.

for those who don't understand me, just ignore me, and vote for kerry, and keep complaining, and go on as you are. i'm sure there will be loads more to complain about in the coming four years, so you'll have a ball!

i think my sarcasm is totally in line for being attacked and insulted merely because i am outraged at a draft. i may as well be on a republican war monger board with some of you.

Well Roxanne, reality is, this time we can (it appears) vote for Kerry, Bush, or Nader. Since a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush, that leaves only one choice if you don't want another four years and death of democracy in total. That would be Kerry. I'm choosing Kerry. Tearing down Kerry is only helpful to Bush because Nader is not Presidential material.

You can shout to the rooftops and Nader will still be Nader. He can defeat Kerry only by dividing votes and giving us the "gift" of another four years of Bush. That is reality.

http://www.robertscheer.com/

Thread of Abuse Runs to the Oval Office

Phony justifications for war led to brutal intelligence-gathering techniques

Someone's lying – big-time – and neither Congress nor the media have begun to scratch the surface. Clearly we now know enough to stipulate that the several low-ranking alleged sadists charged in the Iraq torture scandal did not control the wing of the prison in which they openly and proudly did the devil's work.

That power was in the hands of high-ranking U.S. military intelligence officers who established abusive conditions that were condemned by the Red Cross in a complaint to U.S. authorities well before the horrid incidents that recently shocked the nation.

The Red Cross complaint – and a follow-up report that was made available to the administration in February and obtained by the Wall Street Journal this week – raises the sobering possibility that these low-level members of the military police in Iraq may be right in claiming that they were just following orders of their superiors.

According to the report, the organization's delegates visited Abu Ghraib in October 2003 and witnessed "the practice of keeping persons deprived of their liberty completely naked in totally empty concrete cells and in total darkness" for days.

"Upon witnessing such cases, the [Red Cross] interrupted its visits and requested an explanation from the authorities. The military intelligence officer in charge of interrogation explained that this practice was 'part of the process.'" The report said that what Red Cross representatives saw "went beyond exceptional cases" and was "in some cases tantamount to torture."

The Red Cross complained directly to the authorities at that time, two months before the now-infamous photographs were taken.

The White House and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld have for months stubbornly ignored and kept from the public the conclusions of both the Red Cross report and the even more damning internal report done by Army Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba for the Pentagon in March.

More....

Roxanne, I share your utter dismay at the thought of a draft. The real problem is that the majority of the population in general are addicted to the 'glory' of their military, and that tail is wagging the dog whether we like it or not. The fact that it is soooooo profitable for sooooooo many, makes the prospect of downsizing formidable. One man simply ain't going to be able to solve the problem, no matter how much he wants to - he either must cater to the addiction to get elected, and then attempt to begin to solve some of the problem (remember how disparaged Clinton was for downsizing?) or not get elected to begin with.
We all have the responsibility to figure out creative ways to solve world conflict in another way - and that will take extraordinary international diplomacy, combined with a second front strategy of getting people elected/appointed into government at all levels who are, above all, there for altruist motives, and who have the ability to plan for the future in generational terms, not just the next election cycle. They will then be in a position to be able to begin cutting the funding that drives the military mammoth that is now wagging the dog.
Short of utter chaos, that is the only way I see that wise, long term and complete change can happen.

Pat, i'm sorry to hear you're for the draft and will vote for it. that's blood on your hands just like bush's.

I truly like the Doug Riemer stuff, Beverly, and dearly hope that he is right. Much of what he says coincides with what's been said in the articles here. I will pray and envision these results and do everything I can to see that Bush is defeated.

Sharon K

By the way, B., where on his site is the article about karma, citizenship & responsibility?

Thanks!

Interesting thought (as I step out of my lurker phase for a second): if someone voted for, say, a Third Party Candidate in the 2000 Election (say, for the sake of argument, Nader) who undoubtedly took votes from the Democratic Nominee and helped put Bush in office, would that give them "blood on their hands" because of Bush's Iraq war?

Before you begin accusing people of having blood on their hands, you better check your own, Roxanne. They may be messier than you think.

Jonathan, there it is.

Adrian Duncan has some astrology writing on America's "Military Shake-up" included in a report on John Kerry 2004. It may help to quell your fear's about a draft, although I do not rule it out myself in view of Mark Lerner's astrology articles on Martial Law, which has been a big concern of mine. We are about an inch away from it. See the link I posted on Sally's "Riders IV" article (most recent) at the end.

Roxanne, remember it is the congress who gets to vote yea or nay on any draft authorization, and they also have the ability to override any presidential veto. Now if Nader were to focus on building common sense congressional representation like Dean is doing, I'd be behind him in a heartbeat.

Oh, but Jonathan, I thought it was the "biggest bloodless coup in history"..you can't have it both ways.

Now, to say a vote for nader is a vote for bush, is just the tiresome, backward, stultified sentence of a brainwashed robot.

Now, stop being angry with me for something a dem said last nite. face it face it face it....it's real.

hey jeanie, i know but if a 'liberal' in the oval office calls for a draft because he must, and is advised to do so, will anyone really say no? especially since most of them will probably still be repubs anyway?

it's all a sham. i don't know why i even bother believing in the system. the repubs have their miserable lot brainwashed, and so do the dems, only 7 per cent of the country is awake it seems, and anti-(absurd) war. although to me no war is justified, but that's a personal thing.

Roxanne,

Your anger, your vitriol, your unwillingness to admit that you MIGHT be wrong and your pigheaded insistence that YOU are right and everyone else is "disgusting" if they vote differently from you has truly, TRULY ruined this Board for me. I'm so friggin' weary of all this bullshit. I'm heading over to a moderated board where trash and drivel are usually excised to the betterment of all and I can continue my astrology studies. Happy?

Pat: I appreciated comments about the Red Cross. Had to leave the house this morning to get away from the hearings. I also understand that David Kay reported on prisoner abuse when he returned from Iraq but have not heard it mentioned in the news. I found this on a website about 2 days ago. If anyone wants will try to locate again. Apparently he was ignored too. Seymour Hirsh did a brief interview with Lisa Mullins, PRI,BBC (The World) yesterday evening and told her the additional videos have sound recordings with them. They are awful. He talked about the military dogs, and prisoner's abuse by them including bites. Just awful. According to him people do have E-Mails of the original videos/photos (this second batch) that were sent from Iraq to friends and family here so these may make it out yet eventhough the Pentagon will try to withhold them. Has anyone heard anything about this? Does anyone think that this whole prisoner scandal was orchestrated by the "covert government" to further weaken/destroy America? To turn our attention away from 9/11 investigations as they were just getting to NORAD standing down?

i said and i repeat do not be angry at me with what a dem said last nite..why can't you just HEAR that?

i am not "wrong": go and order a transcript of last night's show. what is UP with you? i have no anger or vitriol to anyone except someone for the war. if that's you, ok it's you. i just don't understand why you don't understand what i'm saying...i'm not speaking a foreign language am i?

you have some kind of personal problem, akin to the repubs who can't admit if someone in their party does something blatantly wrong. it's the exact same behavior. this has nothing to do with me at all.

Sharon K. and anyone else: To find citizenship karma, etc.
Go back to link above and click on Archives. Hit your end of page key and come up from there. It is rather long but is absolutely wonderful. Would welcome any comments you have about it.

This article pretty well sums up everything
we have been saying lately...a good read

http://www.yellowtimes.org/print.php?sid=1926

Roxanne, it's been said, we cannot solve the problems of today by looking at things in the same way as the thinking that brought us here in the first place (or something to that effect). What you seem to be saying is, my guy is better than your guy and here's why I think that, and that's that, so there. It's another version of I'm right, you're wrong, and unless you agree with me I'm going to fight you over it. And that's been the fundametal political problem for humanity since we've been recording history, and which has created wars in the first place.
Could it be possible that the only way to solve today's problems is for all enlightened beings to find a way to teach others that there is truth within all our opinions? And the only way forward is to find a way to mesh the best of all ideas in a cooperative manner without denigrating another?

Jo

Where are you??? We miss your sagacity...much
more, we need it!

wv, I miss Jo too - I didn't realize she was another sag!

no jeanie, if i am doing that today, you must notice that i was not HAPPY to find my proof that i might be 'right' and telling you all because of nightline last nite..did i sound happy about the dem saying that? so therein lies your answer if this is about my ego and my 'candidate' or simply what i think is right for everyone. i'm very sad jonathan hates me just because i'm trying to get him to understand that this may very well happen with kerry as president. but he should take that up with his party that he is so proud of, not with me. he really hurt my feelings which i repeat were not based on bragadoccio that only MY candidate is the real peace one, it is based on utter DESPAIR!

Remember how the Repugs were and maybe still are saying that Clinton could have gotten Osama Bin Laden? Well, looks like Bush could have gotten Zarqawi, way before he cut off poor Nick Berg's head. Which btw, has me realing today. The body was found over the weekend. I am sure there is an Algol connection somewhere there.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/

Anyhow, perhaps something is in today's stars. I had a meltdown earlier, about the same time as Pallas did over something said during the Taguga hearings by a Sen. from Oklahoma, Inholf something or other. What an absolute asshole. Chastised the Kerry campaign for using the prison abuse scandal as a campaing issue. GOP, pass the buck party, that's them. I'll leave that one before I send myself into premature menopause, sigh.

Anyhow, I was alerted to the draft issue thru the Michael C. Ruppert website. He called it so awhile back saying the draft would be reinstated whether Bush or Kerry won the election this fall. You have to remember that Bush Admin passed some laws, I think it was back in 02, that would inhibit one from going to Canada to escape some future draft. The congress has also set aside money to reinstate it at some future date.

The people most eligible for this draft will be the Pluto in Scorpio generation. In a strange way, I do not think this is accidental, but more like some vast karmic fate in play.

Whoa Jonathan, come back!!!!

Roxanne, please read your first post and then the posts sent right after. Four good people were saying that the offensive language was a problem. All the rest of the posts sent to us is about not taking responsibility for this and dodging. Just what you write to us that you don't like in the government and complain about while pushing your agenda in our face. I mostly ignore the nonsnese but just kept hoping you'd take responsibility for poor actions taken this evening. That's all, please stop fingerpointing with such hostility it's not very christian-like.

Roxanne,

I'm sorry if your feelings got hurt. That, of course, was not my intention. But one must admit that if one writes something that is blatantly confrontational, that it then becomes a bit of a stretch to wonder why someone might be "attacking" them. I've never doubted what you saw on Nightline. And, if you take a minute and read my posts, you'll notice that I never doubted what that one Democrat said. What I take issue with is the choice of words you used to describe those that might think differently than you. "Disgusting", "hypocrite", "thick", "blood on your hands", etc. It's my belief those adjectives have no place in what is to be a civil discussion. And please don't for a minute surmise that I have some personal problem because I disagree with you. To boldly assume my support of Kerry or any other Democrat is somehow support for the war makes about as much sense as saying because you voted for Nader in 2000 that you helped put Bush in Office.

Again, Roxanne, some have said the Draft may be reinstated. That doesn't make it fact. And I don't hate you. To say I do is unfair to me. Please don't assume so much about me. The smarter thing to do would be to ask me "do you hate me?" and allow me to answer for myself.

Jonathan

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/nation/8639063.htm

NEW YORK - Air Force Capt. Richard Storr endured 33 days of torture at the hands of Iraqis during the Persian Gulf War 13 years ago. He knew firsthand the cruelty sanctioned by Saddam Hussein and believed that the U.S. was right to go to war again in Iraq.

When he heard the allegations and saw photographs of American soldiers abusing Iraqi POWs, Storr was filled with shame and empathy.

"For those of us that have been there, I just felt horrible for those guys," Storr said of the prisoners.

"What I did see in those pictures I thought was just awful," said Storr, 42, of Spokane, Wash. "There is absolutely no reason for those prisoners to receive that kind of treatment.

The pilot of an A-10 Thunderbolt aircraft, he was captured Feb. 2, 1991, when his plane was shot down over Kuwait.

He was taken to Baghdad and handed over to Saddam's secret police for interrogation.

They broke his nose, dislocated his shoulder and punctured his eardrum.

When his answers were unsatisfactory, he was shocked with an electric prod.

He was always blindfolded, handcuffed, cold and hungry during his captivity, which ended March 6, 1991.

"I know the guards who mistreated us never received a slap on the wrist, so I'm glad to see the system working," he said. "However, I'm disappointed the system failed in letting these guys mistreat those prisoners.

"Those guys were wrong, and the worst part about the whole thing is that the troops there are going to suffer."

Hoping to deter mistreatment of future prisoners of war, Storr and 16 other Americans held as POWs filed a $900 million lawsuit two years ago against Iraq, Saddam and the Iraqi Intelligence Service.

They won a judgment, which they were told would come out of Iraqi assets frozen at the beginning of the current Iraq war.

Then they were told the money was used to rebuild Iraq.

The case is under appeal.

Meanwhile, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has suggested that mistreated Iraqi prisoners might be compensated, a notion Storr finds puzzling.

"They're trying to extinguish this lawsuit, and we go and mistreat the prisoners," he said. "What are we saying? What kind of message are we sending? It's very confusing to me.

"There's talk of reimbursing Iraqis with taxpayer money. We didn't want taxpayer money, we wanted Saddam's money," Storr said.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/051204A.shtml

Can Rumsfeld Save Torture Lite?

No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever." Article 17, Third Geneva Convention

    The TV screen showed the faces of American Prisoners of War from Pvt. Jessica Lynch’s unit, the 507th Maintenance Company, out of Fort Bliss, Texas. Iraqi fedayeen had captured them on March 23 of last year as U.S. troops raced toward Baghdad, and the Iraqis proudly showed their captives to the world.

    The face I remember most was Spc. Shoshana Johnson, a 30-year-old black woman who served as an Army cook. She looked terrified.

    Earlier the same day, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was appearing on NBC's Meet the Press, when host Tim Russert told him that the Iraqis had announced the capture and would soon show their American POWs. Secretary Rumsfeld responded without missing a beat.

    "You know," he said, "under the Geneva Convention, it's illegal to do things with prisoners of war that are humiliating to those individuals."

    Sec. Rumsfeld knew what he was saying. The Geneva Conventions require that POWs, other detainees, and civilians "be treated humanely at all times." Various articles forbid humiliating, coercing, and torturing them. One provision - Article 17 of the Third Geneva Convention - would become especially relevant.

    "No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

    All that week, Pentagon officials continued to cite the Geneva Conventions, and Rumsfeld drove them home again with an explicit message to Iraqi government officials.

    "The coalition POWs that you are holding must be treated according to the Geneva Conventions," he warned. "And any Iraqi officials involved in their mistreatment, humiliation or execution will pay a severe price."

    Rumsfeld and the military brass were talking nothing less than war crimes prosecutions. Now they've changed their tune. With ever more horrific American prison photos filling the world's newspapers, magazines, and TV screens, the Pentagon portrays our far greater humiliation, coercion, and even torture of Iraqi prisoners as only a terrible excess, the isolated work of a few rotten apples.

    The hypocrisy is galling, and the rest of us - soldiers and civilians alike - will pay for it should we fall into enemy hands. The Geneva Conventions do not enforce themselves. Americans can expect humane treatment only if our enemies can expect it from us.

More....

Beverly, I put nothing past them. Trying to figure them out is like a dog chasing their tail. All I really know is that they are destroying what we had of a democracy, and they have a long history of fascism.

As Sally once said, the head of the hydra must be removed, or we will have changed nothing.

Sorry, I've been at work most of the day and just now got back to this board. I don't care what someone said on Nightline about Bush and Kerry being the same. I don't care if someone is voting for Nadar or Kuchinich or Micky Mouse, and as intimate and honest we all seem to be on this Board, we do not know one another well enough to judge what someone does in November or why they are doing it.

I am the moderate of this board and there have been a few times that I've felt it necessary to step in to say something. I don't like to do it because it makes me feel like THE MOTHER and I am not. But I am going to ask everyone to A.) Not judge someone else's thought process, B)not to critize another for that process and C) please watch the language.

If there is an obvious freeper on this site all I do is delete the offending post.

If someone thinks Nadar is a meglomanic so what, if someone wants to vote for Kuchinich because it makes them feel they are protecting their integrity, so what. The chips are going to fall where they will and this little site isn't going to stop those chips from falling. I would like to remind everyone that at least 85% of all Astrologers I know predicted that Gore would win, and he did. But Mr. Gore is not in the White House, so the chips will fall where they will and for the reasons we may not immediately understand. But we do not have to fight with each other to prove our point.

Thanks Sally for addressing my question on the May period. The reason I asked is because it's an extremely volitale (sp) period for financial markets, and I have been recently reminded that the events of 9/11 were partially precipitated to cover up a crash. Also, I would just like to add my 2 cents re: J. & R's silliness on this board. Get a grip folks, astrology is meant to show possible manifestations of energies. I am sure as you both are aware, choice dictates our responses to these energies, so c'mon...... politics will always exist, and internalized opinions are subject to such personal emotions that we all are entitled to; however, the world needs as much positivity as we collectively can project in spite of everything conspiring to debase us otherwise. You know this, right? :)

WV,
Thanks for asking about me...

I've been overwhelmed by the events of the past days and particularly today, as I am sure the rest of you have... I have been lurking, so I see that things are lively here...

Morgana, I hope you are moving gently through your days... and that you feel better real soon. I send my light to you... and thanks for mentioning the poll at CNN...

Roxanne, I hesitate to say anything for fear you will feel 'piled' on --- I read the posts quickly and I must say I believe the problem is one of communication... no one has disputed your report that a DEM is calling for the draft... lots of folks, including Demos are. Consider this: the volunteer army works well in times of peace --- folks from families with very little money cannot afford to give their children a college education... the military offers that. And some young people cannot find a job when they finish high school... perhaps they live in a thinly populated area and there is opportunity. The military offers a paycheck. Very few of them actually consider they will be shooting others or trying to protect themselves from bullets.

Now comes this unnecessary 'war'... an illegal invasion... a mess... we go in with not enough boots on the ground... [we all agree war is awful, terrible... those of us here on this board agree with you. We're talking about the military now, though... okay... stick with me.]

So it comes down to the fact that Americans ---poor people, people of color are getting killed in Iraq every day. I think I read somewhere the other day that only one member of the House and not one Senator has a child in the military. That's simply unacceptable! When we can send our children to die on the whim of a sociopath, we need to be sure we're sending "OUR" children... One of the reasons so many people still support the pResident in the so-called war is they don't have anybody over there... they don't know anyone who has anybody over there.

The draft would eliminate that... politicians would have to put up or shut up --- Want to go to war, Senator? Send YOUR kid... make YOUR kid have to sign up... Still want to go? Do you want to stay in Iraq, Senator? Might be your daughter over there next month, Sir. Still want to stay?
So, you see one can support the draft and yet not support war. It's a matter of distribution of the pain! More evenly! That doesn't mean I support the draft, Roxanne. I'm simply trying to present to you why some people do support a return to the draft.

One more little, tiny thing Roxanne. I hear in your posts that you 'feel unheard' even misunderstood... part of that may come from the fact that you sometimes ASSUME you know what the other person is thinking. It's better to confront it, just ask... is this how you view things? One more, and I will get off your case. Please don't voice your despair with all politicians in attacks on all pols, or even political parties. I don't think you really mean a lot of the things you say... like the Democratic party is no different than the Repug party... parties are made up of 'people'... most of us here are Dems or progressives or independents... we feel offended when you make general statements like that.

There's so much division in this country... we don't need it here, especially here... please.

Jonathan, please continue to post. Perhaps you and Roxanne can agree to disagree. Right, Roxanne?

Light to all

Peg, several years ago (when we were all still properous or had hope of being so) I attended a financial astrological conference in NY that was put on by the leading financial astrologers in England and US. One of the guys from England said when the NN reached Taurus (which is where it is now) the US will go into a serious decline and would not begin rising toward another properous period until the NN was in Scorpio.

I did not take good notes on this lecture and I could kick myself all over the place because of it, but there it is. He also said a huge crash could take place during those years as experienced in the Depression. The NN was in Taurus in 1929 and still there in 1930 when the depression deepened. and we didn't not work our way out until the War with NN in Libra just having passed Scorpio.

Well we have quite a bit out here to terrify us, first the terrorists, Yellowstone blowing and covering the entire US in tons of ash, a massive stock market decline, George Bush, and a potential of a comet hitting and blasting us to pieces, and all out jobs going overseas, not to mention our own personal fears (sick kids, lost jobs etc.) I do believe Michael Moore is correct when he says "Americans are the most fearful people on the face of the earth" from 'Bowling for Columbine."

JONATHAN:

Don't you DARE leave this Board.

THAT'S HOW TROLLS WIN........

Corleonis

corleonis,

(shhhhhhhh ... I'm trying to lurk here!!!)

Sally, that's so true. What's an American to do?

hey jonathan,

i interpreted what you said to me because i saw it this way:

i wanted to get into a conversation about the implication of last nights nightline...i am one angry girl because i feel a draft is coming no matter who is pres, (except ralph)...so of course i wanted to lash out at people who may vote it in, either via bush or kerry (or nader! you remember i said if the polls were close i would vote for kerry, but this revelation of a draft can change that for me)..so that's the story. i don't hate you at all.

in all of my despair what i am saying, in a calmer tone is: please remember what our values are and what we believe in and don't VOTE for kerry is he will implement a draft BECAUSE you will end up depressed and feel betrayed. that is what i am saying. what the democrat followers (like yourselves and even dennis k) need to do is get some kind of guarantee from kerry that he will NOT have a draft. but people are so scared to rock any boats, so thats the way it is.

sally i'm sorry for the bad language, obviously stressed and sort of john the baptist like (miss bhakti), and trying to get everyone outraged WITH ME (not against me). and sally is right, everything will happen the way it is going to but we DO have to be accountable for how we vote (or maybe not! according to the 2000 coup), and keep our eyes and minds open. there's no such thing as a troll -- that's just the other side of the same close minded coin. situations change, people change, even ralph can change and i would too, against him.. we all have to keep our eyes wide open. most of all here, learn about how astrology works with what is manifesting, that is the point of this board after all.

i'm not going to keep pushing ralph on people. i just want what is best for the world, and the usa, and us sane people. i'm not going to bring ralph up again until one of you starts doing it, and i feel it may happen over the coming months, in the way i am speaking about this war.

love to you jonathan, and i wish you the best. and yes bhakti i take responsibility for my anger but one must judge it by the side i'm on, moreso than to be offended by passion in general.

actually Sally, I'm not terrified/ afraid/ worried, or wanting for money. There have been times when I have been all of the above, but everything changes. I simply think it's all very interesting. The trick you know is being happy with what ya got, who knows when it might just disappear? :)

ok, here it is (i'm not kidding):

channel 9, cbs local news in dc, just ran a trailer for the 11:00 pm news: 'new photos, ufo spotted by military aircraft.' i give up. we're now living in what superman comics referred to as bizaro-world!

now, if they'd just land on the capitol mall, send out a wise old alien and give us 30 days to get our ..it together!

Hey Mike, are you serious??

I'm inclined to think that there is going to be a draft no matter who wins the election. The difference between Bush and Kerry is that with Kerry, a draft would take the form of compulsory national service. That could mean joining the military, the peace corps, Americorps, or another similar organization. With Bush, you're only going to have one option. Secondly, with reagrd to the whole Nader discussion, I'm just wondering what Nader supporters will say if Nader drops out in September and endorses Kerry? Additionally, it is clear to me that IF Bush wins another term then Hillary Clinton will run in 2008. Who is truly more progressive: Kerry or Hillary? Who is really a better advocate for the left? I'm not trying to piss anyone off with these comments, but just trying to encourage you to think about your actions and how you would respond to possible and VERY LIKELY scenarios.

Four more years of the neocons and it won't be predictable at all.

OK, I can't resist sharing this joke I came across today for a little levity.
The Republican National Committee announced today that the Republican Party is changing its emblem from an elephant to a condom. Governor Marc Raciot, RNC Chairman, explained that the condom more clearly reflects the party's stance today, because a condom accepts inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation, protects a bunch of pricks, and gives you a sense of security while you're actually getting screwed.

Perfect!

pat, yes i'm serious. i'm also wondering if someone put acid in my coffee. i have the stupid tv on until news 9 comes on and i'll post an update. this is actually one of my healing fantasies: the space people come, remove bush and ALL NADERITES, and compel us to live in peace.

text at around 11:15

Mike I like your healing fantasies, and I can't wait to hear the update.

I have always said if an UFO landed we would all join hands around the world, no matter who we were and say "we're earth people, we are all earth people."

Boy Peg you are so right, after awhile you say "oh, that's interesting, here's another thing to look at."

I do worry about the draft and I know that's what they want to do and I have a son who is the exact age for it. If he can wiggle by Saturn conj his moon this fall and in 2005 he will I think escape. I hope so, I don't think I would take it well. But given the mess in Iraq I just don't know if the people would stand for it.

Sally we may just HAVE to drag the Bushes out and keep them out. All us earth people who really do love freedom.

http://truthout.org/docs_04/051204AA.shtml

CBS to Air U.S. Soldier's Video Diary of Iraq Abuse

An American soldier's video diary showing her disdain for Iraqi detainees who died in her charge is to be broadcast by a U.S. network on Wednesday in a further escalation of the prisoner abuse scandal that has shaken the Bush administration and provoked world outrage.

    CBS, which two weeks ago broadcast the first pictures of Iraqi prisoners being abused in Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, said on Tuesday its "60 Minutes II" program would show video footage depicting conditions there and at another U.S.-run prison in southern Iraq called Camp Bucca.

    Photographs of Iraqi prisoners being sexually humiliated, threatened by dogs and piled into pyramids as grinning American soldiers look on have been published round the world, dealing a major setback to U.S. attempts to stabilize Iraq.

    The Pentagon has said that it has more pictures and video of abuse that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has warned may be even more shocking.

    An Islamic Web site said on Tuesday that an American civilian, Nick Berg from Philadelphia, had been beheaded by an al Qaeda leader in Iraq in revenge for the "Satanic degradation" of Iraqi prisoners.

    CBS said the home video did not show scenes of abuse but included comments by the soldier, whose name was not revealed to protect her identity, that make clear her dislike for the camp and the prisoners under her control.

    "I hate it here," she said on the tape. "I want to come home. I want to be a civilian again. We actually shot two prisoners today. One got shot in the chest for swinging a pole against our people on the feed team. One got shot in the arm. We don't know if the one we shot in the chest is dead yet."

More....

Oooh, Mike! Shut yo mouth!

Don't you imagine they are pushing that Mexican video because we're all experiencing almost overwhelming emotional overload (fatigue for those of us who've been following all this you-know-what for so long)?

I hope everyone gets some good rest tonight. At the rate things are going, we'll all need it.

Peace to all.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=548051&mesg_id=548051

A Mexican air force plane on a mission to hunt illegal narcotics traffickers videotaped 11 unidentified flying objects (UFOs), according to a media report.

...

In the tape, broadcast by Televisa network, the UFOs appear as white spots in the sky.

At first the pilots can be heard saying they think the alleged UFOs are planes carrying drug cargos.

...

Then the infrared camera reveals another 10 luminous spots moving at great speed.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/12/1084289693075.html

Also, from the South African Independent Online:

Mexico City - Mexico's largest television network on Monday and Tuesday broadcast footage taken by air force pilots of what they say are unidentified flying objects (UFOs).

The footage shows bright lights with "movements and characteristics that do not have - up to now - a scientific explanation," according to the Televisa network.

The air force pilots are heard expressing amazement on the tape.

...

"It is one of the most important film documents we have been able to access, especially because it comes from an official source," said Jaime Mausan, a journalist who has been tracking the UFO phenomenon for more than 25 years.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=122&art_id=qw1084294082176B252...

Story on, ahem, Rense here, with more detail: http://www.rense.com/general52/deff.htm

I have a comment. I usually give no note to some
posts..but since there has been a brouha I have
had to look.

Here's my comment. Most of us here are obsessive
compulsive about astrology. Obsessive compulsive in worrying over our beloved country and the awful paths it is being led into.

And that's why I come here. Kindred spirits.

But obsessive compulsive over a particular religion doesn't belong here. Obsessively compulsively expressing anger on every post doesn't belong here.

And just when I had the loveliest thought today
about this board.

I was thinking, after speaking with another friend who has absolutely no knowledge and interest in what is going on in this country and explaining the Bush family history, etc etc, how only spiritual people like the participants on this board and some others seem to be aware of the danger that all that is "good" in this country is in.

Besides on this board, my closest friends who I've known for some 30 years and who also studied
astrology and other secret sciences along with me,
are very involved mentally, politically in seeing this administration gone from this country. A thing they follow on a daily basis.

But we don't curse and swear at each other if one supports Kerry, and the other supports Clark, etc.

It;'s tiresome. And boring. And disruptive to the entire stream of intelligence here.

I agree with the person who posted above about
denial and a refusal to accept responsibility by
attempting to shift the reason that a sharp rebuke erupted.

I'd like to suggest to Jonathan, and others, I dont want to be bothered with nonsense, so I skip over it. Try it. Much less aggravation and wasted time answering nonsense.

AND NOW BACK TO THE SUBJECT:

finally! Marvin Kalb, that old distinguished journalist was on CNN tonight He said concerning the media: It was not doing its job throughout these past three years. And then he said:

"There has been a steady drumbeat of incompetence on the part of this administration."

OMG, I saw luminous lights in the sky (about 9) twenty years ago in northern N.J. in a very populated place. It was twightlight, not day or night but still light. They were not moving much but did kind of float around and towards each other. Well, maybe this is the Venus-Sun eclipse incident and I for one feel it's not a moment too soon!!!! They are here to take our focus off these conflicts on earth and on greater things! I hope! I hope! I hope! Maybe even help us solve our problems. This is just SO exciting.

Sweet dreams all. Let's wake up to more interesting and positive news for a change.

For Pat et al:

news 9, washington dc, 5/11/04:

-toddler left in car at 120 degrees (must be a rumsfield follower)
-couple shoot's teens at fast food place (revenge)and 8 year old dies by mistake
[my wife wants to watch chris matthews but i'm holding fast for ufos...can it be ufos if it's not the lead]
-chevy chase bank robbed, pictures (great)
-fire at i-95 tunnel in baltimore (who cares, that's not dc)
-revenge killing against us in iraq (thanks rummy)
11:07 - probably not ufo's
-more iraqi photos, senators get to see all photos tomorrow
[my wife's really pissed now, no ufo's]
-cicadas emerge in your nation's capitol
-dick vandyke show piece (not looking good)
[11:19 - wife kicks me to ground and takes channel changer, andrea mitchel subbing for chris matthews on hardball)

I get back on this board and find out it's a mexican video...SORRY PAT...actually watched 20 minutes of local news (which i despise greatly) in hopes of making a special contribution to this board!!!

heading to the top of mt. tamilpias to await the end of the world (and drinking some more of that coffee)...

Mike! FOFL! It's ok.

http://pennlive.com/newsflash/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-16/108430077760820.xml

on behalf of an angry nation...this link may be the tipping point (coffee is kicking in)

thanks pat

You know Mike if it had been American pilots, we would not heard one word about it.

I'm headed for the kitchen for a cup of coffee myself.

Ijust love Saturn on Bush's Sun. They're finally speaking out and showing they know Bush is using the United States Army for private purposes!!!

Go Governor!

News > Missouri State News > Story

Holden: Missouri soldiers shouldn't drive civilian contractors (Halliburton's Brown Root & Kellogg
By Terry Ganey
Post-Dispatch Jefferson City Bureau Chief
05/11/2004

JEFFERSON CITY -- Gov. Bob Holden wrote President George W. Bush on Tuesday saying he was concerned about the use of Missouri National Guard soldiers to drive vehicles for civilian contractors in Iraq.

Holden said if they are, he strenuously objected to the "wrongful use of U.S. Army personnel in this manner."

Holden's letter said he had been in contact with Missouri Adjutant General Dennis Shull, who said he had received complaints from soldiers' families about the type of duty the soldiers were being assigned in Iraq. Holden's letter said Shull had told him that the guard was supplying drivers for Kellogg, Brown and Root, a civilian contractor.

Oh this is some night, we have UFO's in Mexico, and little ole Denver, CO on their news tonight was given the 1st interview with Lynndie England (the girl in the photo) and she has a story to tell. Denver is not the big town and Brian Moss is not Dan Rather. And Pallas18 Gov. Oh my. This is too strange. Venus, bless her, is comin on. This is too funny. And to the 'obsessive compulsive' astrologer above, that's what makes a good astrologer. That obsessive compulsive need to unravel just keeps you at it.

http://tinyurl.com/3fms9

Faced with a scarcity of letters praising the president, a newspaper in a Republican-leaning district appealed for pro-Bush letters, then backed off the request Tuesday amid complaints of blatant politics

Last week in an editorial, The Post-Crescent said most of its letters had been coming from one side and asked readers "to help us 'balance' things out."

"We've been getting more letters critical of President Bush (news - web sites) than those that support him," the editorial said. "We're not sure why, nor do we want to guess. But in today's increasingly polarized political environment, we would prefer our offering to put forward a better sense of balance."

On Tuesday, the newspaper located in Appleton, Wis., with a daily circulation of just over 56,000 ran a second editorial stepping back from the appeal. Executive editor Andrew Oppmann said the paper's intentions in the May 4 editorial had been misinterpreted.

"Hindsight being 20/20, I can see how invoking the candidate's name read like 'Hey, let's all jump on the Bush bandwagon,'" said Oppmann, who pointed out that the paper endorsed Democrat Al Gore (news - web sites) in 2000. "But our intent was just to get more readers participating and telling people, 'Hey, if you don't like what you read, just write a letter and we'll run it.'"

The newspaper is located in a congressional district that Bush won handily in 2000, beating Gore, 52 percent to 43 percent.

Some newspaper readers objected to the appeal. Ellen Kunz of Neenah, Wis., accused the paper of ignoring local sentiment against Bush in a letter published Tuesday on the paper's Web site.

"If you are receiving so many letters, indicating an imbalance of opinions, it is because your readers feel they need to do your job for you," Kunz wrote. "They are telling you that there isn't enough public scrutiny of this administration's policies and actions."

Della Besaw called the paper to complain, "Whose bright idea was it to solicit ready support for Bush? Was it a P-C executive decision or Gannett headquarters? The best support Bush Republicans and others can give for the closest thing to a despot this country has ever seen is their silence," according to a transcript printed on the Web site.

Oppmann said the editorial was a local decision and did not come from Gannett.

On a blog called Approximately Perfect (can't find the link right now) someone named Justine posted the perfect phrase to describe the Bushies' activities:
"Bush's war on Terra."
That's what I'm calling it from now on. I think this phrase deserves the widest currency.

Hello, Pat, I have been scanning too fast and somehow missed your nice post re the Hugunoets. I know more about my husband's family (mine is more eclectic--a touch of French, a touch of Welch, a touch of English, German, Polish, etc.) Anyhow his people came over from LaRochelle just a quick run to jump on the boat before the King's axman. got them. Landed in the Carolinas, drifted into the hills of Tennessee--were trappers and hunters.

.well if it was up to the Canadians....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/polls/pollResults?vote=31724&id=25659&pollid=25659&answerid=31724&poll=GAMFront&save=_save25659&show_vote_always=no&hub=Front&subhub=VoteResult

...my,my...

http://www.johnadams.net/index.html

I have a probably unanswerable question. GWB is so eager to send our sons and daughters to fight in his illegal war. Why isn't he sending his own daughters?

Sally, my nephew who we thought would be safe in Guam for the next 6 months has received formal orders for Iraq. The e-mail he sent his parents last weekend was heartbreaking. 21 years old and he's thinking how he wants to be remembered after death.

Joshua went into the military because he didn't have any other choices. He didn't want to continue in school and it's too hard to suppport yourself with only a high school education. He knew he might have to go to a combat zone but when you're that young you don't think of what the consequences truly are. I pray he comes home safely. I pray the "war" ends before my other nieces and nephews have to go.

So once again, why aren't the twins in uniform?

I just can't get over the beheading of Nick Berg, especially after I saw him identify himself on tape. It is terribly tragic. And the raw barbarianism of it! I know it exists in the Muslim world as a punishment for crime. May G-P help his family, the people who think this type of action is justified to come to their senses or be stopped, and all world leaders and citizens to do the right thing. I think the cruel and abusive treatment of the Iraqui prisoners showed us to ourselves and the world. The U.S. permits and even encourages such behaviors. But the act perpetrated on Nick Berg again shows the shocking, violent & vengeful psychology of those whom we are dealing with. I subscribe to a website who sends out thoughts for the day. Here is today's - something we MUST hold on to.

Seed of Peace
If we plant a positive, clean seed of thoughts and concentrate on it, we give it energy, like the sun gives to a seed in the earth. And as the seed in the earth awakens, stirs and begins to grow, the thoughts on which we concentrate awaken, stir and begin to grow. So let us sow positive thoughts.

Each morning before we begin the journey of the day let us sit still, in silence, and sow the seed of peace. Peace is harmony and balance. Peace is - freedom from the burden of negativity and wastefulness. Let peace find its home within us. Peace is our original strength, our eternal tranquility of being.
Anthony Strano

Teresa, that just makes me sick about your nephew, sick and angry. A 21 year old has no business having to think how he wants to be remembered after he is dead. My prayers go with him and his family. "My prayers go with" doesn't that just sound trite? It isn't, it isn't at all.

I know what you mean, Sally, and I appreciate the sentiment. Sometimes words just can't be found that are sufficient to express what we want to say. Thank you for your prayers.

I can't bear to listen or look at the news of
the young Berg.

And if they release any more pictures, which are
apparently worse, our people will be in much much
worse danger.

Rumsfeld is responsible for this d i r e c t l y!

Way back he gave a press interview referring to the Geneva Convention Rules as "a bunch of legalisms" - that set the tone, and who knows what other orders we will never know about that he
gave out.

Two opinions: that whole group including dimson should be tried for treason - although unlikely.

If elections were held today dimson would not be elected but since it is in 6 months, congress will not move for impeachment, but if he is elected, he will not be president for long, both
according to our stars and the expose's to come.
Convention Rules as a bunc

Teresa,

If he were my son, rather than let him go to Iraq
I'd send him to
Canada as a conscientious objector or whatever.
No one would blame him.

Maybe you could write that vets organization which is against the war and ask them what to do.

This is an unjust illegal war and everybody knows it.

Got any relatives in France or Germany? They certainly would not agree with increasing troops in Iraq.

Hope he gets out of it. Iraq is no place for any
American boy or girl. Let Halliburton's contractors fight dimson's oil wars.

Pallas18, thanks for your suggestions. However, military indoctrination being what it is, Josh wants to go with his unit. He's scared but he thinks it's his duty to go and I have to respect that. I just wish the cause was just.

http://tinyurl.com/yupot

Kerry Describes Health Proposal
Plan Is Targeted At Small Businesse

In a dusty warehouse of Louisville Stoneware Co., a small clay pottery company established here in 1815, Sen. John F. Kerry on Tuesday detailed his plan to reduce the cost of health coverage for small-business owners and their employees.

Addressing a small group of business owners and many of Louisville Stoneware's 63 employees, Kerry accused President Bush of ignoring a "crisis" of escalating health care costs for smaller businesses. Health insurance premiums have shot up by nearly 50 percent over the past three years for small firms, forcing many owners to scale back or scuttle coverage for employees, studies show. This helps to explain why 43 million Americans are without insurance.

"Everybody is sliding backwards," the Massachusetts Democrat said. About two-thirds of small businesses offered health plans to their employees in 2003, a slight decrease from 2000, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation.

Anthony Urbaites, president of Louisville Stoneware, and Bruce Cohen, owner of B.C. Plumbing, which employs 10 people, described how skyrocketing insurance costs are eating into profits and stifling expansion and hiring.

Cohen said that last month he was forced to increase the annual deductible for his employees to $2,500 from $500. He said his company's health care costs rose by 20 percent in 2002, 15 percent in 2003 and would have risen 17 percent more this year without the change. "Escalating costs just seem to keep escalating," Cohen said.

Kerry outlined in detail his plan to help Cohen and Urbaites.

Sometimes derided as aloof or distant from average voters, Kerry is often at his political finest in these small, intimate policy discussions. With 19 years of Senate experience, Kerry appears to impress his audiences with his mastery of policy arcana and ability to explain complicated ideas. And his answers tend to be snappier and more direct than his sometimes rambling explanations of policies in more formal stump speeches.

Urbaites and Cohen, who declined to discuss their personal politics, said they were impressed with Kerry's style and his proposals.

During the discussion, Kerry reiterated his proposal to offer small-business owners a mix of tax breaks and government assistance in exchange for their lowering the cost of health insurance for employees. Under the Kerry plan, small-business owners would get a tax credit to cover as much as 50 percent of the cost of providing coverage to employees with incomes that are not more than 300 percent of the poverty level. In 2003, a family of three making less than $45,000 and a family of four making less than $54,000 would have qualified if the Kerry plan were law, according to Sarah Bianchi, the senator's policy director.

Kerry would also allow small-business owners to buy into the same health plan that covers members of Congress and to receive a tax credit if they pick up at least half of the cost for employees. Finally, Kerry said he would seek to drive down coverage costs by taking catastrophic medical costs -- $50,000 or more -- out of the private sector and placing them on the government's tab.

More...

Thanks for posting Kerry's health care plan, Pat. It is refreshing and I hope people are not too beaten-up by bad press and mis-facts to fail to ignore it. If evaluated in any depth, it stands to win.

I went to Orr's site where she has posted the Eye-rack attack chart. Being a complete novice, I would appreciate the input of experts here. If I understand it correctly, Saturn is now opp by transit the war chart Mars, transiting Mars will be joining tr Saturn very soon, Venus will be retro-ing back opposite war Pluto (on the mid-heaven!), etc. Wow.

Pallas, his most dangerous time will be August to mid October if he continues after that and if he is elected I don't think he will serve more than six months into his second term.

Shylurker, Saturn has just passed war chart Mars, Saturn to Mars, or Mars to Saturn is frustrated anger and usually when the aspect passes there is a big blow up. As awful as it seems in light of all that has been happening, there is an even bigger blowup potential on the horizon when Mars opposes war chart mars.

The Venus to the war's Pluto takes on new meaning when you consider that Bush's Uranus is opposing that Pluto as is his NN, with the war Pluto sitting on his SN and the black hole in which Pluto keeps activating. The trauma this administration has experienced in the last few months is only a warm up to what's ahead for them.

Astrology can only predict what is ahead by looking at the history behind, and that's no good in this case because what is coming is nothing experienced before in this country or by this government. As an example, think what would happen if something happened to Bush, Cheney has an approval rating around something like 36 percent, what would we do as a people?

I would like to throw out a couple of things, one is; has anyone noticed how quiet the Republican held House of Rep. has been on this whole mess? Two, every major embassy in Africa and the Middle East has told Americans they need to get out of those countries as the hatred and danger to Americans has grown, and yet from our own Homeland Security America has not given any code alerts. No yellow, orange or red, and yet the atmosphere is more volatile than ever. Is there no chatter? No threats in this country? How odd.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/050304_women_draft.html

Selective Service Eyes Women's Draft
By Eric Rosenberg
The Seattle Post-Intelligencer
Saturday 01 May 2004

***
"In line with today's needs, the Selective Service System's structure, programs and activities should be reengineered toward maintaining a national inventory of American men and, for the first time, women, ages 18 through 34, with an added focus on identifying individuals with critical skills," the agency said in a Feb. 11, 2003, proposal presented to senior Pentagon officials.
(snip)
Nonetheless, Flahavan said the agency has begun designing procedures for a targeted registration and draft of people with computer and language skills, in case military officials and Congress authorize it.
***

If this proposal is set into law, my girlfriend and I would fall squarely within the parameters. She is 29 and getting a degree in Mandrin Chinese and I might accidentally be considered knowledgable about computers. I thought I'd be old enough to not be considered, but if they bump the age limit up, well, let's just say I'd welcome some sane discussion of this issue.

It seems to me that the largest contributing factor toward the marketing of the Iraq war was that it was supposed to be a painless, bloodless exercise for America's military that would not affect the average citizen.

Images are now penetrating America's consciousness of the unspeakably violent and nightmarish situation we are in. The "draft" concept, as we are all aware, triggers an intense reaction from everyone, even those that never ever devote a thought to politics.

As rightly abhorrent as the "draft" concept is, I would think that the *instant* it is placed into law, the ranks of the anti-war movement would surge, there would actually be an increase in dialogue about our motives and tactics in the Middle East, and the media would cover the debate because it would be a sellable talking point.

I also figure that the number of pregnancies among women ages 18-34 would skyrocket. You'd certainly be hearing about an expected ~Wee Dom~ at this forum.

This cannot have escaped the attention of the lawmakers.

Returning the draft might be the last kick needed to send Bu$h into oblivion - it could actually be a tactic to increase public opinion *against* the war.

The Chickenhawks know this and if they do put this into effect they'd have to instigate a Billy Budd pressed-service type of situation ie. you'd be willing to go to war only because the consequences of NOT going were far worse. It's hard to imagine, but let's just say you knew those CIA torture tactics were the other possible fate awaiting you. "Yes, sir, I'd love to be an army of one."

By the way, George Bu$h has two young daughters that are of choice draftability and if this goes into law, they need to go first. Not to some resort, either, they need to strap on their commando gear and get sent to Fallujah.

I personally do not relish the idea of fighting Bu$h's oil war and I want the love of my life to stay as far away from this nightmare as she can. However, IMHO, we can't as a country just drop everything and bail on the Iraqis. We have a moral obligation to get that country back to some semblance of livable standard. From a global perspective, if we were to just bail, our credibility would never recover.

Really, the best thing for all would be for some sort of interplanetary contact that would hammer home the concept that we are one world and one people. Hopefully the Illuminati are working on that. Anybody ever read the graphic novel "Watchmen"???

Alas, I have no astrological data to include in this post, but perhaps those of you that do (and even those that don't) wouldn't mind sharing your perspective on this subject.

Welcome back, Jo, we've missed you.

~D

There are so many smart people here! Ahhhhhhh!

Speaking of smart...

http://tinyurl.com/2fksc

Letter in the Boston Globe (05/12/04)

THE BUSH administration seems to have a serious problem with reality. The most recent reality challenge is the policy of torture in both Iraq and Afghanistan, which the administration is frantically redefining as "abuse," "excesses," and "humiliation." We even have Secretary Rumsfeld describing footage of several American soldiers "having sex" with a female Iraqi prisoner. Let's have a little plain English here. "Having sex" with a prisoner is known as "rape." Systematic beatings are called "torture." Excesses that lead to death are called "murder." The hundreds of women and children in mass graves in Fallujah are the product of a "massacre." Taken together, all of these add up to "atrocities."

The dissemination of "incomplete information" from "imperfect intelligence" is called "lies." The billions of dollars that Halliburton and Bechtel have reaped in profits are called "war profiteering." The invasion of Iraq is called "illegal." The destruction of America's international standing is called "permanent." And Texaco/Phillips's high bid for Iraqi oil is called "why we are in Iraq."

ERICA VERRILLO, Williamsburg

Many thanks, Sally.

You're quite correct. DeLay just rattled off the usual school-boy revenge talk but nothing much beyond that has come from the House. The Senate is trying to wrestle with its 911 Commission, seemingly without stepping on too many toes. The youth over at that weird letsroll911.org site is claiming that even the UN has viewed their footage. And the Mexican Air Force is flying with UFOs.

And more is coming? It's all too crazy for me.

A post script to Dommael: An accurate prediction was made by some during the Vietnam protests: As soon as they shut down the draft, the protests will stop. I couldn't believe it. I thought we were protesting to stop the horror (as well as for keeping every mother's unwilling son out of that disaster). Not so. The draft stopped and so did the protests. Interestingly, I used to go to the protests wearing my surplus Navy pea-coat (they were perfect for absorbing the blows) given to me by by one mother's son who was performing alternative service for one of the agencies providing food and clothing to poor people.

Below is a link to a History Timeline written by Stan Goff. It's long, but well worth the read. Also sheds light on Kerry's ME position and why. You were right Sally.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/042004_goff_timeline.html

A recently returned troop, who wishes to remain anonymous, says, “When I read about the mutilated charred bodies of the Blackwater mercenaries in the news, all I thought was that we did the same thing to them. They would see us debase their dead all the time. We would be messing around with charred bodies, kicking them out of the vehicles and sticking cigarettes in their mouths.”

Another returned troop, also anonymous, says, “We would defecate on and run over dead Iraqi bodies.”

But the story of the Blackwater mercs hits the American public without this context, and chauvinism combines with machismo all the way through Washington and to the CENTCOM G-3. Planning for an Israeli-like vengeance attack on Fallujah begins immediately.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=542&u=/ap/20040512/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_prisoner_abuse_30&printer=1
And now look at what's on the table.

http://www.sfgate.com/comics/meyer/

(emphasis added)

Washington (CNN)
(snip)
Rep. Duncan Hunter of California, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, said the BEHEADING of an American captive in Iraq has House Republican leaders concerned that the RELEASE of more photos to the public COULD LEAD to more Americans being harmed.

"We've got to make a decision on precisely how we handle it, especially in light of what's occurred today," Hunter said.

"From my own perspective, it validates Secretary [of Defense Donald] Rumsfeld and General [Richard] Myers' attempt to keep these initial photos from being published," Hunter said. Myers is chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

"I think it shows they were trying to save American lives when they did that. Unfortunately, those pictures were released."
(snip)

--------------

Washington (AFP)
(snip)
The White House REJECTED ANY LINK between the abuse of Iraqi detainees by US soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison and the "brutal, barbaric" beheading of US citizen Nick Berg.

A day after Berg's blood-curdling slaying by masked assailants was broadcast on an Internet site, spokesman Scott McClellan rejected their claim that they were avenging the mistreatment at the facility near Baghdad.

"Terrorists are going to seek any excuse, and try to change, their excuses to try to justify murder, destruction and chaos," he said, stressing that it was important to "separate the two" issues.
(snip)

----------------

A few of the many questions:
Can two things be the cause and effect as well as unrelated at the same time?
Shouldn’t they wait at least one news cycle before they contradict themselves?
If there is no link between the two, why is the second group of pictures not being released?
At what point will the FCC add its two cents and levy a fine on all these media outlets for showing the original pictures?

....right on, as usual...

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/05/12/notes051204.DTL&type=printable

I tried to enclose the clipping, but don't know how. Anyway, American Politics Journal is reporting that Nick Berg's father was on the Freepers' Enemies List. Will try to get URL since I can't post the article. Many unanswered questions about Berg's murder.

Here you go, Barbara.

http://www.americanpolitics.com/20040512Baker.html

Thanks, Teresa. I think I'll start checking out the Freeper Enemies List from time to time to see who else is on it.

I read somewhere that Nick Berg had been "detained by US authorities in Iraq" last month and his parents had been trying to locate him. Proportedly he was released in the last week or so. Don't know if this is true or not, but if true, raises unbelievable questions.

Check this out. Just heard on Air America Radio news that Nader is on the ballot in 8 states being funded by ROSS PEROT. Smells stinky to me.

It just occurred to me that lately Bush has been repeating over and over and over "I'm a man of conviction."
Most of you know how much power words can have, so I wonder if he is 'unknowingly' setting himself up for literal or figurative conviction? 1)the act or process of convicting of a crime esp. in a court of law.
2)the act of convincing a person of error or of compelling the admission of a truth."

Jeanie, he's probably saying it over and over since noone's given him a new line lately.

shylurker, I realize it comes from not being able to string more than a couple of words coherently together, but at the same time we can all hope he will indeed create his own reality! Keep saying that mantra george - "I am a man of conviction."

I keep thinking of the last press conference when Bu$h looked straight into the camera and said "those who are America's enemies, well, let's just say they aren't a problem anymore."
~D

He is saying "I am a man of conviction".
His ads say that Kerry straddles everything.
At least that is what I heard last night on TV,
not sure of the source as I don't really watch
that much.

But it is meant to compare him with Kerry and
hype his ad campaign.

http://www.decades.com/ByDecade/1630-1639/1.htm
I have a couple of reservations about this site (it has Boston being founded three times in 1630--through I suspect they mean that this town, then that town, then the other joined; also, it has Kepler dying in 1630 and then viewing the Venus passage in 1631). Oh, well, if the Mexican Air Force . . .

That "By Decade" site also has Louis XIV of France born twice--11 days apart. I guess he was a man of conception.

Teresa,
In the fall of 1966, my fiancé and I were pre-med students at UCLA. Because of some unforeseen circumstances, he became eligible for service and was drafted. As so many other young men of my generation he was sent to Vietnam, a lamb to slaughter. On February 20, 1968 three months away from his 23rd birthday, in the province of Quang Tri, my love, a small town boy that wanted only to be a healer was killed by small arms fire, as he bravely attempted to drag another wounded comrade to safety. His name now resides on the Vietnam memorial wall pane 40E. He was one of 58,148 young Americans killed during that hateful, misconceived war. This brilliant, caring young man lost his life while Bush, Chaney, Rove, and the list goes on in this administration, merrily carried on with their privileged lives. To my sheer amazement, 35+ years later Americans are allowing these same cowards to smear, a hero and Vietnam Vet, John Kerry and to send a whole group of young Americans to their deaths in another hostile country. I do believe the draft will be reinstated and many more young people will lose their lives because of the “folly” of Bush and his war. Even if a democrat becomes President, the repercussion of what this group of bunglers have perpetuated will take years to clean up and stabilize. My own wonderful son will be entering med school in the fall, but I am much older and wiser, and I will do anything and everything it takes before I will give these immoral criminals a chance to take his dreams or his life. As I hear of the continued carnage in Iraq I am all too aware how you and all the families with loved ones in harms way are feeling and I meditate daily for their safety.

Thank you, Hestia. I'll relay your kind thoughts to my sister and her husband.

Blessings to you and all the good families who love peace. I ask that each of you be protected.

Buzzflash just posted link to most complete story yet on Nick Berg.

>http://www.breakfornews.com/NickBergEnemiesList.htm

It is chilling.

Whatever GW says think the opposite then you got it. Otherwise, it's confusing us all and that's what they want. A nation of mindless drones. The words do not match the actions or vibrations of the Lyin'King.

Shade, excellent article you linked from FTW. I thought the following quote very informative and perhaps vindicates Roxanne's position as well as others.

"As this liberal position becomes clearer, people will again revisit the question of elections. Not the outcome this time, because some progressives are actually saying that there is something to be said for a continuation of the Bush leadership, to allow the debacle to reach its bottom. They are also saying that instead of focusing on electoral outcomes, the people need to see the elections as a way to confront those in front of the cameras and in the hot seat with questions like Iraq, Palestine, and Haiti – which paradoxically puts the Democrats in hotter water than the Republicans.

John Kerry will not welcome a strong pro-Palestinian appeal directed at his potential base, nor will he welcome Black Democrats confronting him with the issue of the coup in Haiti . Both of these are easily connectible to the occupation of Iraq if they are put into the analytical frame of colonialism"

"ORLANDO, Fla. (Reuters) - Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry said on Wednesday Republican Sen. John McCain topped his list for defense secretary as he criticized the Bush administration for failed policies in Iraq."

A mistake. McCain is a conservative republican through and through....95% of the time he tows the
party line. heyzeus. this is not going to be much of a change in government - the centrist crap
all the way. I adored Bubba but that was his greatest mistake - trying to appease the repugnants and kerry is doing it too-unless Kerry
is a true centrist.

What about all the social programs that have been
scuttled since the advent of the local messiah? Doesn't look like Kerry will return us to normal if he's trying to bring in conservative republicans.

I wish there was someone else who was viable as the democratic candidate - and maybe after this announcement there may be.

Kerry's comments have been twisted by rightwing media again. Said in the context of somebody saying Rumsfeld could not be replaced because we were in the middle of the war, Kerry responsed by saying respected republican senators such as McCain or Warner would be more than capable and it was a pretty sad comment on our democracy if one person was indispensible.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=716&e=3&u=/ap/20040512/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_iraq
heres the link to the Kerry/McCain statement

Coming soon, to a movie house near you....

http://www.villagevoice.com/print/issues/0419/kaufman.php

The Truth is out there!

Apparently those UFO pix from the Mexican military were taken in March, but only just released because they didn't know what else to do with them.

Pallas, Kerry would have to name a Republican during a Republican administration.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20807-2004May12.html

I haven't read today's comments, but I hope ya'll are doing well? :) If anyone would be interested, here is an organization I have been sponsoring to help the children of the Middle East; please consider reading the info: http://www.mecaforpeace.org/meca.html thank you.

Pat, Am I to understand that Kerry is being critized for making the Eye-rack attack (read: war) a POLITICAL ISSUE?
Glory be! What will happen next? Probably UFOs traveling with the Mexican Air Force.
Where's the exit?

shylurker,

I'm carving my mashed potatoe mountain right this minute. (Close Encounters of the Third Kind)

Hello to all! This is my first post here, tho' I've been lurking for a month or so...found a link to this site on Noel Tyl's website, and I'm thrilled to have found it! I have dabbled in astrology for years, off and on. . .in an off cycle right now. I took some astrology classes several years ago, and~lucky me!~ 2 of them from Ricki Reeves (author of The Quindecile). She is a superb astrologer, and a wonderful person. I know nothing about mundane astrology, but I am learning a lot on this site ~ thanks to the incredible articles written here.

I would like to address Bev's comment above, regarding a psychic's prediction that Wes Clark would be president. Has anyone done his chart? I am an avid supporter of Gen. Clark, but was originally for Kucinich. When I saw Clark for the first time on TV, I was amazed at his eyes~the windows of the soul~and IMHO this man is an old soul, a sage, and a gift to our country. Ok, that may sound very biased, but it was what drew me to him in the beginning. Since then, having heard him speak many times, especially on the Iraq conflict, he has been, and continues to be on target. He's been described as "scary smart", and if I may suggest a recent article written by him titled "Broken Engagement", he traces the history of the cold war efforts to end communism, and compares this to the current admin. wrong approach: http://tinyurl.com/2upjy.

Clark is being touted as a VP for Kerry, and several comments have been made in the press recently, so I would be very curious about a chart on this possibility. Personally I think Kerry needs Clark on the ticket in order to win. And, although I disagree with some things Kerry and Clark have said, I still think they are our best hope. The first order of business should be to get rid of Bush & co.

I need to go find some Rescue Remedy now.

Peace and blessings

http://www.breakfornews.com/NickBergEnemiesList.htm

Sally talks about events that will absolutely blow our minds. I don't think its a demise of any leader in a literal sense. I predict that the above post combined with the horrors of torture in prisons and the subsequent horrors to be revealed will turn almost all factions against the Republican leadership. The above post refers to Nick Berg being targeted by a right wing web service prior to his latest and fatal trip to Iraq. The only people Bush has left are the people/faction saying that Berg's death is more outrageous than American prison abuse. Just wait until the internet pushes this linked story into the mainstream. His only supporters will turn against him and he'll have about a 25% approval rating. "Is this the end of little Rico!"
YOU BET IT IS!

I'm holding onto your thought, Mike?
Are the Swainson's still soaring on Mt. Tam?

You all will appreciate this article Mike. Welcome starflower!

http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0005366.HTM

The Uranus Factor - Surprising Enlightenment

Everytime I visit this site I can't help but note the quote Isabelle included in her fine article, "He who looks into the abyss finds the abyss looks into him." How very appropriate for all that is happening.

Yesterday was so emotional for me, so thanks Jeanne for the Republican condom joke. It made my day. So much info here and my mind is on overload. But, before I completely melt into my natal mercury/neptune opp, there are some things I have found which are interesting. Understand, at this point in time I still expect to be voting for John Kerry come November. Yet, to comprehend just how much "money" is the "power." Check out The Center for Public Integrity's website.

http://www.publicintegrity.org/bop2004/default.aspx

It lets you "follow the money," so to speak, for both candidates and parties.

I had gone to FTW to source my comments on the draft, and I couldn't find where I'd heard or read what. Typical, oh well, if I do find the actual articles, I will let you know. But Laura, yeah, the Goff article was such an eye opener for me. I couldn't believe how ill informed I am. Aha! But being a truthseeker (Hey, Beverly did you ever listen to Mike Malloy?) I can't help but to keep on trying to connect the dots.

So, with the cycles of planets that are ongoing, say with the USA chart and T Pluto opp USA Mars/square Neptune (now) cooresponding to when T pluto last conjuncted USA Neptune in 1968, and the T Saturn opp USA Saturn square USA Sun that also took place in '68, (we currently are in the Saturn conjunction cycle of USA Sun as everyone is so aware), I happened upon a note on another list about LBJ. He announced that he "would not seek re election or another term in office" when, lo and behold, he was having a Saturn return and T. Jupiter was on his natal mars. Hmmmm....Ok perhaps it's wishful thinking on my part. I consider myself a student of this stuff and am much better at looking at things in retropect as opposed to making predictions. Yet, the chart comparisons of planets making major transits to Bush II chart are fascinating.

Totally different people, totally different souls using the blueprint of planets, but interesting none the less. Time will tell. LBJ birth date is Aug 27 1908, Stonewall TX. I don't have a reliable time, only a 4:18 am (?) from an old Michael Erlewine Book of Charts.

Morgana, before I forget, I am wishing for your "wellness" and healing. Hestia, thankyou for sharing your story. My cousin's name is on that monument as well. How people forget the lessons of 'Nam totally amazes me. Yet we have a world of a generation of people born beyond it, so there it goes. Must be part of the process of "evolution." I still have trouble comprehending that big of picture though, unless I detach.

And, just one last thought. The Nicholas Berg story, the detaining of him, the misinformation, my god, it is all so Mercury Rx. And we have a President/pResident who was elected on a Mercury RX. He and his administration have continued to misinform US ever since.

Peace All

It's possible that Bush might announce he won't run again...it's possible he never intended to be anything but one term, by the way he rushed the
tax cuts to his friends, raided the treasury, rushed us into war where his father;s munitions company was the 5th largest supplier, scuttled all progressive programs that have been in effect since Roosevelt, obtained the oil pipelines, scuttled environmental laws, and he has almost succeeded in overturning Roe vs Wade.
He did it all quickly , rushing, so it does seem
it's very possible. He accomplished all he wanted
and plucked America and us.

It;s not like we didnt know it would happen. It;'s just that we never expected it to be this bad.

pat, thanks for the link (yikes!!!)
skylurker, sorry, no birds, but some nice trails

First....................Morgana............love peace and healing to you.
Second, thanks again to the writers of the wonderful articles.
I have printed them all out and put them in a notebook for referring to.
Being a TV watcher, I can see the intensity with which the Rebugs are trying to discredit Kerry! They are trying to portray him as a "flip flopper" on issues.......( pathetic as the Bu$hys have done nothing but flip flop on their handling of Iraq since it became apparent it wasn't working!) Karen Hughes probably sits Georgie down daily and makes him write on a blackboard 100 times "I am a man of conviction." The entire crowd must have flunked Psychology 101, because they seem to be blind to the underlying unconscious meaning of a lot of their words!
Is there anything that says Kerry can't pull a G Bu$h once he's in office, and using the executive power which, thanks to this administration is more than it used to be, to push through programs that will improve the country? If I were him, I would be playing my cards pretty close to my vest too. My intuition tells me that he has integrity, an inside view of the W's character, the Scull/Bones thing, and like his daring rescue in Nam, & throwing the ribbons/ medals over the fence at the White House, he is galloping forward, in true Sag. fashion to rescue the American Democracy! Don't forget he has seen Howard Dean metaphorically drawn & quartered & hung on the bridge; and is trying to avoid the same fate. If it gets him into the White House it's OK by me! Extreme times call for extreme measures!
Who here is meditating every AM at 7:00 and sending good vibes to the world? It is very necessary..............to block the narrow minded & wood heads out there!
A large portion of our population are too young to have experienced how repressively the communist Soviet Government behaved prior to 1980 or earlier, and they have been empowered by our big corporations, beyond their wisdom as young people, so they are taken by the glamerous facade put on by the Repug stage show! If any of you can reach through with the truth, that would be useful.
THE HUMMINGBIRDS are back for the summer, they were late, & I was fearful for them....such a long way for such tiny creatures to fly, and how much of a wasteland is there between here & there?
Even they are quarrelsome this year....there seem to be 2 males & only 1 female. The males are trying to block each other from the feeder! I was planning to be diligent in uprooting the dandelions in my yard this year, until I noticed the hummingbirds feeding from them. Even the humblest of us has a function!!!
Barbara; I guess we aren't related, my ancesters, cleared out of France earlier, & immigrated to London, where Pierre was hired to be secretary to the NY Gov., Queen Anne's cousin Lord Edward Hyde, because of his excellent pensmanship. A great story for my 2 eldest Grandsons who tho artistically talented, are struggling with writing in school!
Lastly, I am having trouble with my computer. Every time i try to do a MoveOn or True Majority action; I am disconnected
and given a "network error"! there is a great difficulty in getting connected again! I have a hotmail e-mail account!
It could just be my computer, which needs defraging & the pram zapped. I will keep you posted, as I have to take it to the tech tomorrow .
Pat QOP

See the article "Ralph Nader, Suicide Bomber" on Village Voice.com.

...there is no limit to GOP chutzpah...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/05/13/MNGFQ6KFBJ1.DTL&type=printable

I'd just like to say that if the aliens do make contact and they assume that our President represents the best and brightest among us we are in serious trouble.
~D

"There is a temperament, there is a nature there, there is an essence to his character and his capacity to be a leader that is defective and prone to political opportunism, this almost insatiable desire to achieve higher office at the expense of what is best for this nation."

I wonder who most people would think this quote was referring to if quizzed.
Amazing how everything they come out with lately is mirrored right back by the universe.

Bill Clinton is back whoohoo!

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=520732

He's back, and this time Clinton is getting personal about Bush
By Rupert Cornwell in Washington
13 May 2004

The final sentence of his memoirs completed, Bill Clinton is back, ripping into President George Bush's handling of the crisis in Iraq, and signalling that he intends to play a role in the race for the White House.

Liberated from literature, the old master is limbering up anew for political action. On Tuesday evening, he ripped into his successor for neglecting the real menace of Osama bin Laden to go after Saddam Hussein, and for gratuitously turning world opinion against America.

"We had unanimous support for going into Afghanistan, they [the United Nations] participated in the hunt for Bin Laden and supported giving an ultimatum to Saddam Hussein to open his country to weapons inspections," Mr Clinton told a business gathering in New York on Tuesday night. "We were in good shape. What happened?"

What happened was the Bush team's obsession with toppling Saddam, he claimed, regardless of the facts about Iraq's WMD and Baghdad's non-involvement in the 11 September attacks.

~ SNIP ~

The Pope is expected to meet with Bush June 4th and tell him ......
http://iafrica.com/news/worldnews/322583.htm
Interesting timing in relation to the transits around that time.
Gee, assuming Bush really believes God talks to him, I wonder how this might affect Bush on an internal level if the Pope tells him he really screwed up.

This is an intriguing story regarding old FBI records. I wonder what revelations it may bring.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040513.wnazi0513/BNStory/International

Blumenthal's keyboard is on fire, ya'll. Don't miss this one.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2004/05/13/resign/index1.html

This is an interesting bit over on CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/12/war.dot.com/index.html

Carlos Watson talks about Laura Bush possibly? influencing the President on Rumsfeld, this war being the first internet war, "war dot com" and Steve Jobs signing on for Kerry as an informal campaign advisor.

Morgana, great to see your imput on the board. Many blessings!

Pat:

I wish I had your dandelion problems. Here in
West-Central Florida, there is so much sand, I
never see any dandlions!!! When young, they are
delicious in salads; when older, if you don't
like the bitterness, you can blanch them and use
them as any other greens. They are especially
good chopped and used stirred into beaten eggs
for an omelet. The roots, roasted and ground,
and mixed with coffee, are a great additive to
ground coffee. Great for the liver and digestive
system, among other things.

I could go on and on, but I'll refrain myself....
I'm a Master Gardner who has had to live in an
apartment in the last three years. I am having
a time time adjusting.....I am having a very
difficult time growing herbs, but my Phaelanopsis
Orchids do just fine in my Western exposure. Any
hints will be welcome.

Sorry if I took up precious space. It seemed a
welcome break from these horrid current events.

Pat, I am not an envious person, but I do envy
YOU for having the outdoors. And the humming-
birds too.....

Not really, please enjoy them for me also.

I am having problems with my computer too. In my
case, I think it's Mercury going over the recent
Solar Eclipse and squaring my N Pluto in the 9th.

Love, Joy and Peace

Kerry enlisting Steve Jobs (Apple founder and CEO) could be a real turning point in his campaign.

I have a MAC at home and use a PC at work, so I'm very aware of their technological differences. I have given my MAC a name because I swear the thing is about one half~step away from being a sentient being. Seriously. If Kerry will listen to what Jobs has to say his campaign could communicate a real space~age, enlightening, attractive quality to the public.

I'm going out on a limb here, but the parallels are too intense to ignore. Consider:

At one point in our evolution, our ancestors and Neanderthal man shared common space. One branch evolved to become us. The other became obsolete.

In the world of technology, MACs and PCs share a common space.

In the world of politics, Progressives and Conservatives share a common space.

Draw your own conclusions.
~D

Go vote!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4970228/

If the presidential election were held this week, who would you vote for? * 5902 responses


George W. Bush
24%

John Kerry
72%

Ralph Nader
4%

Morgana:

It's great to have your input. Please keep it up!

I think Bill Clinton is our best good-will ambassa
dor in this world. Everyone, everywhere still
loves and admires Bill Clinton around the Globe.
And why not? (his 'faults' are Hillary's problem,
not ours). Look how much he's done for the AIDS
cause alone. Words are cheap, it's action that
counts.....

I heard his pre-publication book sales are already
topping "Harry Potter"....More power to him.

Take good care of yourself, Morgana. You're in my
prayers.

Corleonis, I am on the FL northeast coast--found out early that the easiest way to garden here is with containers. You can kill yourself trying to water vegies planted in sand through a drought. Anyhow, it is great to have a sunny balcony. Suggest the wonderful "grape" tomatoes--they are prolific and so tasty they never make it into the house here. Delicious even without salt. Gardening is wonderfully adavisticly satisfying.

I agree that Steve Jobs can do the job for Kerry, Dommael but don't think pc's will go away anytime soon - they seem like they're more popular than Macs for whatever reasons. And, since Progressive and Conservative are terms that can be applied in many different ways, depending on one's POV, wouldn't it be wonderful if they morphed into Progressive Conservatives one day, a forward thinking group with integrity who knew how to conserve what was good and valuable.

BTW, I like your name very much. Does it have a meaning? I'm also interested in the derivation of Corleonis. And I think Morgana is definitely a beautiful name - I know it has Celtic/Arthurian roots.

Sharon

"Progressive Conservatives" ~ I LIKE it!

The name Dommael is a variation of Domiel, who is one of the Fallen Angels. This particular entity is said to be a watcher at the gates of Hell, the reflection of Saint Peter. Interestingly, it's said that he has no keys, because the gates of hell are never locked and are open for business 24/7.

My ancestral clan was founded by Fat Duncan at the Battle of Bannockburn. On my mother's side, I am related to Benjamin Rush, one of the authors of the Declaration of Independence, and the Father of American Psychiatry.

That's me.

~D

Pat, I think you are working with the wrong medium there (mashed potatoes). Try refried beans instead.

I just saw the encouraging comments by Beverly and Sharon K. about my political, economic and societal world forecasts. Thank you ladies. I've just reorganized the website www.vedicpredictiveastrology.com. On the Celestial Wheel page is a new daily log, free to the public. Today's entries are revealing. Readers will find complimentary Forecasts on the Forecasts and Archives pages. For those who wish to receive these indepth Forecasts, subscription information is also on the Forecasts page.
Thank you again. Back to writing.
Doug Riemer

Sharon Katz;

Corleonis is the literal Latin translation of
"Heart of the Lion".

Corleonis derives from 'The Heart of the Lion" or
"Regulus", the brightest star in the Constellation
LEO. Not only am I a Leo, but my most elevated
planet is Mercury, conjunct said Star. The great
Astrologer and Occultist ALAN LEO had Ascendant
and Saturn conjunct this Star and often I would
find one of his books during a transit to it. I
was lucky enough to collect them all, including
three very old ones. How is that for proof that
Astrology works, even beyond the grave?

Starflower: Hello... Thanks for your interest in my inquiries about W. Clark. Welcome to the discussions here! I also use the Rescue Remedy too, in addition to many other flower and gem essences. Marvelous stuff. They are expensive but I have never had to take any perscription drugs!! Starflower, did you read the prediction from the link I posted originally? It is from Jan 2004 prediction of 4 psychics for a newsletter called Aquarian Solutions or something like that? I'll find it for you with Google if you need all of what Elizabeth Joyce said about Presidential election U.S. 2004. It is completely different from what she says on her website. I am not a member of her site, so only get the first page that is free. I saw your post and went right to post you so any other comments since your 4:35 post I haven't seen yet. Hope I am not duplicating. ALSO ON W. CLARK'S EYES: I agree with you about the eyes being the window to the soul. However, the most remarkable thing to me about his beautiful eyes is HOW FAR APART THEY ARE SPACED. In training I have had from "Three in One Concepts" (balancing body, mind, and spirit) one of their programs called Structure/Function details how physical features reflect specific emotional patterns, unique strengths, and weaknesses, etc. His eye feature is call 'FAR SET EYES' This would indicate a person who is able to see the WHOLE picture of most situations.That would be an excellent atribute for any leader to have. Compare this to George Bush's CLOSE SET EYES (CAN'T SEE BEYOND WHAT IS DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF HIM-- MYOPIC Tunnel Vision )- Look at how close set Bush's eyes are. The symbolic reading of his structure/funtion seems to bear out in reality. He is completely unable to see the whole picture in anything. We all respond, all the time, in all relationships, either positively or negatively to other's structure/function. I register "fright" by the close set eyes. I think you should be able to find W. Clark's birthchart on the web somewhere as there was a lot of discussion prior to the Democratic Primary about him and his prospects. I don't know about his ability to lead our nation as I have not studied that much about him. The reason I brought up the W.Clark discussion here, is that I thought it sounded so unlikely and was in direct conflict to other predictions by E.Joyce. I like to mull over the possibilities. Why don't you use some of your astrological studies/learning to apply to your questions about him, and delight us with your comments right here. Also, would love to hear what you think, if anything, about the likelyhood of Clark being President, not V.President. Sorry for all my rambling on and disconnection from subject to subject, I'm trying to rush.

1110 so theres Krankenversicherung and then there is
Krankenversicherung private and dont forget
Krankenversicherung gesetzlich and then again there is always beer

Thanks for that interesting post. It makes great reading! Do you need a payday advance ?

Thanks for that interesting post. It makes great reading! Do you need a cash advance?

Thanks for that interesting post. It makes great reading! Do you need a payday advance?

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